CHRISTIANS

[deepsouth]

Re: CHRISTIANS

This is where theists unnecessarily compound the equation. You state something cannot come from nothing, you give examples of flesh, air earth, thought and energy. You state god is greater than these things, he is the creator of these things and thus he must even be more complex than these things but yet he is a "something" that came from nothing that you can accept, or you either believe in an eternal hierarchy of gods but then there is no initial creator and you wind up with a reality that always has been, it just contains god after god, after god. Why not just eliminate what we don't know and state the universe exists and maybe it always has.

Klash- I like this post so I will answer with a question- I state God is the creator of everything and you say that something can't come from nothing, but here is my question or questions: *Please don't take this as an attack in any way- I'm truely curious your views and answers-

1- If something can come from nothing - then where did everything start- what is your view on this? do you truely believe it was an amebea? I have the Bible that states the God created it- what do you base your theory on?

something has to be the begining nothing starts from nothing it has to be something

[Sal Paradise]

Re: CHRISTIANS

Thats just my point- I have no problem beleiving C.C. sailed over here like I have no problem beleiving Jesus is the son of God and the Bible is truth. I wasn't there to personally witness either, but I have Faith they took place. Beleive me- I respect where everyone is coming from, I just don't understand why its so difficult to put thier faith in a higher power. It doesn't make you less of a man- less successful- less likeable- less ambitious. It doesn't mean you can't enjoy life or be the happy go lucky person you are.
Look- I respect whatever it is you believe and I'm just as curious as you as why you are why you beleive the way you do so please don't take anything I say out of context- this is the first time I have been able to have a civil discussion with peeps without someone going off the deep end

Right on brother!!!

And very well said!
As I've mentioned the reasons- both from questions and answers I've explored - as best I can, at this point how I have come to the stage I'm at -

Is there something that enlightened you to having the faith you do today?
Was it concious decison or did some outside influence impact your life to having faith in something more?


Sal

[Sal Paradise]

Re: CHRISTIANS

Klash- I like this post so I will answer with a question- I state God is the creator of everything and you say that something can't come from nothing, but here is my question or questions: *Please don't take this as an attack in any way- I'm truely curious your views and answers-

1- If something can come from nothing - then where did everything start- what is your view on this? do you truely believe it was an amebea? I have the Bible that states the God created it- what do you base your theory on?

something has to be the begining nothing starts from nothing it has to be something

I think what Klash is saying is that if GOD can always be and is somethign that started from nothing - why can't everything else?
Why is GOD starting from nothing any different than a rock?

If one is to say GOD has always been - then why can't a rock or the enegry that makes us move, breath and think have always been also?

I think it's a good question and forces one to think and explain why they believe the way they do.
Everyone should be able to explain why they have the faith that they do - not simply becasue "that's the way it is".

I lost a lot of respect for those claiming to be of spiritual fatih when they could not explain why they believed the way they did.


It's like when explaining how GOD always is and was - is like saying to the little kid "It's MAGIC" and I don't have to explain it. When all along we either don't know or don't want to say in fear of revealing the magic trick and losing the upper hand.

No different than when my grandfather used to pull a quarter out of my ear.
It was MAGIC!! He didn't want to explain it because it would have lost it's mysticism.


Sal

[deepsouth]

Re: CHRISTIANS

Right on brother!!!

And very well said!
As I've mentioned the reasons- both from questions and answers I've explored - as best I can, at this point how I have come to the stage I'm at -

Is there something that enlightened you to having the faith you do today?
Was it concious decison or did some outside influence impact your life to having faith in something more?


Sal

I tell you Bro- I was an outlaw most of my younger years and always thought I had the world by the tail, but at some point I was let down by putting my faith in people. They always failed me- including myself. I said to myself- There has to be something more". I walked away from Jesus many times, but always found myself coming back to him. There are sooo many scrpitures I could quote that just touched my heart- that I knew no matter how bad I was and no matter what I did, if I repented that God would forgive me and love me unconditionally(unlike man). Then I started taking a good hard look at the world and the way things are headed- increased drug use- children direspecting thier parents-kids using foul language at a young age- kids having sex and becoming pregnant at a young age- how now regular TV shows nudity when my kids are watching(and people think thats OK)just the morals and values of people today and you know I want more for myself-my wife- my kids. The Bibles core principles set the groundwork for the way I want my children and family to conduct themselves. I just want to go back to the way things used to be- We said the Pledge of Aliangence and prayed before class everymorning- we were held accountable for our actions and we were man enough to admit our mistakes- we played outside till the streetlights came on and didn't worry about the neighbor raping our kids- when I sneezed people said God Bless You- when you stood by someone you said hello and just didn't ignore them- just small stuff like that

[Klash]

Re: CHRISTIANS

Couple of comments/questions....

Hebrews 11:1
[ By Faith We Understand ] Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

so why say Faith slows man down? don't we all have a certain amount of faith whether it be for a cure for disease to make advances in modern day things. The faithful don't resist advancements, but rather acknowledge where ability to make them came from. I enjoy l;ooking at a beautiful flower, but acknowledge it came from a seed- nothing changes that. I guess after reading eveything I have here -what you are saying is you don't beleive what you can't see and touch and only have faith(or so-called faith in you own abiltiy)-am I correct? Also just so I'm clear---do you believe in God? and remember, if you say yes to the last question , then please explain why you would believe in Him and not his word

I do not possess a belief in any god. I state it like that because theists always ask the question as you did; "do you believe in god?" or "you don't believe in god?", which implies he exists (despite the FACT you have no evidence of his existence).

As far as faith being the substance of things hoped for, I disagree. I do not have faith man will find a cure for a disease; given man's history of finding cures for diseases I think it is likely that trend will continue, just as believing the sun will rise tomorrow is not a faith but a viable prediction based on factual experience.

[deepsouth]

Re: CHRISTIANS

I do not possess a belief in any god. I state it like that because theists always ask the question as you did; "do you believe in god?" or "you don't believe in god?", which implies he exists (despite the FACT you have no evidence of his existence).

As far as faith being the substance of things hoped for, I disagree. I do not have faith man will find a cure for a disease; given man's history of finding cures for diseases I think it is likely that trend will continue, just as believing the sun will rise tomorrow is not a faith but a viable prediction based on factual experience.

Thank You for your honest answer!

[Sal Paradise]

Re: CHRISTIANS

Thank You for your honest answer!

I like the fact that we're all getting and giving what seem to be pretty honest answers!

Even at the risk of sounding like a mental patient by your's truly!! LOL!



Sal

[Klash]

Re: CHRISTIANS

Klash- I like this post so I will answer with a question- I state God is the creator of everything and you say that something can't come from nothing, but here is my question or questions: *Please don't take this as an attack in any way- I'm truely curious your views and answers-

1- If something can come from nothing - then where did everything start- what is your view on this? do you truely believe it was an amebea? I have the Bible that states the God created it- what do you base your theory on?

something has to be the begining nothing starts from nothing it has to be something

I'm not claiming to have all the answers; i just don't resort to making things up or believing something others made up because I don't have all the answers. There are scientific hypothesis that do explain our reality as always existing, e.g. the multi-verse idea and then the universe that expands to a point and then collapses in on itself and then big bangs again.

but why does your god not have to have a beginning, if everything has to? You said something has to be the beginning; if your god can have just existed forever - why can't the universe?

If you apply what you stated here, you can't believe in your god without believing another superior god being created him but then who created that superior god (it's never ending, if everything requires a creator)?

I base everything I believe on reason; if I don't know - I just don't know but I won't resort to faith.

[Klash]

Re: CHRISTIANS

I say his word(Jesus- the son of God or as must looked at it, God on earth being he spoke what God the Father told him) because of the books of the Bible that were written by people who were with him(Mathew-Mark-Luke-John). You keep referring to prove but yet there are many things you and I cannot prove being we were not actually there in person. This is why I asked if you believe in God. I can tell if you can not see it or touch it- it must not be- am I right? I mean can YOU prove Christopher Columbus sailed over here or do you just go by what you read? I mean you and I can't really prove it- we weren't there. I'm just asking

Here is my take on this. I am always open to different sides of a story. The story of Chistopher Columbus does not stretch the laws of nature or require the acceptance of a mystical premise. He used a ship made by men and sailed an ocean; he didn't walk on water, rise from the dead or heal people by putting his hands on them. If these things were associated with the story of C.C. - it would undermine the credibility of that history for me and i would doubt the entire story.

Christopher Columbus is not really relevant to my day to day living and I accept it but if someone were to offer a counter position, I wouldn't defend the C.C. position because I have not studied any counter positions but I would entertain any alternative history that opposes the C.C. story.

[Klash]

Re: CHRISTIANS

I tell you Bro- I was an outlaw most of my younger years and always thought I had the world by the tail, but at some point I was let down by putting my faith in people. They always failed me- including myself. I said to myself- There has to be something more". I walked away from Jesus many times, but always found myself coming back to him. There are sooo many scrpitures I could quote that just touched my heart- that I knew no matter how bad I was and no matter what I did, if I repented that God would forgive me and love me unconditionally(unlike man). Then I started taking a good hard look at the world and the way things are headed- increased drug use- children direspecting thier parents-kids using foul language at a young age- kids having sex and becoming pregnant at a young age- how now regular TV shows nudity when my kids are watching(and people think thats OK)just the morals and values of people today and you know I want more for myself-my wife- my kids. The Bibles core principles set the groundwork for the way I want my children and family to conduct themselves. I just want to go back to the way things used to be- We said the Pledge of Aliangence and prayed before class everymorning- we were held accountable for our actions and we were man enough to admit our mistakes- we played outside till the streetlights came on and didn't worry about the neighbor raping our kids- when I sneezed people said God Bless You- when you stood by someone you said hello and just didn't ignore them- just small stuff like that

Bro, I'm an atheist and I totally agree and I see the moral degradation and I guarantee you I am just as disgusted at it. I tell you, our societies depredation is not because we're becoming more secular or getting away from Christianity - it's because of that other issue you are hitting on; as a society we've gotten away from individual responsibility. We have a large segment of the population that see evil people like thieves and murderers as VICTIMS of a poor environment and that ultimately the responsibility of that immorality falls on society for letting these immoral people down in some way.

[Dzone]

Re: CHRISTIANS

genocide was performed on native americans and the few survivors were forced to accept Jesus as their savior. now We are proud to call this a christian nation.

[deepsouth]

Re: CHRISTIANS

Bro, I'm an atheist and I totally agree and I see the moral degradation and I guarantee you I am just as disgusted at it. I tell you, our societies depredation is not because we're becoming more secular or getting away from Christianity - it's because of that other issue you are hitting on; as a society we've gotten away from individual responsibility. We have a large segment of the population that see evil people like thieves and murderers as VICTIMS of a poor environment and that ultimately the responsibility of that immorality falls on society for letting these immoral people down in some way.

Klash- sorry for the late reply- I flipping from days to nights and back two more times this week so can't figure if I'm coming or going. I want to know so can you tell me what an Atheist believes and what they follow for guidance.

[gator_mclusky]

Re: CHRISTIANS

Klash- sorry for the late reply- I flipping from days to nights and back two more times this week so can't figure if I'm coming or going. I want to know so can you tell me what an Atheist believes and what they follow for guidance.

Yea.....I'd like to know as well. Interesting....

gator

[daved150]

Re: CHRISTIANS

When I use the word faith I am referring to any belief that cannot be rationally supported; whether that is the faith of the religious or faith of the humanist that thinks utopia can be reached with communism through a sense of duty and self-sacrifice for others; despite the fact this is not man's nature. To me faith is synonymous with irrational. If someone says "you have to have faith" - they might as well tell me you have to be irrational.
I am so adverse to the word, if I am implying any other meaning I will use different words.

well aint that fukin great!!! i got people telling me i "got to have faith that things are gonna get better" all the time!! thanks for pissing in my weaties bro!!!

[Klash]

Re: CHRISTIANS

Klash- sorry for the late reply- I flipping from days to nights and back two more times this week so can't figure if I'm coming or going. I want to know so can you tell me what an Atheist believes and what they follow for guidance.

Just like many philosophical positions, there is a wide range of belief's when it comes to atheism but most atheists acknowledge that they submit to reason over faith when it comes to god but from my experience MOST atheists abandon reason when it comes to politics with the justification of "compassion" for the needy. Which is why many atheists are associated with some type of liberalism but to me they are just as irrational as a theist.

But to answer you question as to what i follow for guidance - to be as concise as possible it is logic, which is avoiding contradictions. If you run across a contradiction or a double standard that is evidence that you possess an erroneous belief somewhere that needs to corrected; contradictions do not exist in reality. Men are RATIONAL animals and that is how we must live. Constantly living with our own rational self-interest in mind. This is where most people will have to re-wire their minds. That will sound "selfish" and we are all conditioned that being selfish is immoral but it is not. Loving others is not in contradiction to being selfish; who decides to love others, and who determines who is worthy of your love? You do. If someone threatened someone you love, would you not selfishly protect that person even with risk to yourself. If YOU didn't find that person important you wouldn't take that risk. Now being selfless would be protecting someone that is not worth the risk to your own life, e.g. someone you find repulsive, a rapist, pedophile, murderer. So in conclusion, you choose your moral code, from that you decide who holds values you admire and how much value they give your life and you decide what threatens that value; these are all selfish acts because you have interest in these people. Valuing people is not selflessness. Valuing people you find repulsive is?

I tried to at least spark some interest in what I routinely find that most people don't understand about rational self-interest.