CHRISTIANS

[daved150]

Re: CHRISTIANS

Ummm yeah, think you got that backwards, if I remember correctly those who proclaimed the earth was round were oppressed by those with faith because in the bible it talks about a flat world with pillars holding it in the sky. The faithful also persecuted those who said the earth wasn't the center of the universe.

tomato, tamoto you know wtf i'm saying, lol!!! THEY SHOULD BE PERSECUTED!!! (everyone knows that it is infact me that is in the center)

[horsepwr]

Re: CHRISTIANS

For me, to admit doubt about something that I held so dear to my heart for so many years, is very hard. But as I have grown in experience and wisdom, I am finding that Im more in line with what Klash has said here. I still think the teachings of Jesus are some of the most profound words of wisdom in histroy. I think Jesus has been widely misunderstood over the last 2,000 years. I do beleive there are a lot of shocked people who died and found out things werent what they thought in the afterlife.

As for our nation being Christian, well, I dont think it is the end of our civilization if our coins dont say 'In God we trust" or they take the ten commandments down from the court house. We dont have problems in our classrooms because they dont have a group prayer. I went to a catholic boarding school and we prayed all the time and 90% of the kids there were on dope.
The biggst threat to our future is people saying that America is falling apart. If we as a nation continue to repeat that mantra, then it will come to pass. There is just as much Christian and anti-Christian stuff going on now as there was 100 years ago.

on the (taking prayer out of schoool) and (ten commandments down), statistically, we are a less violent and harmful nation now than we were even 100yrs ago. That's the stats. That's the facts.

Evolution is still going on as well though, and always will.

[Sal Paradise]

Re: CHRISTIANS

I think that has a lot to do with it. This mystical fantasy some people want to believe in is because they percieve it as more exciting or the alternative as more boring. I don't agree, I think once our society pulls their head out of each others ass, one day from our perspective mankind will look like gods. Reality is our playground.

I think Klash is starting to get it -- or possibly he already has!!
But I'd like to hear a bit more on this from you Klash - please expand.


Actually - I have much more on this subject as well and there are some things I have not posted as of yet but be assured I will.

Can't right now - still at work and it may take a bit to put together but let's just ponder the idea for a minute...Is reality our playground???

More to come....but as a friend said to me recently this may take chapters or books!!
I'll do my best to be concise.

In the meantime - carry on and I must get back to a bit of work.


Sal

[Klash]

Re: CHRISTIANS

I think Klash is starting to get it -- or possibly he already has!!
But I'd like to hear a bit more on this from you Klash - please expand.


Actually - I have much more on this subject as well and there are some things I have not posted as of yet but be assured I will.

Can't right now - still at work and it may take a bit to put together but let's just ponder the idea for a minute...Is reality our playground???

More to come....but as a friend said to me recently this may take chapters or books!!
I'll do my best to be concise.

In the meantime - carry on and I must get back to a bit of work.


Sal

When I say reality is our playground; I mean - I don't think much, if anything, is impossible for man to achieve.
For example can you imagine being in the time of Jesus and telling a group of people that man will harness the power of the sun, that he will be able to travel faster than the speed of sound (in the air), he will go to the moon, he will be able to communicate with people clear across the world almost instantly, etc., etc., etc. They could not even comprehend how all this is possible. Now fast forward 2000 years from now; what power will man have harnessed, how far will man have traveled in the cosmos, and how far will the ordinary man be able to communicate instantaneously? But all of man's advances are made with reasoning; not faith. Faith slows man down; the faithful resist and fight new logical insights and the facts that support those insights and the faithful don't ever offer new knowledge it is the men that submit to figuring the objective and independent reality.

[Dzone]

Re: CHRISTIANS

^Klash, not sure what you mean by reasoning vs faith. Do you mean faith in a supreme being, faith in our selves? Faith that if we proceed in a certain fashion, then we can have faith that certaiin things will happen? How do you mean that the faithful resist and fight new logical insights?
Just wondering bro how you mean

[Sal Paradise]

Re: CHRISTIANS

^Klash, not sure what you mean by reasoning vs faith. Do you mean faith in a supreme being, faith in our selves? Faith that if we proceed in a certain fashion, then we can have faith that certaiin things will happen? How do you mean that the faithful resist and fight new logical insights?
Just wondering bro how you mean

Ditto

[deepsouth]

Re: CHRISTIANS

When I say reality is our playground; I mean - I don't think much, if anything, is impossible for man to achieve.
For example can you imagine being in the time of Jesus and telling a group of people that man will harness the power of the sun, that he will be able to travel faster than the speed of sound (in the air), he will go to the moon, he will be able to communicate with people clear across the world almost instantly, etc., etc., etc. They could not even comprehend how all this is possible. Now fast forward 2000 years from now; what power will man have harnessed, how far will man have traveled in the cosmos, and how far will the ordinary man be able to communicate instantaneously? But all of man's advances are made with reasoning; not faith. Faith slows man down; the faithful resist and fight new logical insights and the facts that support those insights and the faithful don't ever offer new knowledge it is the men that submit to figuring the objective and independent reality.

Couple of comments/questions....

Hebrews 11:1
[ By Faith We Understand ] Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

so why say Faith slows man down? don't we all have a certain amount of faith whether it be for a cure for disease to make advances in modern day things. The faithful don't resist advancements, but rather acknowledge where ability to make them came from. I enjoy l;ooking at a beautiful flower, but acknowledge it came from a seed- nothing changes that. I guess after reading eveything I have here -what you are saying is you don't beleive what you can't see and touch and only have faith(or so-called faith in you own abiltiy)-am I correct? Also just so I'm clear---do you believe in God? and remember, if you say yes to the last question , then please explain why you would believe in Him and not his word

[Dzone]

Re: CHRISTIANS

^ok deep, i just have to ask you what you mean by "His word"? Im sure there a lot of people who would like to know there is irrefutable evidence that the bible is the actual WORDS OF GOD. Me personally, if You can proove that those are Gods words, then I will be a happy man. Taking it on blind faith doesnt cut it for me anymore. I went for years on blind faith. Just cant do it anymore. Please dont take that as a rejection of any religious doctrine.

[deepsouth]

Re: CHRISTIANS

I say his word(Jesus- the son of God or as must looked at it, God on earth being he spoke what God the Father told him) because of the books of the Bible that were written by people who were with him(Mathew-Mark-Luke-John). You keep referring to prove but yet there are many things you and I cannot prove being we were not actually there in person. This is why I asked if you believe in God. I can tell if you can not see it or touch it- it must not be- am I right? I mean can YOU prove Christopher Columbus sailed over here or do you just go by what you read? I mean you and I can't really prove it- we weren't there. I'm just asking

[Dzone]

Re: CHRISTIANS

not trying to be difficult. i simply want to know "how do you know?"

[Klash]

Re: CHRISTIANS

^Klash, not sure what you mean by reasoning vs faith. Do you mean faith in a supreme being, faith in our selves? Faith that if we proceed in a certain fashion, then we can have faith that certaiin things will happen? How do you mean that the faithful resist and fight new logical insights?
Just wondering bro how you mean

When I use the word faith I am referring to any belief that cannot be rationally supported; whether that is the faith of the religious or faith of the humanist that thinks utopia can be reached with communism through a sense of duty and self-sacrifice for others; despite the fact this is not man's nature. To me faith is synonymous with irrational. If someone says "you have to have faith" - they might as well tell me you have to be irrational.
I am so adverse to the word, if I am implying any other meaning I will use different words.

[Sal Paradise]

Re: CHRISTIANS

I say his word(Jesus- the son of God or as must looked at it, God on earth being he spoke what God the Father told him) because of the books of the Bible that were written by people who were with him(Mathew-Mark-Luke-John). You keep referring to prove but yet there are many things you and I cannot prove being we were not actually there in person. This is why I asked if you believe in God. I can tell if you can not see it or touch it- it must not be- am I right? I mean can YOU prove Christopher Columbus sailed over here or do you just go by what you read? I mean you and I can't really prove it- we weren't there. I'm just asking

You bring up a good point DS about books based on things happening when we are not there to witness it.
But with regard to that and the bible - what about the other books - not just the gospel of the new testament?

What about the old testament? Jesus wasn't around for that.
Were these just the ramblings of crazy folk who heard GOD speak to them?
I know if I start to talk about GOD speaking to me telling me to kill my son - ala Abraham - I'd be put away.
Forget the fact that he didn't do it - just to take it as far as he did would have most and likely yourself telling me that I'm crazy.

What makes his story any different? What makes it right?

And why - if the bible was composed of many, many differnt authors of different books from hundreds or more years - why can't there be a new book of the bible today?

I'm not asking for what it says in Revelation 22:18-9 - I'm asking why if the bible was composed of so many differnt things did it all of a sudden stop?
It's almost as silly as saying our god was good and spoke to us so we tell you all what to do for eternity and no one can add anything more to it because we say so.
Add to it the fact that the bible was composed by none of the actual writers of the books - just someone hundreds of years later who collected up a bunch of stuff - decided what order they wanted to put it into and make a collection of short stories.
When John wrote the book of revelation the bible wasn't even around.
It was in reference to that book alone - not a compiled wish list of stuff.

By that account there should be no reason there isn't a book of DEEPSOUTH added to it.
For all we know the book of genesis and the gospel according to mark were never even meant to in the same room let alone the same book.
And as so many refer to the bible as the word of god there can be no segregation of these books.

So I guess I'm not questioning that these books were written or are even the words of jesus according to someone else - not him - but why is this book any more real than Alice in Wonderland??

I could see if the thing was written by Jesus and he sat in a room and compiled the text in his OWN words - not heresay from someone else - then maybe it would I would believe these are his words but even at that it's still just a story...

To believe in GOD or a higher power is something I can relate to - exactly what that means I have not gone into fully yet - but to pattern a life and suggest others pattern their life based on a book based on heresay and not even compiled by those who wrote it but "editors" hundreds of years later with no input at all from the authors of said short stories is just not understandable to me.


Again - as I have said before - I'm totally cool with everyone and everyone's personal beliefs.
Heck I want to hear more from you and Klash and Dzone - the whole crew.
But WHY! do we all feel this way?

Klash has brought good things to the table - though not everything jives just yet - we're getting there.
And you have brought many good things to the topic as well - so let's keep this going and lets here WHY we believe the way we do - not just what a book tells us how we should believe.



Sal

[Dzone]

Re: CHRISTIANS

The origins of the bible is a discussion most Christians would just as soon avoid. Lot easier to take the pastors word for it, thats its the actuial "Word of God" . Being Christian requires a lot of accepting things on blind faith. If one cant accept it on blind faith, he will be judged and deemed unchristian.

[Sal Paradise]

Re: CHRISTIANS

This is where theists unnecessarily compound the equation. You state something cannot come from nothing, you give examples of flesh, air earth, thought and energy. You state god is greater than these things, he is the creator of these things and thus he must even be more complex than these things but yet he is a "something" that came from nothing that you can accept, or you either believe in an eternal hierarchy of gods but then there is no initial creator and you wind up with a reality that always has been, it just contains god after god, after god. Why not just eliminate what we don't know and state the universe exists and maybe it always has.

I like this line of thinking Klash - matter of fact I like the questions and the asking of WHY...

Well here goes -
I think there is something more - what that is I can't say.
Could there be a hierarchy of gods?
Possibly - that goes along with some philosopies. But what about everything is god and god is everything?
Then is that case you would be right - the earth, sea, thought, energy and everything we know have always been as it will always be.

How about that? What about the fact that you may indeed be GOD?
No different than I or DS, Dzone or HP or anyone or anything else in this thing we call life is?

Are we not all our own?

Is there anything aside from myself and my thoughts that I must be answer to? I don't think so.

I say it in simple terms when I talk to my wife and most others and say "When I sleep at night - I sleep alone"
By that I mean - I and I alone am responsible for my actions and my life.

If I am OK and at peace with myself and what I have done and the way I live - then who is to say I'm wrong? Answer - - nobody and nothing.
There is no way God can judge me if I am at peace with myself! If he were to say I have been incorrect yet I am at peace with all I have done - then he must be wrong.

So who is to judge me? I and I alone - does that make me GOD?
Sure it does - of thine own self!!! That is the kicker.
I will not be ruled by laws of man or laws of another mans god - that is no different than being ruled by man.

I and I alone judge myself when I sleep and when I die.

I am no one to anyone else as no one is of anything to me.
The way someone else chooses to live their life is for them alone to lie down to sleep with.

If someone kills my dog or wife - am I to judge them? No - they must judge themselves for what they have done.
Should I find it possible to kill them and that would be likely! Then it is ultimately up to them whether or not they find peace in their actions and their life when it comes to an end. I am not judging them - I am simply doing what I feel is right.
I will have to judge myself for those action upon which I take.

Would I let it slip slowly past and do nothing? No

I do my best to inflict such pain or misery upon them - and I alone would have to judge myself upon my sleep if it was right or wrong.
Should I die of this world before I wake - then nothing else matters except my peace with myself.

So why do I do feel that there is something more?????

Well - this again is personal and up to each individual - I find when I reflect inwards - to the something that is mine and mine alone - I find more.
As I've said before not necessarily better but more.
I find myself along side myself - yet it isn't a singularity - there is something more.
Maybe it's just the schizophrenia I suffer and I'm sharing my mind and "soul" with a couple of others! LOL!! (Don't rule that out!)

If there was nothing and the universe is as it is with nothing more and nothing less - I don't think my inner reflection or whatever one wants to call it would reveal this to me.

So while I have no proof in the physical and tangible sense that I could wrap in a box and mail to you - I do have what I consider something more.
What it is - well that is for me to continue to explore.
As I mentioned previously - I think there is something more - what that is I can't say but without it I fail to find reason.....


Sal

[deepsouth]

Re: CHRISTIANS

not trying to be difficult. i simply want to know "how do you know?"

Thats just my point- I have no problem beleiving C.C. sailed over here like I have no problem beleiving Jesus is the son of God and the Bible is truth. I wasn't there to personally witness either, but I have Faith they took place. Beleive me- I respect where everyone is coming from, I just don't understand why its so difficult to put thier faith in a higher power. It doesn't make you less of a man- less successful- less likeable- less ambitious. It doesn't mean you can't enjoy life or be the happy go lucky person you are.
Look- I respect whatever it is you believe and I'm just as curious as you as why you are why you beleive the way you do so please don't take anything I say out of context- this is the first time I have been able to have a civil discussion with peeps without someone going off the deep end