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LOL...You tell your poor mom that. JK. There I would argue that it takes more faith to believe this is all a freak occurance that a Creator.
Well, I use to agree with you on this but you have to try and remove yourself from the social norm of "god exists". In our society the theist position is viewed as the default position - it is not. We are all born atheists, we must be indoctrinated to be theists. I say indoctrinated because there is no evidence of god, yet most of us are taught there is one, anyway and after the indoctrination most of us never leave the theist position. From a theist point of view atheists are just as faithful as theists because they believe atheists have "faith" in nothing. Where atheists deny faith. I do not say "there is no god", I say "I do not hold a belief in a god".
Slight difference but a good distinction. When theists are challenged by an atheists - they act as if there ideas of god are compatible. Most theists say atheists don't believe in god, which implies there is one and all theists (and their multitude of beliefs about god) interpret that as he doesn't believe in the "real" god (their own god). Scalleywag's god is different from Daved150's god, which is different from DJdiggler's god, which is different from PL456's god, etc., etc. They may have all been extremely influenced by the same source but each god is created differently.
What is that constant? There has to be a constant for these laws to have any basis. Einstein discovered his theories not invented them. Nature is able to produce patterns not mathmatical equations.
Unless you see man as a part of nature; then nature did produce mathmatical equations. I suppose we could be seen as nature's way of self realization.
We are all born atheists, we must be indoctrinated to be theists. I say indoctrinated because there is no evidence of god, yet most of us are taught there is one, anyway and after the indoctrination most of us never leave the theist position.
I disagree. Man is born with a desire to worship. Ancient cave drawings attest to that fact across many different cultures. As long as we have record man has been worshiping some god in some way shape or form. This is all documented so to say we are born atheists goes against all the evidence.
With all due respect I have been siting certain studies and examples from scientists and philosophers and what you have been presenting is your ideas. I have gone a long way in proving why I believe what I believe yet there is no evidence on your part. I would like to challenge you to present evidence.
Can someone tell me, keeping in mind that it is a law that you can not create life from dead matter, how intelligent life exists? How does some many forms of life exist? Tell me why we see animals go extinct yet no other life has formed to take its place?
I disagree. Man is born with a desire to worship. Ancient cave drawings attest to that fact across many different cultures. As long as we have record man has been worshiping some god in some way shape or form. This is all documented so to say we are born atheists goes against all the evidence.
Man is born with the desire to survive, god and religion are a consequence of that desire.
With all due respect I have been siting certain studies and examples from scientists and philosophers and what you have been presenting is your ideas. I have gone a long way in proving why I believe what I believe yet there is no evidence on your part. I would like to challenge you to present evidence.
Evidence on what? I cannot point to evidence that god does not exist, I can just point to what contradictions that belief leads to.
My ideas or beliefs are based on logic; meaning if I find a contradiction in my own observations, I look for the flawed premise and change my mind. I seek contradictions out in my own beliefs and so that is how I debate. I look for contradictions. That is why I enjoy these threads so much, it helps me go over my own beliefs and straighten them out, i.e. my beliefs are a result of introspection, a desire to remain consistent and contradiction free.
Can someone tell me, keeping in mind that it is a law that you can not create life from dead matter, how intelligent life exists? How does some many forms of life exist? Tell me why we see animals go extinct yet no other life has formed to take its place?
I don't like to get into the whole scientific argument of evolution vs. creationism (because it's tedious and boring) but is it not contradictory for people to try and rationally explain why evolution is wrong and then totally abandon all reason (which they were attempting to use to oppose evolution) and just say a god did it?
Slight difference but a good distinction. When theists are challenged by an atheists - they act as if there ideas of god are compatible. Most theists say atheists don't believe in god, which implies there is one and all theists (and their multitude of beliefs about god) interpret that as he doesn't believe in the "real" god (their own god). Scalleywag's god is different from Daved150's god, which is different from DJdiggler's god, which is different from PL456's god, etc., etc. They may have all been extremely influenced by the same source but each god is created differently.
this ones kinda weak...i'd expect better from ya klash. everyone see's everyone diff. some people see me as a freind, some see me as an asshole, some think i'm caring, other think i'm shelfish...maybe i'm a little of all...maybe i'm not much of any, but i do exist. (dont give me that "i know YOU exist 'cause i can see you" or "..becouse there's proof of you" bullshyt...you get my point!). just want to see better from ya in the future bro...sharpen up a little, lol. (dont worry...i still got your back. my god's the man, trust me)
HE WHO MAKES A BEAST OF HIMSELF, GET'S RID OF THE PAIN OF BEING A MAN!!
Man is born with the desire to survive, god and religion are a consequence of that desire.
Evidence on what? I cannot point to evidence that god does not exist, I can just point to what contradictions that belief leads to.
My ideas or beliefs are based on logic; meaning if I find a contradiction in my own observations, I look for the flawed premise and change my mind. I seek contradictions out in my own beliefs and so that is how I debate. I look for contradictions. That is why I enjoy these threads so much, it helps me go over my own beliefs and straighten them out, i.e. my beliefs are a result of introspection, a desire to remain consistent and contradiction free.
I don't like to get into the whole scientific argument of evolution vs. creationism (because it's tedious and boring) but is it not contradictory for people to try and rationally explain why evolution is wrong and then totally abandon all reason (which they were attempting to use to oppose evolution) and just say a god did it?
You don't have to provide any proof that God does not exist. I would just like to see a little factual information that you base your beliefs on. We all think our children are angels and would never do anything wrong until another parent catches them ripping the wings off of butterflies. Now some parents look at the evidence and come to the conclussion that their kid needs a little work. A few parents go into complete denial and continue to think of their children as angels, dismissing the evidence.
Now to that last part, to say there is a Creator is not saying we abandon all reasoning and say that God did it? The more we find out, and creationists are working just as hard as atheists, the more we understand the delicate balance. The more we understand that balance, the moe we are in awe of just how great God really is.
Klash, you have some very good points. I don't know how well I have done in countering those points but I have tried to do it from a scientific point of view. As I said when we started, we can agree to disagree and we will be no less of friends. I have poured over this stuff for some time now and the conclussion I came to is based off of the evidence that we have before us at this time not an idea. I would like to challenge you to read a couple of books:
The End of the World: From the Standpoint of Mathmatical Physics
Arthur Eddington Creator-Evolution, the Controversy R. Wysong The Answer Book Ken Hamm
Anything from Hugh Ross
These are just a few of the more open minded books. Its just a thought. I know you like to be stimulated intellectually and these books will do so. If they change your mind...great, if not....thats fine too.
this ones kinda weak...i'd expect better from ya klash. everyone see's everyone diff. some people see me as a freind, some see me as an asshole, some think i'm caring, other think i'm shelfish...maybe i'm a little of all...maybe i'm not much of any, but i do exist. (dont give me that "i know YOU exist 'cause i can see you" or "..becouse there's proof of you" bullshyt...you get my point!). just want to see better from ya in the future bro...sharpen up a little, lol. (dont worry...i still got your back. my god's the man, trust me)
True but how someone perceives your character does not determine where they are going to spend eternity and you don't have a 2 inch book dedicated to defining your character and desires.
We're are talking about an omnipotent, omniscient god. An omniscient god should be able to articulate his character so precisely there would be very little room for controversy. Think of some of the most articulate people you know - an omniscient god would at least have those skills.
And you made a good counter-point to your own point. People can observe you, if we disagree on your character, we could determine what relative terms were responsible for the "disagreement".
You don't have to provide any proof that God does not exist. I would just like to see a little factual information that you base your beliefs on. We all think our children are angels and would never do anything wrong until another parent catches them ripping the wings off of butterflies. Now some parents look at the evidence and come to the conclussion that their kid needs a little work. A few parents go into complete denial and continue to think of their children as angels, dismissing the evidence.
I base my beliefs on the axiom that our reality/omniverse (however it exists) is objective and independent of man and his beliefs. This is a philosophical position and I cannot prove it or state facts and studies to support it. It is self-evident. Others will state there opposing metaphysical beliefs are self-evident too but then have no solutions for apparent contradictions their beliefs lead to.
If you would like a Philosophers name that I am most closely aligned with, it would be Ayn Rand. Objectivism is the philosophy she discovered. She has written many non-fiction books on philosophy (Philosophy: Who needs it?" is my favorite) and there are many more critical web sites out there on her, if you are just interested in that.
Klash, you have some very good points. I don't know how well I have done in countering those points but I have tried to do it from a scientific point of view. As I said when we started, we can agree to disagree and we will be no less of friends. I have poured over this stuff for some time now and the conclussion I came to is based off of the evidence that we have before us at this time not an idea. I would like to challenge you to read a couple of books:
The End of the World: From the Standpoint of Mathmatical Physics
Arthur Eddington Creator-Evolution, the Controversy R. Wysong The Answer Book Ken Hamm
Anything from Hugh Ross
These are just a few of the more open minded books. Its just a thought. I know you like to be stimulated intellectually and these books will do so. If they change your mind...great, if not....thats fine too.
You guys have a good day.
Thanks, I will look into them but it takes me forever to read books now days (kids) but I'll put them in my txt file for future reads.
You guys are a trip! I imagine I will have to take Dave's approach and disagree with everything Klash says as well. Not cause I don't like you I just want to see what you have to say.
Ok science and the supernatural......the two do not mix, as we should all know by know. Science is based upon the 5 senses or extensions of the 5 senses (ie a telescope, microscope, etc). With what sense can one validate a god? Empiricism is the hallmark of science (and remember science is just a method of acquiring knowledge) which means we can independently test any idea and everyone will come up with the same results. Again does not work with the supernatural. Creationists that try to use science to prove the supernatural do not understand what science is! Read any book by Dawkins, he is the leading evolutionary biologist and he specifically addresses creationist's attempts at science.
So lets break this down as this is a huge topic.
First off the onus is on the person trying to prove an idea not on a person to disprove an idea. If I said that our good friend superman (who is ascribed to have supernatural powers) was responsible for the creation of all things in the universe would it be reasonable for me to say to you, "prove to me that is not the case". That is essentially what you have done. You must supply scientific or otherwise, information to support the existence of a god.
What evidence have you produced that proves a god? the only one is pascals law of biogenesis, which I have already addressed is not only archaic but too simplistic. It does not address the simple life forms, it is in contention of advanced life forms only, in other words we cannot just pull a chicken out of thin air!
To address the origins of life I must first ask do you acknowledge evolution? If you believe that evolution occurred but that the source of everything is a god, then we can go from there or do you ascribe to special creation where everything on this earth was made just the way it is today.
I now you asked about why there are no new species in a previous post, but i ask you this, do you really think that all the species we have discovered (dinosaurs to mammals) could have existed all together? If not then you must acknowledge that each creature is an later development over much earlier species. If you understand the natural world you must know that there are ecological niches that cannot be occupied by multiple creatures at the same time, ie and lion and a T-rex could not compete against oneanother for food.
Now you mentioned how early man (interesting that you acknowledge a form of man that does not exist today) and their cave paintings, in all the cave paintings ever discovered they all have to do with everyday life, hunting (all the different animals) and the natural world. There are no "pictures' of a god or gods (and remember all the earliest ideas of religion we know of were all pantheistic!). now with neanderthals we have discovered grave sites where the bodies have flower petals strewn over the body and a few possessions put in the grave, again it just shows that they had a reverence for the person, not an acknowledgement of a god. I would argue though that all humans as soon as we achieved consciousness, needed answers to the world, life and death etc and without developing science at the time religion filled the gaps nicely.
It is interesting to note that the earliest religious icon we have found is what have become known as the "mother earth" icon. A very plump naked woman, usually depicting large breasts and open legs, a symbol of fertility (one of the earliest types of religion in an agrarian society). The earliest religions we know about are nothing like the religions that exist today. Study the history of religion sometime and you will find that the Judeo-Christian idea of a god is the culmination of many older cultures ideas! We won't get into that right now though.
Now you ask me how intelligent life came about.....how would I or anyone else know. Fist off what is intelligence? We humans consider ourselves intelligent compared to an ant yet look at how irrational we are, that is not a hallmark of intelligence. It seems that all your arguements keep coming back to the premise that if we cannot explain something then its only reasonable explaination is god! I like superman personally but you can use god if you like! lol
Lastly I just wanted to address the fact that you mentioned you are a Christian. Believing in a god and being a Christian are two different things. We could have been debating a Jew for all we know, as the existence of the theistic god and the beleif that a god/man came into being are completely distinct from one another. Here is the interesting thing, Christians love to mention faith as the cornerstone of their beliefs, but if one is questioning how things came into being is that going against the faith that it was god and god alone that does everything? Sorry I just need some clarification on that, I know if I said I had faith in a god and that is all I need is that faith then why would I "keep looking". I applaud you personally, one should never stop looking for the answers but I have heard this many times and am trying to understand what is seeminly a contradiction!
Ok science and the supernatural......the two do not mix, as we should all know by know. Science is based upon the 5 senses or extensions of the 5 senses (ie a telescope, microscope, etc). With what sense can one validate a god? Empiricism is the hallmark of science (and remember science is just a method of acquiring knowledge) which means we can independently test any idea and everyone will come up with the same results. Again does not work with the supernatural. Creationists that try to use science to prove the supernatural do not understand what science is! Read any book by Dawkins, he is the leading evolutionary biologist and he specifically addresses creationist's attempts at science.
So lets break this down as this is a huge topic.
First off the onus is on the person trying to prove an idea not on a person to disprove an idea. If I said that our good friend superman (who is ascribed to have supernatural powers) was responsible for the creation of all things in the universe would it be reasonable for me to say to you, "prove to me that is not the case". That is essentially what you have done. You must supply scientific or otherwise, information to support the existence of a god.
What evidence have you produced that proves a god? the only one is pascals law of biogenesis, which I have already addressed is not only archaic but too simplistic. It does not address the simple life forms, it is in contention of advanced life forms only, in other words we cannot just pull a chicken out of thin air!
To address the origins of life I must first ask do you acknowledge evolution? If you believe that evolution occurred but that the source of everything is a god, then we can go from there or do you ascribe to special creation where everything on this earth was made just the way it is today.
I now you asked about why there are no new species in a previous post, but i ask you this, do you really think that all the species we have discovered (dinosaurs to mammals) could have existed all together? If not then you must acknowledge that each creature is an later development over much earlier species. If you understand the natural world you must know that there are ecological niches that cannot be occupied by multiple creatures at the same time, ie and lion and a T-rex could not compete against oneanother for food.
Now you mentioned how early man (interesting that you acknowledge a form of man that does not exist today) and their cave paintings, in all the cave paintings ever discovered they all have to do with everyday life, hunting (all the different animals) and the natural world. There are no "pictures' of a god or gods (and remember all the earliest ideas of religion we know of were all pantheistic!). now with neanderthals we have discovered grave sites where the bodies have flower petals strewn over the body and a few possessions put in the grave, again it just shows that they had a reverence for the person, not an acknowledgement of a god. I would argue though that all humans as soon as we achieved consciousness, needed answers to the world, life and death etc and without developing science at the time religion filled the gaps nicely.
It is interesting to note that the earliest religious icon we have found is what have become known as the "mother earth" icon. A very plump naked woman, usually depicting large breasts and open legs, a symbol of fertility (one of the earliest types of religion in an agrarian society). The earliest religions we know about are nothing like the religions that exist today. Study the history of religion sometime and you will find that the Judeo-Christian idea of a god is the culmination of many older cultures ideas! We won't get into that right now though.
Now you ask me how intelligent life came about.....how would I or anyone else know. Fist off what is intelligence? We humans consider ourselves intelligent compared to an ant yet look at how irrational we are, that is not a hallmark of intelligence. It seems that all your arguements keep coming back to the premise that if we cannot explain something then its only reasonable explaination is god! I like superman personally but you can use god if you like! lol
Lastly I just wanted to address the fact that you mentioned you are a Christian. Believing in a god and being a Christian are two different things. We could have been debating a Jew for all we know, as the existence of the theistic god and the beleif that a god/man came into being are completely distinct from one another. Here is the interesting thing, Christians love to mention faith as the cornerstone of their beliefs, but if one is questioning how things came into being is that going against the faith that it was god and god alone that does everything? Sorry I just need some clarification on that, I know if I said I had faith in a god and that is all I need is that faith then why would I "keep looking". I applaud you personally, one should never stop looking for the answers but I have heard this many times and am trying to understand what is seeminly a contradiction!
Sweet post bro, very well written and good points.
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Interesting how that period showed up! 
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