Evolution is bunk...

[Klash]

Re: Evolution is bunk...

Hey Klash!
Basically, yes. If left to our own devices, with no moral guidance, how would we humans treat each other? Would we strive to live at peace with one another, or would we simply take what we wanted, and kill anybody that got in our way? Watch how little children act when there is not an adult present, and I think you'll find the answer.

So men without god are equivalent to anarchist, i.e. little children?(rhetorical question)
Men defined moral guidance. Your god was defined by men and yes we can maintain an intelligent morality without a Santa Clause or any other invisible omnipotent creature.

I do not believe in any religion yet I possess morals and respect the rights of human life, more than alot of christians.

So, because of that oldest child's disobedience, sin and death were brought into this hypothetical household. Now, the Father tells the children that come after, "my children, your oldest brother has brought a plague into this house. The only way to avoid it is to accept this Gift I want to give you. And I want to give it to you, because I want you to live with me forever." If you were one of those last nine children, would you accept that gift, or perish?

Ok, well go with your analogy - the plague but it is going to have to be modified to run parallel with the christian god. The plague the oldest son brought in the house was created by his father, it's accessibility was provided by the father, the law that accessing the plague was wrong was defined by the father, the fact the plague is contagious was defined by the father and the damnation to an eternity of hell was created by the father, not only was it all created by the father but could be abolished by him at any moment. But instead of abolishing the plague he decided that the cure came with a price: you must give him your soul, that he also created. So we have came full circle, well at least the ones that play his game. The others that see this as some sensless psychotic power trip will burn, as defined by the father, for eternity - so said the father.

[NewCreation]

Re: Evolution is bunk...

Hey Klash!

You know, I will give you credit, at least you do read what's being said, and understand what I'm saying, and respond in a relatively calm manner (most of the time, terms like "Bible-thumper" and "backwards" get sprinkled into the mix). If I could just get you to understand that man did not invent God, but God created man. And that even with all the things you are saying about Him, He is still willing to forgive. He loves you, bro. Maybe someday you could love Him the same way.

[Klash]

Re: Evolution is bunk...

Hey Klash!

You know, I will give you credit, at least you do read what's being said, and understand what I'm saying, and respond in a relatively calm manner (most of the time, terms like "Bible-thumper" and "backwards" get sprinkled into the mix). If I could just get you to understand that man did not invent God, but God created man. And that even with all the things you are saying about Him, He is still willing to forgive. He loves you, bro. Maybe someday you could love Him the same way.

It all comes back to faith vs. reason. You can't get me to understand that god created man because that would require me to abandon reason. I can't get you to understand that man invented god because you would have to abandon faith, which your core beliefs are built on. Just as I could still turn to the christian god, you can still free your mind.

[T-Man007]

Re: Evolution is bunk...

I look at it like this:
I believe in God and his son Jesus. Therefore, if I'm wrong then I've lived my life the best I could while putting God and other before myself. If I'm wrong about God, I've lost nothing. But, the nonbeliever, who lives their life for worldy things, if they are wrong then they will suffer condemnation FOREVER. It's clearly better to believe and be wrong than to not believe and be wrong.

A free mind is not one of the world but one that believes in God. The simple mind is the one that relies on logic and reason because it can't fathom faith. Yet, hypocritically, the logical mind is the one that believes in theories that have no proof.

How is trust in unproved theories more logical, or reasonable, than events documented by eyewithnesses?

Answer: It's not.

Let me tell you a story about evolution, it's a story! There are fossils of 40 million year old bumble bees and flies. WTF? You mean to tell me that all these animals evolved but the bee and the fly? Two very simple insects are still the same today as they were 40 million years ago, yet man went from monkey to what we are today. That's anything but reasonable. Simple creatures "supposidly" were believed to evolve more than complex ones. This obviously isn't the case. Thus, evolution isn't reasonable.

[Klash]

Re: Evolution is bunk...

I look at it like this:
I believe in God and his son Jesus. Therefore, if I'm wrong then I've lived my life the best I could while putting God and other before myself. If I'm wrong about God, I've lost nothing. But, the nonbeliever, who lives their life for worldy things, if they are wrong then they will suffer condemnation FOREVER. It's clearly better to believe and be wrong than to not believe and be wrong.

I have spoke to alot of christians who think this way.
First off your god judges people according to ones belief in jesus. So it is clear your god reads peoples minds. So he knows you are playing it safe, to avoid hell. You admit you could be wrong but better safe than sorry. What degree of doubt does god permit to enter heaven?

A free mind is not one of the world but one that believes in God. The simple mind is the one that relies on logic and reason because it can't fathom faith. Yet, hypocritically, the logical mind is the one that believes in theories that have no proof.

Your god controls his followers by force (the fear of hell, torture for eternity). A free mind under your god is unobtainable.

Let me tell you a story about evolution, it's a story! There are fossils of 40 million year old bumble bees and flies. WTF? You mean to tell me that all these animals evolved but the bee and the fly? Two very simple insects are still the same today as they were 40 million years ago, yet man went from monkey to what we are today. That's anything but reasonable. Simple creatures "supposidly" were believed to evolve more than complex ones. This obviously isn't the case. Thus, evolution isn't reasonable.

What is more reasonable?

So because you believe evolution is unreasonable, you plug magic and the supernatural into the equation to compensate for its shortcomings.

A christian cannot submit to reason to argue against evolution. Then turn on reason to support their god.

[roark]

Re: Evolution is bunk...

I have spoke to alot of christians who think this way.
First off your god judges people according to ones belief in jesus. So it is clear your god reads peoples minds. So he knows you are playing it safe, to avoid hell. You admit you could be wrong but better safe than sorry. What degree of doubt does god permit to enter heaven?



Your god controls his followers by force (the fear of hell, torture for eternity). A free mind under your god is unobtainable.



What is more reasonable?

So because you believe evolution is unreasonable, you plug magic and the supernatural into the equation to compensate for its shortcomings.

A christian cannot submit to reason to argue against evolution. Then turn on reason to support their god.

yup

[Cipher]

Re: Evolution is bunk...

Heres what I believe. First off, the earth is not 40 Million years old. The earth is still very young in comparison. Secondly, we believe whole heartedly that there is the True and Living God. His son, Jesus, was sent to die on the cross for the sins of the world. We live the way we live because we have faith in God and Jesus. I believe that im going to heaven not for what I can offer God (works) but for what God offered me through Jesus Christ. I dont look at it like "if there is no God then I have lost nothing", although I know some that do. That doesnt mean that they are not going to Heaven. We use that phrase for conversations like this one. God does not control anyone by any means.

Is he controlling you? Does he make you worship him? Does he make you get out of bed when you dont want to? Does he make you go to church?

No he doesnt. God gave us all free will to choose what we will in life. He hopes that we will choose him instead of the world.

Evolution is unreasonable in my eyes. The earth is not 40 Million years old. When I worked for NASA scientists could not prove it. The bible say God created the earth in 6 calendar days and rested on the 7th. That is where I believe the earth came from. I refuse to acknowledge that I evolved from anything. Adapt, yes but not evolved.

And last but not least, why dont you pick up some books on dedicated scientists who spent there entire life trying to disprove creation only to turn their lives over to the Lord after not being able to disprove it.

Thanks for listening,
Ciph

If you have any specific ?'s im always here to answer

[T-Man007]

Re: Evolution is bunk...

I have spoke to alot of christians who think this way.
First off your god judges people according to ones belief in jesus. So it is clear your god reads peoples minds. So he knows you are playing it safe, to avoid hell. You admit you could be wrong but better safe than sorry. What degree of doubt does god permit to enter heaven?

It is not clear God reads peoples minds, it is clear he reads their hearts and the heart doesn't lie. Your heart is good or it's bad and God judges you on what's in your heart. Therefore, there is no such thing as playing it safe. You can't fool God. And no, I never admitted I could be wrong. I wrote, and was very clear about it, IF I was wrong that is better than someone in your position being wrong. My very first sentence tells my beliefs and I do not believe I'm wrong.

Your god controls his followers by force (the fear of hell, torture for eternity). A free mind under your god is unobtainable.

Wrong. You have free choice. You and only you choose, Heaven or Hell. God doesn't control us, we control ourselves and our enernity.

What is more reasonable?

So because you believe evolution is unreasonable, you plug magic and the supernatural into the equation to compensate for its shortcomings.

A christian cannot submit to reason to argue against evolution. Then turn on reason to support their god.

No, you got it all wrong. I don't plug "supernatural" into anything. I put faith in God's word over man's theories. The Bible is a book of documented facts from eyewitnesses.

Can you "prove", beyond a reasonable doubt, that the eyewitness accounts of the Bible did not happen? If you can't disprove the Bible then it must be true. No one can "prove" it isn't true, the best they can do is say "it's not logical". If I went back in time just 250 years and described jet planes, space shuttles, scuba diving, personal computers, cell phones and digital cameras to the greatest minds of that era they would say "that's not logical". But yet, we both know it is "logical" because we have or have seen all of these things.

Logic is the science of reasoning. Thus, as with all scientific findings, there must be data to support it. That data is called the Bible. There is no better testimony than that of an eyewitness. Thousands of convictions take place in court rooms all across this nation every month based solely on eyewitness accounts. If an eyewitness is good enough to convict a murderer without any "physical evidence", then it's good enough for me to believe those that wrote the Bible.

[Klash]

Re: Evolution is bunk...

It is not clear God reads peoples minds, it is clear he reads their hearts and the heart doesn't lie. Your heart is good or it's bad and God judges you on what's in your heart. Therefore, there is no such thing as playing it safe. You can't fool God. And no, I never admitted I could be wrong. I wrote, and was very clear about it, IF I was wrong that is better than someone in your position being wrong. My very first sentence tells my beliefs and I do not believe I'm wrong.

Well, whatever organ you base your descisions on! Heart, Brain or any other organ that makes decisions for you.

It is more than if your heart is good or bad. You have to believe Jesus was the son of god. A decision you must make to avoid hell.

What I'm asking is what if a man wants and claims to believe in jesus but his intellect won't permit it, deep down he thinks it's a bunch of hoaky. Is simply wanting and claiming to believe in Jesus, enough. (Please do not mistake this comment, as I wish to know Jesus, it is just a question.)

Wrong. You have free choice. You and only you choose, Heaven or Hell. God doesn't control us, we control ourselves and our enernity.

Just as a victim of a mugging chooses to live or die by giving his money. There is no free will once force is attached to an option by another person.
It is called coercion. Do this or die, is essentially what your god is saying.

Can you "prove", beyond a reasonable doubt, that the eyewitness accounts of the Bible did not happen? If you can't disprove the Bible then it must be true.

I have a pamphlet of god writing through me a divine message. Since you can't prove it wrong it must be true. In my life if someone makes a claim it is up to them to prove they are correct, not up to me to prove them all wrong.

[roark]

Re: Evolution is bunk...

Well, whatever organ you base your descisions on! Heart, Brain or any other organ that makes decisions for you.

It is more than if your heart is good or bad. You have to believe Jesus was the son of god. A decision you must make to avoid hell.

What I'm asking is what if a man wants and claims to believe in jesus but his intellect won't permit it, deep down he thinks it's a bunch of hoaky. Is simply wanting and claiming to believe in Jesus, enough. (Please do not mistake this comment, as I wish to know Jesus, it is just a question.)





Just as a victim of a mugging chooses to live or die by giving his money. There is no free will once force is attached to an option by another person.
It is called coercion. Do this or die, is essentially what your god is saying.




I have a pamphlet of god writing through me a divine message. Since you can't prove it wrong it must be true. In my life if someone makes a claim it is up to them to prove they are correct, not up to me to prove them all wrong.

yup X2

[T-Man007]

Re: Evolution is bunk...

Well, whatever organ you base your descisions on! Heart, Brain or any other organ that makes decisions for you.

It is more than if your heart is good or bad. You have to believe Jesus was the son of god. A decision you must make to avoid hell.

What I'm asking is what if a man wants and claims to believe in jesus but his intellect won't permit it, deep down he thinks it's a bunch of hoaky. Is simply wanting and claiming to believe in Jesus, enough. (Please do not mistake this comment, as I wish to know Jesus, it is just a question.)

No man will ever seek God on his own, God must call him to him. A man who seeks to know Jesus is a man who is called to God and therefore should pursue it. No one is worthy of righteousness, no one. God, however, chooses some to seek him out. He does not choose all nor does he owe us anything. Those who are called are blessed and those who aren't called remain unworthy.

Just as a victim of a mugging chooses to live or die by giving his money. There is no free will once force is attached to an option by another person. It is called coercion. Do this or die, is essentially what your god is saying.

I totally disagree. Your illustraion is silly because it is based on a victim being forced to give into a selfish act. God is not saying "I want this or else" he is saying "I have all this to offer you, if only you..." God's intentions are good and the muggers intentions are evil. Which makes this comparision uncomparable.

I have a pamphlet of god writing through me a divine message. Since you can't prove it wrong it must be true. In my life if someone makes a claim it is up to them to prove they are correct, not up to me to prove them all wrong.

Well, that's why you don't get it. That also doesn't sound like a man who "frees" his mind, but instead has a closed off one-sided thought process.

[T-Man007]

Re: Evolution is bunk...

yup X2

Just wondering, do you have any original thoughts of your own, or do you just plan to say "yup" to what Klash says?

[roark]

Re: Evolution is bunk...

Just wondering, do you have any original thoughts of your own, or do you just plan to say "yup" to what Klash says?

I've had and heard these same arguments over and over again. I don't see the point in rehashing everything over again. So, I will just agree with Klash because he is right.

Yup x3

[T-Man007]

Re: Evolution is bunk...

I've had and heard these same arguments over and over again. I don't see the point in rehashing everything over again. So, I will just agree with Klash because he is right.

Yup x3

But he's not right, he's lost.

[roark]

Re: Evolution is bunk...

But he's not right, he's lost.

semantics