CHRISTIANS

[Dzone]

Re: CHRISTIANS

You bring up a good point HP!!

More on that later!!

I'm still at work but will get more into that as soon as I can.
I'll say that my personal view is quite a bit off from some of the others but given the total respect we have here I think I can get away without a stoning!! LOL!!

Seriously though - I can totally dig the energy thing and part of us keeps on keeping on regardless of what comes next.


Sal

Oh ya for sure its a good what to talk about things that are perhaps too taboo to discuss in public. If I discussed this topic with my blood brother, forget it. he is narrow minded and is proud to be! He would come across as a self righteous asshole and the rest of the family would totally NOt be diggin his rap.

the human mind is astounding and what believe to be so has such a way of making us behave.

It would be hilarious having a reality show about peoples bizarre beliefs. religiosity was funny. it wa sa good movie that people need to see, just for the alternative viewpoit

People get fukin strange sometimes about things that are totally tradition passed down through the ages.

the human brain is capable of comprehending far more when it has a mixture of life experience to draw from. I know how narrow minded i was at one time.e

[Dzone]

Re: CHRISTIANS

Well, if Lucifer never had free will, he wouldn't have been able to decide god was a D*ck and act against him. It wouldn't have been in his programming right? Given that he did rebel against god; it seems he has the same "free will" that us humans have (even though the Christians idea of "free will" isn't free will). If humans act against god we get the same outcome - eternal torture with Lucifer. It sounds like to me, hell is always an option to keep you from questioning this guy that calls himself god.

Looking at "god's own word" he's obviously one sadistic, bigoted slave master. The devil may actually be the good guy, after all we don't get the devil's account. Given the character of god from his own book, I don't think it would be out of the realm of possibility that he painted a fictitious account of the devil just to make himself look good. Apart from god calling the devil evil, what actions does he give to back that up. How do we even know Lucifer is in some "lake of fire", he could have been like phuck Yhwh, I'm going to go build up a subdivision for all the souls, with integrity, that won't worship the sadistic, bigoted slave master and we can all live together in luxury. I mean maybe the tree of knowledge was really knowledge of how this entity, calling itself god, is no more powerful than we are (or Lucifer) and has no authority over us that don't give it to him.

hey this was a great friggin post.. Thats something to think about for sure

[Dzone]

Re: CHRISTIANS

The old testament starts off with a story of a talking snake. but rEmember, if you dont believe snakes can talk, YOURE GOING TO HELL!!!!

[Sal Paradise]

Re: CHRISTIANS

You eastern philosophy guys, I love how you guys are all inclusive but hate arguing against that "everyone is right" position.

Just one point of correction. I do not have FAITH that there is no god. It is not up to me to prove a negative. If I say that there is an invisible pink elephant, named bob, sitting right beside me - you do not have faith that there is no bob. It is up to me to prove that bob exists; if I do not, a rational man should not believe that Bob does exist. Same with god. When the first human described the origins of our existence as a result of a god and then failed to prove it, the idea of god should have been dismissed. Instead it was another way for some men to collect other men's wealth. So, I dismiss the concept of god because it cannot be proven. I will speculate about god but I will never believe in him without evidence.

You bring up good points Klash - GREAT POINTS IN FACT!!!

I simply choose to believe is something greater - not necessarily better!!
But I have yet to see something come from nothing.

With that being said - there is no explanation for life as we know it.
Earth, flesh, air, THOUGHT and ENERGY!!
Until I can see something from nothing I feel it had to come from somewhere or something that's beyond my comprehension at this time in my development.

So some will call this GOD some may even call it BOB! LOL!
But if a tree falls in the forest -- did it really fall? <<< I can really go on a tangent here but let's keep this somewhat sensible.
You don't have to see it to have it be reasonably true - reasonably.

Sometimes - You don't have to see to believe - sometimes you must believe to see!
Sort of like the fallen tree - if I were to have never seen a tree standing I would not believe it could have stood upright if you and I were walking in the forest and came upon a fallen tree - how could I?
However, as my knowledge and understanding has grown - I no longer need to see that tree in the moment of falling to know that it once stood upright.

Sort of like the whole concept of GOD or something else - no one can prove it to you - good luck if they try - RIGHT!!
I can appreciate where you're coming from and as you can tell I don't believe as most do - in fact, it gets quite a bit more disturbing if I wwere to really go into it all.


So while there is no proof and you are somewhat correct in that the whole concept should have been dismissed - but all it may have needed was someone asking a simple question of "HOW DID THIS COME TO BE?"

Again - no suitable answer as something cannot come from nothing.
So that leaves me with where I am today.
A belief or faith if you will - in something more.


Sal

[daved150]

Re: CHRISTIANS

great reading guys.
i guess, after reading this, sal pretty much sums up my opinion on the matter the closest. i have faith that there is a god. i cant prove it, but so the fuk what! at one point in time, people couldnt prove the earth was round...didnt mean it wasnt. i guess thats why it's called faith.
and klash....i believe in bob!!!

[horsepwr]

Re: CHRISTIANS

With my AP biology and a buddy of mine that was on the more intellectual side of most high schoolers, we both had many questions about this "God". I had pretty much gotten to the point of not believing. I had no faith, I guess you could say. Well, that was just for a couple years, but the story that's told in the Bible which I have read, along with other spiritual books, just doesn't totally jive. I learned some very great knowledge from a book called Journey of the Soul.

Well, I learned that I truly never stopped believing in a higher power. And something that gets me, is to hear someone pray, and I know that allot of people pray everyday for things. Material things, financial help, not to say that these things aren't things they really need, but I don't believe in praying for things like that. I've never prayed that way. I just give great appreciation for the life I have (family, health...), talk to my guides because those are who you're speaking to when you pray. I believe the bible even tells you that. But people refer to these spiritual guides as "guardian angels". We all have them. They're close to us. The maker/s is way to far away, and much to busy to collect and give full attention to each and everyone's prayers. I was also taught to pray in Christ's name. I used to do that, until I came to believe that Christ, as the Jews know, is not God, but a profit.
Here's my point; I've been in a real low place in life and prayed hard for help. This happened on 4 separate occassions. The first couple times. I still prayed through Jesus. The last 2 I did not. I prayed though my guides to help, and just spoke what came natural. These 4 separate points in my life, that I was desperate for help and turned to a higher power. He/it/they answered. And came to my calling quickly. That was absolutely manifestation to me. The first prayer that was answered, was answered in such great detail, just as I prayed in great detail. I mean, he showed me that he's there when truly needed. Again, he/they/whatever, or whoever. What proved to me about Jesus is my second to prayers of desperation weren't prayers in his name, but rather prayers to my guides, and to get the maker involved, whatever...I don't remember exactly. But they were answered too. Very abruptly, manifesting to me that they are there and willing to help.

These manifestations were spread out over almost 15yrs. But no-one can tell me that these answered prayers, keep in mind my only prayers for help, were absolutely the work of something greater with the ability to put things together quickly without a physical director of this planet. They/it/whatever made it happen. The first one still amazes me to this day how on-point the prayer was answered in such great detail just as I prayed. It's unexplainable. It's amazing, and I'm so thankful.

I just wanted to share that. I think this is a very valid addition to this thread.

[daved150]

Re: CHRISTIANS

With my AP biology and a buddy of mine that was on the more intellectual side of most high schoolers, we both had many questions about this "God". I had pretty much gotten to the point of not believing. I had no faith, I guess you could say. Well, that was just for a couple years, but the story that's told in the Bible which I have read, along with other spiritual books, just doesn't totally jive. I learned some very great knowledge from a book called Journey of the Soul.

Well, I learned that I truly never stopped believing in a higher power. And something that gets me, is to hear someone pray, and I know that allot of people pray everyday for things. Material things, financial help, not to say that these things aren't things they really need, but I don't believe in praying for things like that. I've never prayed that way. I just give great appreciation for the life I have (family, health...), talk to my guides because those are who you're speaking to when you pray. I believe the bible even tells you that. But people refer to these spiritual guides as "guardian angels". We all have them. They're close to us. The maker/s is way to far away, and much to busy to collect and give full attention to each and everyone's prayers. I was also taught to pray in Christ's name. I used to do that, until I came to believe that Christ, as the Jews know, is not God, but a profit.
Here's my point; I've been in a real low place in life and prayed hard for help. This happened on 4 separate occassions. The first couple times. I still prayed through Jesus. The last 2 I did not. I prayed though my guides to help, and just spoke what came natural. These 4 separate points in my life, that I was desperate for help and turned to a higher power. He/it/they answered. And came to my calling quickly. That was absolutely manifestation to me. The first prayer that was answered, was answered in such great detail, just as I prayed in great detail. I mean, he showed me that he's there when truly needed. Again, he/they/whatever, or whoever. What proved to me about Jesus is my second to prayers of desperation weren't prayers in his name, but rather prayers to my guides, and to get the maker involved, whatever...I don't remember exactly. But they were answered too. Very abruptly, manifesting to me that they are there and willing to help.

These manifestations were spread out over almost 15yrs. But no-one can tell me that these answered prayers, keep in mind my only prayers for help, were absolutely the work of something greater with the ability to put things together quickly without a physical director of this planet. They/it/whatever made it happen. The first one still amazes me to this day how on-point the prayer was answered in such great detail just as I prayed. It's unexplainable. It's amazing, and I'm so thankful.

I just wanted to share that. I think this is a very valid addition to this thread.

huh....soooo...dzone...my man d....d to the z zone...? you only sharing your shrooms with a chosen couple or can everyone have some??!!
lol...i get what your saying horse....it really just come down that everyone has their own opinion one way or the other....it dosnt matter that mine is the only right one, just matters that you realize there's a positive force among us...then...there's klash. he happy to be able to sit in the back of the class with franklin, jefferson and the rest of the knobheads, lol.

[Ironmako]

Re: CHRISTIANS

My 2 cents are people for the most part are stupid.

I've known cool muslims that I am friends with and I've even ate lunch with a muslim coworker who was a terrorist (didn't know he was at the time...the FBI popped him a few weeks after). I'm not going to judge the entire religion of Islam by a couple of people I met, and who over the course of conversation suggested I convert.

Same thing with Christians, since I am one I've known quite a few. All people are flawed, judge the message not the messenger.

There are good people, and there are people who suck.

I think a person who sucks, sucks on their own. They aren't special b/c they believe in Christ. They are flawed like we all are. Holding them up to a higher standard just means they'll meet expectations for them to fail easier.

What's that accomplish?

[daved150]

Re: CHRISTIANS

My 2 cents are people for the most part are stupid.

I've known cool muslims that I am friends with and I've even ate lunch with a muslim coworker who was a terrorist (didn't know he was at the time...the FBI popped him a few weeks after). I'm not going to judge the entire religion of Islam by a couple of people I met, and who over the course of conversation suggested I convert.

Same thing with Christians, since I am one I've known quite a few. All people are flawed, judge the message not the messenger.

There are good people, and there are people who suck.

I think a person who sucks, sucks on their own. They aren't special b/c they believe in Christ. They are flawed like we all are. Holding them up to a higher standard just means they'll meet expectations for them to fail easier.

What's that accomplish?

good points!!!

[Klash]

Re: CHRISTIANS

You bring up good points Klash - GREAT POINTS IN FACT!!!

I simply choose to believe is something greater - not necessarily better!!
But I have yet to see something come from nothing.

With that being said - there is no explanation for life as we know it.
Earth, flesh, air, THOUGHT and ENERGY!!
Until I can see something from nothing I feel it had to come from somewhere or something that's beyond my comprehension at this time in my development.

So some will call this GOD some may even call it BOB! LOL!
But if a tree falls in the forest -- did it really fall? <<< I can really go on a tangent here but let's keep this somewhat sensible.
You don't have to see it to have it be reasonably true - reasonably.

Sometimes - You don't have to see to believe - sometimes you must believe to see!
Sort of like the fallen tree - if I were to have never seen a tree standing I would not believe it could have stood upright if you and I were walking in the forest and came upon a fallen tree - how could I?
However, as my knowledge and understanding has grown - I no longer need to see that tree in the moment of falling to know that it once stood upright.

Sort of like the whole concept of GOD or something else - no one can prove it to you - good luck if they try - RIGHT!!
I can appreciate where you're coming from and as you can tell I don't believe as most do - in fact, it gets quite a bit more disturbing if I wwere to really go into it all.


So while there is no proof and you are somewhat correct in that the whole concept should have been dismissed - but all it may have needed was someone asking a simple question of "HOW DID THIS COME TO BE?"

Again - no suitable answer as something cannot come from nothing.
So that leaves me with where I am today.
A belief or faith if you will - in something more.


Sal

This is where theists unnecessarily compound the equation. You state something cannot come from nothing, you give examples of flesh, air earth, thought and energy. You state god is greater than these things, he is the creator of these things and thus he must even be more complex than these things but yet he is a "something" that came from nothing that you can accept, or you either believe in an eternal hierarchy of gods but then there is no initial creator and you wind up with a reality that always has been, it just contains god after god, after god. Why not just eliminate what we don't know and state the universe exists and maybe it always has.

[daved150]

Re: CHRISTIANS

This is where theists unnecessarily compound the equation. You state something cannot come from nothing, you give examples of flesh, air earth, thought and energy. You state god is greater than these things, he is the creator of these things and thus he must even be more complex than these things but yet he is a "something" that came from nothing that you can accept, or you either believe in an eternal hierarchy of gods but then there is no initial creator and you wind up with a reality that always has been, it just contains god after god, after god. Why not just eliminate what we don't know and state the universe exists and maybe it always has.

thats no fun!!!!

[Klash]

Re: CHRISTIANS

great reading guys.
i guess, after reading this, sal pretty much sums up my opinion on the matter the closest. i have faith that there is a god. i cant prove it, but so the fuk what! at one point in time, people couldnt prove the earth was round...didnt mean it wasnt. i guess thats why it's called faith.
and klash....i believe in bob!!!

Ummm yeah, think you got that backwards, if I remember correctly those who proclaimed the earth was round were oppressed by those with faith because in the bible it talks about a flat world with pillars holding it in the sky. The faithful also persecuted those who said the earth wasn't the center of the universe.

[Klash]

Re: CHRISTIANS

With my AP biology and a buddy of mine that was on the more intellectual side of most high schoolers, we both had many questions about this "God". I had pretty much gotten to the point of not believing. I had no faith, I guess you could say. Well, that was just for a couple years, but the story that's told in the Bible which I have read, along with other spiritual books, just doesn't totally jive. I learned some very great knowledge from a book called Journey of the Soul.

Well, I learned that I truly never stopped believing in a higher power. And something that gets me, is to hear someone pray, and I know that allot of people pray everyday for things. Material things, financial help, not to say that these things aren't things they really need, but I don't believe in praying for things like that. I've never prayed that way. I just give great appreciation for the life I have (family, health...), talk to my guides because those are who you're speaking to when you pray. I believe the bible even tells you that. But people refer to these spiritual guides as "guardian angels". We all have them. They're close to us. The maker/s is way to far away, and much to busy to collect and give full attention to each and everyone's prayers. I was also taught to pray in Christ's name. I used to do that, until I came to believe that Christ, as the Jews know, is not God, but a profit.
Here's my point; I've been in a real low place in life and prayed hard for help. This happened on 4 separate occassions. The first couple times. I still prayed through Jesus. The last 2 I did not. I prayed though my guides to help, and just spoke what came natural. These 4 separate points in my life, that I was desperate for help and turned to a higher power. He/it/they answered. And came to my calling quickly. That was absolutely manifestation to me. The first prayer that was answered, was answered in such great detail, just as I prayed in great detail. I mean, he showed me that he's there when truly needed. Again, he/they/whatever, or whoever. What proved to me about Jesus is my second to prayers of desperation weren't prayers in his name, but rather prayers to my guides, and to get the maker involved, whatever...I don't remember exactly. But they were answered too. Very abruptly, manifesting to me that they are there and willing to help.

These manifestations were spread out over almost 15yrs. But no-one can tell me that these answered prayers, keep in mind my only prayers for help, were absolutely the work of something greater with the ability to put things together quickly without a physical director of this planet. They/it/whatever made it happen. The first one still amazes me to this day how on-point the prayer was answered in such great detail just as I prayed. It's unexplainable. It's amazing, and I'm so thankful.

I just wanted to share that. I think this is a very valid addition to this thread.

I read that book. That's interesting.
For those of you raised Christian but don't now subscribe to typical Christian doctrine what was your progression like.
For Example. I was raised baptist and couldn't believe an all knowing god could be that intolerant. So I started considering myself just a Christian I believed Jesus was the son of god but everything else I was unsure of but I was hell bent on finding the one true god. Then I learned of the council of Nicea (sp). So then I started reading on books like Enoch and others, which got me interested in reincarnation, the eastern philosophies and Edgar Cayce. Which I found the concept of souls advancing through incarnations very appealing so that's what I believed but that was the problem; I knew that's why I wanted to believe it. So I realized I was an agnostic, because I didn't know if there was a god. A couple years later realized agnostics don't possess a belief in god and if you don't possess a belief in god your an atheist.

[Klash]

Re: CHRISTIANS

thats no fun!!!!

I think that has a lot to do with it. This mystical fantasy some people want to believe in is because they percieve it as more exciting or the alternative as more boring. I don't agree, I think once our society pulls their head out of each others ass, one day from our perspective mankind will look like gods. Reality is our playground.

[Dzone]

Re: CHRISTIANS

For me, to admit doubt about something that I held so dear to my heart for so many years, is very hard. But as I have grown in experience and wisdom, I am finding that Im more in line with what Klash has said here. I still think the teachings of Jesus are some of the most profound words of wisdom in histroy. I think Jesus has been widely misunderstood over the last 2,000 years. I do beleive there are a lot of shocked people who died and found out things werent what they thought in the afterlife.

As for our nation being Christian, well, I dont think it is the end of our civilization if our coins dont say 'In God we trust" or they take the ten commandments down from the court house. We dont have problems in our classrooms because they dont have a group prayer. I went to a catholic boarding school and we prayed all the time and 90% of the kids there were on dope.
The biggst threat to our future is people saying that America is falling apart. If we as a nation continue to repeat that mantra, then it will come to pass. There is just as much Christian and anti-Christian stuff going on now as there was 100 years ago.