CHRISTIANS

[Sal Paradise]

Re: CHRISTIANS

Well, if Lucifer never had free will, he wouldn't have been able to decide god was a D*ck and act against him. It wouldn't have been in his programming right? Given that he did rebel against god; it seems he has the same "free will" that us humans have (even though the Christians idea of "free will" isn't free will). If humans act against god we get the same outcome - eternal torture with Lucifer. It sounds like to me, hell is always an option to keep you from questioning this guy that calls himself god.

Looking at "god's own word" he's obviously one sadistic, bigoted slave master. The devil may actually be the good guy, after all we don't get the devil's account. Given the character of god from his own book, I don't think it would be out of the realm of possibility that he painted a fictitious account of the devil just to make himself look good. Apart from god calling the devil evil, what actions does he give to back that up. How do we even know Lucifer is in some "lake of fire", he could have been like phuck Yhwh, I'm going to go build up a subdivision for all the souls, with integrity, that won't worship the sadistic, bigoted slave master and we can all live together in luxury. I mean maybe the tree of knowledge was really knowledge of how this entity, calling itself god, is no more powerful than we are (or Lucifer) and has no authority over us that don't give it to him.

Very well said!!!
TWO THUMBS UP TO KLASH!!


Sal

[daved150]

Re: CHRISTIANS

Well, if Lucifer never had free will, he wouldn't have been able to decide god was a D*ck and act against him. It wouldn't have been in his programming right? Given that he did rebel against god; it seems he has the same "free will" that us humans have (even though the Christians idea of "free will" isn't free will). If humans act against god we get the same outcome - eternal torture with Lucifer. It sounds like to me, hell is always an option to keep you from questioning this guy that calls himself god.

Looking at "god's own word" he's obviously one sadistic, bigoted slave master. The devil may actually be the good guy, after all we don't get the devil's account. Given the character of god from his own book, I don't think it would be out of the realm of possibility that he painted a fictitious account of the devil just to make himself look good. Apart from god calling the devil evil, what actions does he give to back that up. How do we even know Lucifer is in some "lake of fire", he could have been like phuck Yhwh, I'm going to go build up a subdivision for all the souls, with integrity, that won't worship the sadistic, bigoted slave master and we can all live together in luxury. I mean maybe the tree of knowledge was really knowledge of how this entity, calling itself god, is no more powerful than we are (or Lucifer) and has no authority over us that don't give it to him.

hmmmm....intresting. so your thinking it just coulda been god's propaganda machine might have been a littile better or a little faster than lucifers, eh? like god just got the word off quicker before lucifer even knew what was going on and BAM...gods the hero of the story. kinda makes lucifer look like a sped.
huh....i'm really leaning towards your wrong...i know thats next to IMPOSSIBLE, but i am leaning that way.....

[Klash]

Re: CHRISTIANS

I will find the write ups, but YES it was founded on Christian Beliefs

lookiing forward to it.

and Yes Muslims believe Jesus was a Prophet- not the SDon of God- if you will read the Koran its speaks of killing the infadels(that would be me and you or at least those who believe Jesus was the Son of God)

Yeah, I know the basic tenants of Islam but what makes their faith inferior? Your just pointing out that Islam condones murdering those who won't submit to Islamic beliefs; is the Christian god so different? Yeah, he doesn't advocate his followers having a hand in the torment of the nonconformists but what he does to nonconformists is worse than any murderer, he throws you into a lake of fire and won't let you die - ever!

[Klash]

Re: CHRISTIANS

hmmmm....intresting. so your thinking it just coulda been god's propaganda machine might have been a littile better or a little faster than lucifers, eh? like god just got the word off quicker before lucifer even knew what was going on and BAM...gods the hero of the story. kinda makes lucifer look like a sped.
huh....i'm really leaning towards your wrong...i know thats next to IMPOSSIBLE, but i am leaning that way.....

Look at how god presents himself - slaughter at Jericho, great drowning (the flood), if you were Egyptian there's a good chance your going to be killed by god, condoning of rape and murder, etc. You seen anything like that associated with Lucifer? I'm just sayin! I mean what the hell did Lucifer do that was so bad - oppose a god, that by his own words defines him as a bigot, or offer a freakin fruit to a naked chick? Come on.

[deepsouth]

Re: CHRISTIANS

lookiing forward to it.


I read this some time back anfd found it very heart taking and I'm not even Jewish:

Judeo-Christian Beliefs Instill Religious Freedom in America
By Rabbi Daniel Lapin, Mar 1, 1999

My Comments: Rabbi Lapin does not mention this directly, but the destruction of religious freedom in the United States, especially our Judeo-Christian principles, is the goal of the liberals because to do would destroy our freedoms. Once religion is removed from our country, the State becomes the new omnipresent and oppressive "God". This, and banning of civilian firearms, is the common tactic that communists and fascists have used throughout history to oppress the people and conquer other nations.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AS last year's holidays fade into Kodak moments, must we once again banish religion back to America's basement? Must we rescind the special dispensation granted every December allowing Americans openly and publicly to embrace the religious values upon which this country was built? While secular humanists dismiss what's left of public religiosity during the holidays as mere superficiality, religious Americans (the vast majority) recognize the holiday season as something much more. It is the last vestige of a public embrace of religion.
As an Orthodox rabbi, I can state, with neither equivocation nor trepidation, that America is a nation founded by believing Christians and based upon broad Judeo-Christian principles. On July 4, 1776, there was no debate among our Founding Fathers over the phrase "endowed by their Creator."

But today's reader, media watcher and certainly the university student could easily be led to believe that our Founding Fathers were concerned with freedom from religion rather than with religious freedom. I have had a graduate student tell me that the phrase from the First Amendment, "no law respecting an establishment of religion," meant that no religious establishment should be respected! How ignorant can one be and still get a degree in higher education?

Our Founding Fathers considered religion the bedrock upon which the nation stood. Declaring in the Constitution that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," was a necessity for the various Christian denominations that made up the United States to be able to live together. The idea that religious beliefs were meant to be excluded from public dialogue is historically insupportable. Yet that is how the establishment clause is interpreted today, to the point where religious men and women are told that they must check their beliefs at the door when they enter the public arena, especially should they seek to hold public office. Just ask George W. Bush, governor of Texas.

Five years ago, Gov. Bush stated his belief that people who do not accept Jesus Christ as a personal savior cannot go to heaven. Since that day, he has been in the crosshairs of the Anti-Defamation League, accused of promoting intolerance toward Jews and other non-Christians, if not being guilty of it himself. As late as November, the ADL was still demanding an apology from Gov. Bush.

But America is based upon a simple premise: Worship as you will, as long as your behavior reflects basic Judeo-Christian values. By condemning Gov. Bush, the ADL is guilty of violating a cornerstone of our republic: freedom of religion. And that means freedom to believe that which you wish regardless of how others may feel about those beliefs. America's promise is that you may not always be allowed to act in accordance with your beliefs; however, you may certainly believe as you choose.

Why should Jews care what Gov. Bush believes anyhow? Ever since the Torah was given on Mount Sinai 3,300 years ago, Jewish emphasis has been on deed, not thought. We believe that only God knows what is in man's mind. Indeed, all too often we barely understand what is in our own mind let alone someone else's mind. For this reason, we leave it to God to judge motivation; we are instructed to judge one another purely on the basis of actions.

In the book The Hiding Place, Corrie ten Boom relates how she and her family hid Jews during the Holocaust because they fervently believed that their Christian faith demanded nothing less. Upon being arrested by the ****s, Mr. Caspar ten Boom, a revered Dutch citizen well into his 80s during the Holocaust, was told that he would be released if he would promise to stop his activities in sheltering Jews. He responded, "If I go home today, tomorrow I will open my door again to any man in need who knocks." Shortly thereafter Caspar ten Boom died, isolated from his family in a Gestapo prison. Every other member of the ten Boom family died in the death camps, except for Corrie. As Jews, we should not care that the source of the ten Boom family's bravery was their belief in Jesus nor that The Hiding Place celebrates this strong belief.

(Unfortunately, many Jews do care, since this moving and beautiful book is tragically banished from the Holocaust Museum.) As the Torah instructs us, the only way to judge the ten Booms is by their heroic actions.

The only way to judge Christian politicians and religious Christians is by their actions. Jews should not only accept the basic Christian nature of this nation, but thank God for it. Jews have never been welcomed anywhere as we are welcomed here, and it is only the religiosity of Christian Americans that can ensure this warm welcome continues.

The American Jewish community has lived for a historically unparalleled length of time with no pogroms or massacres, with no official government sanctions, without even a special Jewish tax levied against us. A cursory overview of Jewish history will reveal this peaceful state to be highly unusual. I am convinced that Jewish safety and prosperity in our nation is due to the uniquely American combination of firm Christian belief without a specific church's reigning hand.

The majority of mainstream, heartland Americans hold a deep commitment to Judeo-Christian morals. The graciousness extended by most religious Christians toward their Jewish friends is not the result of having been intimidated by those friends into a mood of sullen acceptance. Rather, it is a wholehearted embrace based on belief in God's words to Abraham: "I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curse you I will curse" (Genesis 12:3). Many Americans revere those words because they revere God Almighty who spoke them. American Jews have always been the beneficiaries of that reverence.

I wholeheartedly believe that the joyous serenity of living as an American Jew is safe not because of governmental secularism but only for as long as most Americans continue to subscribe to that biblical belief. It is only due to this belief on the part of so many Americans that I could easily imagine any anti-Semitic governmental decree being widely flouted by a majority of Americans.

In America today, I have access to everything I require in order to observe my religion fully. Not only can I follow all the tenets of my faith, but I can even wear my kippah (religious head covering) when addressing Congress because of a deep respect for religious practice in this country. Most Americans, particularly religious Christians, go out of their way to accommodate religious needs. On the other hand, there are many secular leftists who find things such as ritual slaughter of animals for meat in accordance with the biblical rules for Kashruth -- the Jewish dietary laws -- or circumcision by a mohel (Jewish circumcisers) highly offensive. Throughout Jewish history, though never in America, each of these religious practices has been outlawed at one or more times.

As a Jew, I am extremely grateful to be living in a country that, though founded without one Jewish signature on its Declaration of Independence, has legally granted me full religious expression. I am worried that my grandchildren may not have the same freedoms, not because of Christians, but because of a removal of Judeo- Christian values from this country.

This is why, as an Orthodox rabbi, I have no trepidation in noting that America is based on the Christian faith of its founders. As a Jew living in America, I need it to remain that way.






Yeah, I know the basic tenants of Islam but what makes their faith inferior? Your just pointing out that Islam condones murdering those who won't submit to Islamic beliefs; is the Christian god so different? Yeah, he doesn't advocate his followers having a hand in the torment of the nonconformists but what he does to nonconformists is worse than any murderer, he throws you into a lake of fire and won't let you die - ever!

Ok as for this- you keep reverting to God throwing you into a lake of fire- FALSE- God offers heaven to all if you choose, but if then yes to hell it is, but ITS YOUR CHOICE he doesn't send you there- rather you send yourself.

God flooded the earth and it is written that he won't do that again- I serve a God of Love not giving me the right to go kill someone because he doesn't believe as I do- so yes I would say it not really inferior, but rather wrong all together according to my beliefs

[deepsouth]

Re: CHRISTIANS

klash I will say this - I am jealous of many of the Muslim followers- they pray(as I understand it) 5 times a day. If only Christians(not matter the faith) would spend that much time praying and studying the word, we would be a better Nation-IMHO

[daved150]

Re: CHRISTIANS

Look at how god presents himself - slaughter at Jericho, great drowning (the flood), if you were Egyptian there's a good chance your going to be killed by god, condoning of rape and murder, etc. You seen anything like that associated with Lucifer? I'm just sayin! I mean what the hell did Lucifer do that was so bad - oppose a god, that by his own words defines him as a bigot, or offer a freakin fruit to a naked chick? Come on.

what??? everyone fuks up!!! he was young, angry...lashed out...it happens. dude, dont dwell...it'll eat you up inside!
but...thats one thing he didnt do...he didnt give any fruit to naked people!!! so...there's that.


actually...i think all of that is associated with lucifer.

[daved150]

Re: CHRISTIANS

klash I will say this - I am jealous of many of the Muslim followers- they pray(as I understand it) 5 times a day. If only Christians(not matter the faith) would spend that much time praying and studying the word, we would be a better Nation-IMHO

ummmm...yea...it's worked out pretty well for the muslim nations so far, huh?

[Klash]

Re: CHRISTIANS

I read this some time back anfd found it very heart taking and I'm not even Jewish:

Judeo-Christian Beliefs Instill Religious Freedom in America
By Rabbi Daniel Lapin, Mar 1, 1999

My Comments: Rabbi Lapin does not mention this directly, but the destruction of religious freedom in the United States, especially our Judeo-Christian principles, is the goal of the liberals because to do would destroy our freedoms. Once religion is removed from our country, the State becomes the new omnipresent and oppressive "God". This, and banning of civilian firearms, is the common tactic that communists and fascists have used throughout history to oppress the people and conquer other nations.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AS last year's holidays fade into Kodak moments, must we once again banish religion back to America's basement? Must we rescind the special dispensation granted every December allowing Americans openly and publicly to embrace the religious values upon which this country was built? While secular humanists dismiss what's left of public religiosity during the holidays as mere superficiality, religious Americans (the vast majority) recognize the holiday season as something much more. It is the last vestige of a public embrace of religion.
As an Orthodox rabbi, I can state, with neither equivocation nor trepidation, that America is a nation founded by believing Christians and based upon broad Judeo-Christian principles. On July 4, 1776, there was no debate among our Founding Fathers over the phrase "endowed by their Creator."

But today's reader, media watcher and certainly the university student could easily be led to believe that our Founding Fathers were concerned with freedom from religion rather than with religious freedom. I have had a graduate student tell me that the phrase from the First Amendment, "no law respecting an establishment of religion," meant that no religious establishment should be respected! How ignorant can one be and still get a degree in higher education?

Our Founding Fathers considered religion the bedrock upon which the nation stood. Declaring in the Constitution that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," was a necessity for the various Christian denominations that made up the United States to be able to live together. The idea that religious beliefs were meant to be excluded from public dialogue is historically insupportable. Yet that is how the establishment clause is interpreted today, to the point where religious men and women are told that they must check their beliefs at the door when they enter the public arena, especially should they seek to hold public office. Just ask George W. Bush, governor of Texas.

Five years ago, Gov. Bush stated his belief that people who do not accept Jesus Christ as a personal savior cannot go to heaven. Since that day, he has been in the crosshairs of the Anti-Defamation League, accused of promoting intolerance toward Jews and other non-Christians, if not being guilty of it himself. As late as November, the ADL was still demanding an apology from Gov. Bush.

But America is based upon a simple premise: Worship as you will, as long as your behavior reflects basic Judeo-Christian values. By condemning Gov. Bush, the ADL is guilty of violating a cornerstone of our republic: freedom of religion. And that means freedom to believe that which you wish regardless of how others may feel about those beliefs. America's promise is that you may not always be allowed to act in accordance with your beliefs; however, you may certainly believe as you choose.

Why should Jews care what Gov. Bush believes anyhow? Ever since the Torah was given on Mount Sinai 3,300 years ago, Jewish emphasis has been on deed, not thought. We believe that only God knows what is in man's mind. Indeed, all too often we barely understand what is in our own mind let alone someone else's mind. For this reason, we leave it to God to judge motivation; we are instructed to judge one another purely on the basis of actions.

In the book The Hiding Place, Corrie ten Boom relates how she and her family hid Jews during the Holocaust because they fervently believed that their Christian faith demanded nothing less. Upon being arrested by the ****s, Mr. Caspar ten Boom, a revered Dutch citizen well into his 80s during the Holocaust, was told that he would be released if he would promise to stop his activities in sheltering Jews. He responded, "If I go home today, tomorrow I will open my door again to any man in need who knocks." Shortly thereafter Caspar ten Boom died, isolated from his family in a Gestapo prison. Every other member of the ten Boom family died in the death camps, except for Corrie. As Jews, we should not care that the source of the ten Boom family's bravery was their belief in Jesus nor that The Hiding Place celebrates this strong belief.

(Unfortunately, many Jews do care, since this moving and beautiful book is tragically banished from the Holocaust Museum.) As the Torah instructs us, the only way to judge the ten Booms is by their heroic actions.

The only way to judge Christian politicians and religious Christians is by their actions. Jews should not only accept the basic Christian nature of this nation, but thank God for it. Jews have never been welcomed anywhere as we are welcomed here, and it is only the religiosity of Christian Americans that can ensure this warm welcome continues.

The American Jewish community has lived for a historically unparalleled length of time with no pogroms or massacres, with no official government sanctions, without even a special Jewish tax levied against us. A cursory overview of Jewish history will reveal this peaceful state to be highly unusual. I am convinced that Jewish safety and prosperity in our nation is due to the uniquely American combination of firm Christian belief without a specific church's reigning hand.

The majority of mainstream, heartland Americans hold a deep commitment to Judeo-Christian morals. The graciousness extended by most religious Christians toward their Jewish friends is not the result of having been intimidated by those friends into a mood of sullen acceptance. Rather, it is a wholehearted embrace based on belief in God's words to Abraham: "I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curse you I will curse" (Genesis 12:3). Many Americans revere those words because they revere God Almighty who spoke them. American Jews have always been the beneficiaries of that reverence.

I wholeheartedly believe that the joyous serenity of living as an American Jew is safe not because of governmental secularism but only for as long as most Americans continue to subscribe to that biblical belief. It is only due to this belief on the part of so many Americans that I could easily imagine any anti-Semitic governmental decree being widely flouted by a majority of Americans.

In America today, I have access to everything I require in order to observe my religion fully. Not only can I follow all the tenets of my faith, but I can even wear my kippah (religious head covering) when addressing Congress because of a deep respect for religious practice in this country. Most Americans, particularly religious Christians, go out of their way to accommodate religious needs. On the other hand, there are many secular leftists who find things such as ritual slaughter of animals for meat in accordance with the biblical rules for Kashruth -- the Jewish dietary laws -- or circumcision by a mohel (Jewish circumcisers) highly offensive. Throughout Jewish history, though never in America, each of these religious practices has been outlawed at one or more times.

As a Jew, I am extremely grateful to be living in a country that, though founded without one Jewish signature on its Declaration of Independence, has legally granted me full religious expression. I am worried that my grandchildren may not have the same freedoms, not because of Christians, but because of a removal of Judeo- Christian values from this country.

This is why, as an Orthodox rabbi, I have no trepidation in noting that America is based on the Christian faith of its founders. As a Jew living in America, I need it to remain that way.

Come on man, you couldn't summarize that $hit!
I've heard them all before. I was expecting the whole founders personal letters to be included.
Anyway, first counter-argument: how can you have "freedom of religion" without "freedom from [a state endorsed] religion"?
Second counter-argument: "endowed by our creator" does not in any way state, suggest or imply a Christian god or even a god at all; "creator" could refer to a pantheist's god or what Einstein called Spinoza's (1632-1677) god.

Ok as for this- you keep reverting to God throwing you into a lake of fire- FALSE- God offers heaven to all if you choose, but if then yes to hell it is, but ITS YOUR CHOICE he doesn't send you there- rather you send yourself.

O.k. so your god gives you a choice and the path you take directs you to your eternal location and that you say is free will.
That's cool just a few problems. Your god created man as a rational being. Your god created pain and pleasure, heaven and hell, and then he created a morality code that defined man as immoral (a sinner) - just by existing. And this is the most sadistic part of it all. He created the opportunity to be forgiven but rational man (that he created) had to resign his logic and blindly believe a single belief that is completely irrational with the rest of our reality and if he didn't, that pain and hell he created are going to be intertwined forever.

Now as far as this Christian "free will" thing.
You and 50 others are captured and put before a German firing squad. They tell you, "you have free will, as long as you promise to be Obedient to ******, you can live in "heavenly" germany - otherwise you will be shot."

If an armed robber tells you to give him his wallet; your options are to give him your wallet or getting shot.

Same d@mn thing. It's not free will, it's coercion. Just because the man with the power say's it's free will doesn't mean it is.

God flooded the earth and it is written that he won't do that again- I serve a God of Love not giving me the right to go kill someone because he doesn't believe as I do- so yes I would say it not really inferior, but rather wrong all together according to my beliefs

Your god is omniscient. Why is genocide moral at one point in history and then at another point in history it is not? Your god loved killing people back in the day? What's changed? His mind, that would imply he is learning and is not omniscient.

[Sal Paradise]

Re: CHRISTIANS

I like that we can have these discussions -
And here's a bit more....

But first - - let's keep this as civil as can be everyone. It seems it may be slipping a tiny bit.
It's not going to prove positive if we start the finger pointing of "your GOD did this" or "their GOD does that"

Speak you mind - state what you believe and substantiate it with reason - I would say fact but there really isn't much in the realm of "Faith" that can be fact. So let's keep it civil while were asking questions - and try not to be accusatory.

Sal -good post Bro- as I've said in the past- I respect your view. You know- at the end of the day we won't actually know who is correct until death- of course then it will be to late and there is no turning back. Your view is your writting the book and my view is I'm reading the book(Bible)- but we both have faith that we are correct- so at least we can agree on faith- thats a start!

Now here's something to think about and you may have already thought this or others may have mentioned it.
But we when talk about faith and our GOD - there is no way to know.
So if you're being true to what is is you believe - regardless of it being a book in a library or the Bible or anyof the other versions of what heaven may be to others of faith...would it not makes sense that their "heaven" would be as they envision it?
Suppose a person of some south american tribe believed in GOD - but their faith was different than ours and as such thier heaven would be different too.
Suppose their heaven would be a reincarnation of their soul into that of a mighty oak tree...They are a very faithful and spiritual person and followed as their faith instructed.
Would GOD not find it suitable to allow them the heaven of their choice and faith and simply reincarnate them into such said oak tree?

It simply goes back to if a person truly believes in what they do and follows their faith in GOD - whatever version of GOD that may be - wouldn't their heaven also be as they believe?

After all they were a good follower of their faith and led a good life - why would their version of heaven be the same as yours or mine?


Sal

[Klash]

Re: CHRISTIANS

I like that we can have these discussions -
And here's a bit more....

But first - - let's keep this as civil as can be everyone. It seems it may be slipping a tiny bit.
It's not going to prove positive if we start the finger pointing of "your GOD did this" or "their GOD does that"

Speak you mind - state what you believe and substantiate it with reason - I would say fact but there really isn't much in the realm of "Faith" that can be fact. So let's keep it civil while were asking questions - and try not to be accusatory.





Now here's something to think about and you may have already thought this or others may have mentioned it.
But we when talk about faith and our GOD - there is no way to know.
So if you're being true to what is is you believe - regardless of it being a book in a library or the Bible or anyof the other versions of what heaven may be to others of faith...would it not makes sense that their "heaven" would be as they envision it?
Suppose a person of some south american tribe believed in GOD - but their faith was different than ours and as such thier heaven would be different too.
Suppose their heaven would be a reincarnation of their soul into that of a mighty oak tree...They are a very faithful and spiritual person and followed as their faith instructed.
Would GOD not find it suitable to allow them the heaven of their choice and faith and simply reincarnate them into such said oak tree?

It simply goes back to if a person truly believes in what they do and follows their faith in GOD - whatever version of GOD that may be - wouldn't their heaven also be as they believe?

After all they were a good follower of their faith and led a good life - why would their version of heaven be the same as yours or mine?


Sal

If "there is no way to know" what faith or god is correct, why possess a belief in either? Instead of suggesting everyone's belief in heaven is right, why not dismiss all belief's in heaven?

[Sal Paradise]

Re: CHRISTIANS

If "there is no way to know" what faith or god is correct, why possess a belief in either? Instead of suggesting everyone's belief in heaven is right, why not dismiss all belief's in heaven?

I'm OK with that too.
Sure we can dismiss the entire notion of heaven and hell along with everything else.
I really have no problem with that either.

But given the that there is choice - and it all comes down to choice - if a "version" of heaven can be or can't be - I simply choose that there can.

You may ask why - I would ask why not.
It simply allows a faith to be had in something more than we see regardless of what that is.
The church of Sal or the church daved150 or Deepsouth church of the written bible - it doesn't matter - why can't they all be right???

It seems to make no difference really - One can believe in something greater than this material world as we know it and if their faith is in that - they will ultimately come to it.
If a person's faith or belief is that there is nothing except the flesh - when they die - then that's what they'll have.
It's not right or wrong - it's not heaven or hell.
It is what it is.

I don't for one minute think that a person who doesn't believe in GOD is going to hell. If he doesn't believe in it - and the only way for it to even exist - (it being GOD HEAVEN OR HELL) is to believe in it - then they have nothing to worry about.
When they die - they die.

I love your posts Klash - they are TOP NOTCH!!


I find issue with those who say if you don't believe in god then you're going to hell as much as I have issue with those who don't believe in god say to those there is no heaven.

It all comes down to what it is you believe in and if you're being true to yourself and live your life as such - you will reap the rewards of that.

There is always faith which is nothing more than belief.
Some have faith in GOD
Some have faith that there is no GOD.

To me and they way I believe it doesn't matter which end of the spectrum you're on.
If you don't believe then nothing that applies - heaven or hell will be the end result.
If you do believe then you better do your best to make sure you end up on the good end of that scale.

It's as you said Klash - if this GOD is going to absolutely punish someone for not believing in him then it is no different that the guy robbing you or the extortionist with a gun - and he deserves no such respect or praise.

A person has to have faith freely.
If not then what's the F'ing point?

And that my friends sums up another reason the bible and the fury of hell is a big bunch of bunk with me.

You can't force someone into faith with fear of eternal damnation.


Sal

[Klash]

Re: CHRISTIANS

You eastern philosophy guys, I love how you guys are all inclusive but hate arguing against that "everyone is right" position.

Just one point of correction. I do not have FAITH that there is no god. It is not up to me to prove a negative. If I say that there is an invisible pink elephant, named bob, sitting right beside me - you do not have faith that there is no bob. It is up to me to prove that bob exists; if I do not, a rational man should not believe that Bob does exist. Same with god. When the first human described the origins of our existence as a result of a god and then failed to prove it, the idea of god should have been dismissed. Instead it was another way for some men to collect other men's wealth. So, I dismiss the concept of god because it cannot be proven. I will speculate about god but I will never believe in him without evidence.

[deepsouth]

Re: CHRISTIANS

ummmm...yea...it's worked out pretty well for the muslim nations so far, huh?

Fastest growing in the world right now-they said they would take over and wouldn't have to use force- justlook up their reproductive rates compared to ours

[deepsouth]

Re: CHRISTIANS

You eastern philosophy guys, I love how you guys are all inclusive but hate arguing against that "everyone is right" position.

Just one point of correction. I do not have FAITH that there is no god. It is not up to me to prove a negative. If I say that there is an invisible pink elephant, named bob, sitting right beside me - you do not have faith that there is no bob. It is up to me to prove that bob exists; if I do not, a rational man should not believe that Bob does exist. Same with god. When the first human described the origins of our existence as a result of a god and then failed to prove it, the idea of god should have been dismissed. Instead it was another way for some men to collect other men's wealth. So, I dismiss the concept of god because it cannot be proven. I will speculate about god but I will never believe in him without evidence.

If thats what you believe- thats your right and I respect that Bro- I'm not here to argue with you nor try and make you believe what I believe. I was asked questions to which I have tried to answer to the best of my abilities as a meere man- do I have all the answers ??NO, but I can't see air either- I just know its there- I can only see the effects of air when it moves, nothing more. According to the Bible -God created everything and in the order its listed I believe he created man last -then he had a day of rest. The way I see it- if he had needed our help he would have created us earlier, but apparently he is far smarter than us and didn't need our imput on what he created. So "As I See It"- we don't have the mental capasity to understand nor need to try and figure out God- He Just Is.