CHRISTIANS

[Klash]

Re: CHRISTIANS

Klash you're reaching and going in circles now. I was thinking how much you should be a spokesperson for anything until you tried to knock compassion out completely by throwing variables back into the equation to validate your definitions of selfishness and selflessness.

I understand your explanations of where selfishness fits in with human life and our loved ones, etc, etc...

Compassion is simple, and has nothing to do with having to sacrifice your own best interest or that of your loved ones. Because as you've expained very clearly, then your selfish instincts kick in.
But the point; you see someone in a bad situation and feel compassion. a selfless feeling. that's all. Nothing more. I said nothing about some kids shoes or your's. Now once you start throwing your variables in such as loved ones and so on. Then I agree. Your point of selfishness might stand true.

Now there are people all over that do there little "selfless" acts of kindness. We got philanthropist all over. yeah, right...whatever. wheather family is involved or not, they do those acts for the self gratitude. selfish indeed.

All feelings/emotions are a result of values. Compassion is based on a value. Whose values? Yours! Your own values result in compassion. So how can compassion be selfless, if it fundamentally requires YOUR value system to bring it forth.

[Klash]

Re: CHRISTIANS

is it just me or does anyone else feel the love in the room? huh? anyone else getting moved by the fact that, as hard as klash try's to deny his lord and savior, he just radiates peace and love on earth toward his fellow man! a trait, most definatly, associated with a true follower of the lord!! CAN YOU FEEL IT? CAN YOU FEEL IT BROTHER AND SISTERS???!!!! CAN I GET AN AHMEN FOR BROTHER KLASH!!! TELL US MORE OF BROTHERLY LOVE BROTHER KLASH!!! PREACH ON MY BROTHER!!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL, my peace, loving imaginary friend could kick the $hit out of your imaginary friend.

Seriously though, Even when religion gets things right they want the followers to accept it through a dogmatic approach. The ten commandments got 2 or 3 things right but the only supportive argument provided is that the lord commands it, says some old dude.

[horsepwr]

Re: CHRISTIANS

All feelings/emotions are a result of values. Compassion is based on a value. Whose values? Yours! Your own values result in compassion. So how can compassion be selfless, if it fundamentally requires YOUR value system to bring it forth.

lol...man, because my value system is based on selfless compassion.

In your world there's no selfless act unless irrational. You can break it down to what you have easily, but you can also draw a line somewhere. Use definitions to help where you'd like that line. And make it easy. Your's is correct. Or, don't. Either way, call it what you will...compassion...selfish. You have a good bearing on the matter, and stand where I do. You just have no idea of where selfish ends and selfless begins. Maybe I don't either. But, I believe I do. I've explained it simple as I can. The feeling of compassion, that is.
Back to that (right and wrong) that there is very much so such-a thing as.

[Dzone]

Re: CHRISTIANS

^^^agreed that right and wrong is so such- a thing. and has been stored and evolved in dna over millions of years. Human beings have basic instincts for survivial built in. We're not differrent than other animals. We do thrive in community, at least most species do. Survival is to a large degree dependent on other people. Somedays we may not want to admit..LOL...so we do have certain skills that we learn but much is instinctive.

The lymbic system is the old part of the brain that is totally emotional. We instinctively feel emotions as love, empathy, compassion. It is enahanced with use and learning, but even the most heinous criminal can feel compassion in some way.
Those areas of our brain fire of neurochemical cascades and at times, almost uncontrollable.

So, begs the questiono we do good things instinctively? Or at its roots, is every act selfish because we gain some good feeelings from it for ourselves, threrefore, no act can EVER be labelled totally selfless. If it felt like shitt to be philanthropic, we wouldnt be so. We are philanthropic, because we like how it feels.

[Klash]

Re: CHRISTIANS

lol...man, because my value system is based on selfless compassion.

No, you obviously value other human beings as you should - you are one; the result of this value is compassion, when you see one in distress.

In your world there's no selfless act unless irrational. You can break it down to what you have easily, but you can also draw a line somewhere. Use definitions to help where you'd like that line. And make it easy. Your's is correct. Or, don't. Either way, call it what you will...compassion...selfish. You have a good bearing on the matter, and stand where I do. You just have no idea of where selfish ends and selfless begins. Maybe I don't either. But, I believe I do. I've explained it simple as I can. The feeling of compassion, that is.
Back to that (right and wrong) that there is very much so such-a thing as.

It's not my world; it's reality. I do have an idea of where selfish ends and selfless begins and I have gave clear examples. If you compromise your own values, for whatever reason, for one of your lesser values you are being selfless and as you also correctly pointed out - irrational.

I never stated there wasn't such a thing as right and wrong; there very much is but it should be based on the reality of man's life, not on dogmatic, supernatural mysticism.

[Klash]

Re: CHRISTIANS

^^^agreed that right and wrong is so such- a thing. and has been stored and evolved in dna over millions of years. Human beings have basic instincts for survivial built in. We're not differrent than other animals. We do thrive in community, at least most species do. Survival is to a large degree dependent on other people. Somedays we may not want to admit..LOL...so we do have certain skills that we learn but much is instinctive.

The lymbic system is the old part of the brain that is totally emotional. We instinctively feel emotions as love, empathy, compassion. It is enahanced with use and learning, but even the most heinous criminal can feel compassion in some way.
Those areas of our brain fire of neurochemical cascades and at times, almost uncontrollable.

So, begs the questiono we do good things instinctively? Or at its roots, is every act selfish because we gain some good feeelings from it for ourselves, threrefore, no act can EVER be labelled totally selfless. If it felt like shitt to be philanthropic, we wouldnt be so. We are philanthropic, because we like how it feels.

I believe that everyone does what they believe is in their own best interest but when people possess irrational philosophies it can appear that they aren't. For example, the Muslim extremists that blows himself up, that doesn't appear to be in his best interest until you take his actions into account in full context of his beliefs. he believes in the afterlife where he will be rewarded for his actions. All of a sudden you can see how he believed it was in his best interest.

[daved150]

Re: CHRISTIANS

No, you obviously value other human beings as you should - you are one; the result of this value is compassion, when you see one in distress.




It's not my world; it's reality. I do have an idea of where selfish ends and selfless begins and I have gave clear examples. If you compromise your own values, for whatever reason, for one of your lesser values you are being selfless and as you also correctly pointed out - irrational.

I never stated there wasn't such a thing as right and wrong; there very much is but it should be based on the reality of man's life, not on dogmatic, supernatural mysticism.

dude...i was having a had time with the faith thing...not really "hard", but while this discussion has been going on i wanted to read more about "faith" and "irrationality". i came across this...whats your thaughts (you may have read this before).




1) Faith is something one has when one believes something that one is not certain about.
2) One is /never/ certain of anything in the preposterous philosophical sense that is being used here.
3) One is /always/ acting as though one is certain of something (not the same thing in each ?case?, obviously).
4) So one?s actions always involve faith (from (1) and (3)).
5) But one?s actions do not always involve rational deliberation.
6) So faith does not require rationality because at least some of one?s actions involve faith, are not merely tenacious (in the derogatory sense) and yet do not involve one in rational deliberations ((4), (5)).



so....

[horsepwr]

Re: CHRISTIANS

^^^agreed that right and wrong is so such- a thing. and has been stored and evolved in dna over millions of years. Human beings have basic instincts for survivial built in. We're not differrent than other animals. We do thrive in community, at least most species do. Survival is to a large degree dependent on other people. Somedays we may not want to admit..LOL...so we do have certain skills that we learn but much is instinctive.

The lymbic system is the old part of the brain that is totally emotional. We instinctively feel emotions as love, empathy, compassion. It is enahanced with use and learning, but even the most heinous criminal can feel compassion in some way.
Those areas of our brain fire of neurochemical cascades and at times, almost uncontrollable.

So, begs the questiono we do good things instinctively? Or at its roots, is every act selfish because we gain some good feeelings from it for ourselves, threrefore, no act can EVER be labelled totally selfless. If it felt like shitt to be philanthropic, we wouldnt be so. We are philanthropic, because we like how it feels.

This is where you guys are getting thrown off, and it might well be selfish. I never said anything about acting on the feeling. Just simply, the feeling. once again, for instance; You see somthing and feel compassion. Then flip the channel, or drive away because you have self interest in yourself and in the car with you possibly.

[horsepwr]

Re: CHRISTIANS

No, you obviously value other human beings as you should - you are one; the result of this value is compassion, when you see one in distress.

It's not my world; it's reality. I do have an idea of where selfish ends and selfless begins and I have gave clear examples. If you compromise your own values, for whatever reason, for one of your lesser values you are being selfless and as you also correctly pointed out - irrational.

I never stated there wasn't such a thing as right and wrong; there very much is but it should be based on the reality of man's life, not on dogmatic, supernatural mysticism.

Okay, I might not have been crystal clear on a selfless act of compassion. People keep going back to action. Acting on the feeling of compassion. I never said anything about acting on the feeling. Just seeing something that ingnites the feeling of compassion, and leaving the situation there. No action taken. Can you see how then you have displayed a feeling of selfless compassion. Like seeing those commercials with children or animals. You've had to act in no way selfish, but felt compassion. A selfless feeling of compassion has just happened. That's it nothing more.

The instance where you see someone and feel compassion, but drive away because of self interest does indeed then become selfish. So, bad example in the earlier response to dzone.

[Klash]

Re: CHRISTIANS

[QUOTE=daved150;900110]dude...i was having a had time with the faith thing...not really "hard", but while this discussion has been going on i wanted to read more about "faith" and "irrationality". i came across this...whats your thaughts (you may have read this before).




1) Faith is something one has when one believes something that one is not certain about./QUOTE]

I think those that adhere to faith would even disagree with how this is worded. The faithful ARE certain about their beliefs, they use faith as the justification for those beliefs because there is no other way to justify them.

2) One is /never/ certain of anything in the preposterous philosophical sense that is being used here.

This is a ludicrous statement and the implication of the statement contradicts the actual statement. This is an irrational guy trying to justify having irrational beliefs. If one is never certain of anything, how can one be certain that he can't be certain of anything. Oh, these phuck wads piss me off more than anything. This followers of this philosophy also never hold themselves to their own beliefs. If you put a gun to one of these phuck wads head and said if I pull the trigger you can't be certain of anything. All of a sudden certainty would come rushing back.

I mean think of the implications of that statement "one is NEVER certain of ANYTHING". The results of me pulling the trigger on a gun could result in a million different random scenarios. I could pull the trigger and 72 virgins could appear or 73.

3) One is /always/ acting as though one is certain of something (not the same thing in each ?case?, obviously).
4) So one?s actions always involve faith (from (1) and (3)).
5) But one?s actions do not always involve rational deliberation.
6) So faith does not require rationality because at least some of one?s actions involve faith, are not merely tenacious (in the derogatory sense) and yet do not involve one in rational deliberations ((4), (5)).
so....

The rest of these are built on the erroneous premises that I have already undertook.

[Klash]

Re: CHRISTIANS

Okay, I might not have been crystal clear on a selfless act of compassion. People keep going back to action. Acting on the feeling of compassion. I never said anything about acting on the feeling. Just seeing something that ingnites the feeling of compassion, and leaving the situation there. No action taken. Can you see how then you have displayed a feeling of selfless compassion. Like seeing those commercials with children or animals. You've had to act in no way selfish, but felt compassion. A selfless feeling of compassion has just happened. That's it nothing more.

The instance where you see someone and feel compassion, but drive away because of self interest does indeed then become selfish. So, bad example in the earlier response to dzone.

Selflessness requires action. You cannot be selfless without action. You cannot FEEL something that is in contradiction to your values. Compassion is based on your value system. You cannot divorce yourself from YOUR value system. If you feel compassion (and don't act on it) it is because of your value system that you have adopted or created to guide in life.

[horsepwr]

Re: CHRISTIANS

That's where I see compassion in a different light than you. I have a clear line where selfish ends and selfless begins in mind. in my value system. You've made your's very easy for you to go by. I have mine. I know when I've truly acted selflessly. I might have to squabble the notion if in your position on the matter. My beliefs have made it clear for me though. And definitions help back my position on selfish and selfless.

Good talk. It could go on and on. Everything, and anything done absolutely selfless would most definitely be irrational. You can look at it that way without being incorrect. Just as you do. I don't disagree with your position. I just have defiined mine. I have a line that I know selfish ends. without having to be irrational. I think it, well of course, it boils down to the personal value system.

[daved150]

Re: CHRISTIANS

[quote=Klash;900124]

dude...i was having a had time with the faith thing...not really "hard", but while this discussion has been going on i wanted to read more about "faith" and "irrationality". i came across this...whats your thaughts (you may have read this before).




1) Faith is something one has when one believes something that one is not certain about./QUOTE]

I think those that adhere to faith would even disagree with how this is worded. The faithful ARE certain about their beliefs, they use faith as the justification for those beliefs because there is no other way to justify them.



This is a ludicrous statement and the implication of the statement contradicts the actual statement. This is an irrational guy trying to justify having irrational beliefs. If one is never certain of anything, how can one be certain that he can't be certain of anything. Oh, these phuck wads piss me off more than anything. This followers of this philosophy also never hold themselves to their own beliefs. If you put a gun to one of these phuck wads head and said if I pull the trigger you can't be certain of anything. All of a sudden certainty would come rushing back.

I mean think of the implications of that statement "one is NEVER certain of ANYTHING". The results of me pulling the trigger on a gun could result in a million different random scenarios. I could pull the trigger and 72 virgins could appear or 73.




The rest of these are built on the erroneous premises that I have already undertook.

there's more, but i left the link at home...if i find it again, there was some other things i wanted you to adress, but it's all "faith" based....

[deepsouth]

Re: CHRISTIANS

All feelings/emotions are a result of values. Compassion is based on a value. Whose values? Yours! Your own values result in compassion. So how can compassion be selfless, if it fundamentally requires YOUR value system to bring it forth.

I wouldn't say compasion is based on a value completely, but you ask how can it be selfless and I can definately answer that and probably if you reflect on things you have done in your own life -find where you have had compasion yourself. If you have EVER done something for someone not because you had to and with nothing to gain for yourself but merely because you saw a need that you could help somemone meet- you had compasion for them and did it. And that my friend is SELFLESS

[daved150]

Re: CHRISTIANS

I wouldn't say compasion is based on a value completely, but you ask how can it be selfless and I can definately answer that and probably if you reflect on things you have done in your own life -find where you have had compasion yourself. If you have EVER done something for someone not because you had to and with nothing to gain for yourself but merely because you saw a need that you could help somemone meet- you had compasion for them and did it. And that my friend is SELFLESS

i agree with that...100%.