Evolution is bunk...

[edvedr]

Re: Evolution is bunk...

I think the english is pretty easy to understand, for today an ox=atuomoblie and so on. A wife s still a wife, to kill or murder still brings death, to bare false witness is still lying.

I think the problem today is everyone trys to over spiritualize the Bible and make it say things it doesn't say. There are no hidden meanings in the Bible, you may need to get a better understanding of Jewish culture back then to understand certain thing but I didn't bring any of those up.

If I didn't understand you help me out here.

JohnnyB

i was asking for clarification on what you said about being free of the ten commandments. sorry but the english is not easy to understand for me. thats why i asked you to break it down for me, not give me more passages to read. by all means i'm not meaning to come across as a prick here so sorry if i do, but this is my exact frustration with christianity. when ever i ask a question its followed by more of the same things that i asked a question about. not a clear answer. and this goes for everyone i have talked to including a pastor. and when ever i keep pushing for answers it always leads to an uncomfortable situation. eventually EVERY person has resorted to talking down to me because they get frustrated with me. well thats not very christian like is it, so how am i suppose to take christianity into my life if it always comes back to that. thats why i stopped asking with you johnny, i didn't want it to turn into a thread like the no porn thread with PL456.

[SUGARBABY]

Re: Evolution is bunk...

i was asking for clarification on what you said about being free of the ten commandments. sorry but the english is not easy to understand for me. thats why i asked you to break it down for me, not give me more passages to read. by all means i'm not meaning to come across as a prick here so sorry if i do, but this is my exact frustration with christianity. when ever i ask a question its followed by more of the same things that i asked a question about. not a clear answer. and this goes for everyone i have talked to including a pastor. and when ever i keep pushing for answers it always leads to an uncomfortable situation. eventually EVERY person has resorted to talking down to me because they get frustrated with me. well thats not very christian like is it, so how am i suppose to take christianity into my life if it always comes back to that. thats why i stopped asking with you johnny, i didn't want it to turn into a thread like the no porn thread with PL456.

Not EVERY person, eddie (*points to my cute self*) - We need to read that book together and go through some topics. I wish you lived closer so we could sit down with my pastor - you would LOOOVE him!

I agree with your frustration and I understand how you must feel!

[NewCreation]

Re: Evolution is bunk...

edvedr,

I'll try to break it down for you concerning our being freed from the Law through Christ. But to do it, I'll have to go all the way back to the Garden of Eden.

When Adam took and ate the fruit which God had told him not to eat (Genesis 2:17, 3:6), then as the Apostle Paul wrote in Romans 5:12, "sin entered the world, and death through sin." In other words, because Adam disobeyed God, and we are all descended from Adam, we all inherit that sinful nature from him. This is what is referred to as "original sin". Fast-forward to the Book of Exodus. This was when God gave the Law (The Ten Commandments and the sacrificial system) to Moses. This Law was a foreshadowing of Christ (Hebrews chapter 9). Now, when Christ came, He did not come to do away with the Law, but to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17-18). In other words, since there is no man who can perfectly keep the Law of God(Romans 3:23), He sent Christ to keep the Law, and to be our sacrifice for sin (II Corinthians 5:21, I John 2:2, Romans 3:25). Therefore, if we repent (or, turn away) from our sins, confess to God that we have failed Him, and accept our new life in Christ, then we are "freed from the Law of sin and death."(Romans 8:2). It's not that we can just go do anything we want and say "It's OK, I'm saved"(Galatians 5:13), but we rely on the Holy Spirit to guide us (Galatians 5:18).

I hope this helps. I will be glad to answer any other questions you may have.

[JohnnyB]

Re: Evolution is bunk...

Bro the only reason I kept using Scripture is because my opinions don't matter, you have to come to this knowledge on your own. I can persuade you to believe, that way the passages from the Bible.

Bro I was at the same place you are now before I became a Christian, then a pastor answered my question but also gave my the Scripture to rear so I could make my own decision, that's what I was trying to do with you, I'm not trying to Bible beat you. the Bible isn't some super spiritual book that needs special people to interpret it for so you can come to the knowledge of it or the same as their.

I was trying to lead you to your own conclusion, but here is the break down. We are all under the law, it is what all humans will be judged by when they stand before God for judgement. If you believe in what Christ did for you with His life then your free from the law, which means free from judgement.

What passages do you need help with? The ones listed above

JohnnyB

[JohnnyB]

Re: Evolution is bunk...

edvedr,

I'll try to break it down for you concerning our being freed from the Law through Christ. But to do it, I'll have to go all the way back to the Garden of Eden.

When Adam took and ate the fruit which God had told him not to eat (Genesis 2:17, 3:6), then as the Apostle Paul wrote in Romans 5:12, "sin entered the world, and death through sin." In other words, because Adam disobeyed God, and we are all descended from Adam, we all inherit that sinful nature from him. This is what is referred to as "original sin". Fast-forward to the Book of Exodus. This was when God gave the Law (The Ten Commandments and the sacrificial system) to Moses. This Law was a foreshadowing of Christ (Hebrews chapter 9). Now, when Christ came, He did not come to do away with the Law, but to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17-18). In other words, since there is no man who can perfectly keep the Law of God(Romans 3:23), He sent Christ to keep the Law, and to be our sacrifice for sin (II Corinthians 5:21, I John 2:2, Romans 3:25). Therefore, if we repent (or, turn away) from our sins, confess to God that we have failed Him, and accept our new life in Christ, then we are "freed from the Law of sin and death."(Romans 8:2). It's not that we can just go do anything we want and say "It's OK, I'm saved"(Galatians 5:13), but we rely on the Holy Spirit to guide us (Galatians 5:18).

I hope this helps. I will be glad to answer any other questions you may have.

Good break down.

JohnnyB

[edvedr]

Re: Evolution is bunk...

well its not that i needed help understanding the passages as much as i was just lookin for an explanation as to exactly what being freed from the law was. both of u (johnny and new creation) did just clarify it for me with ur last 2 posts. that is the conclusion i came up with but since i am not very familiar with this i wanted to make sure i was interpreting it correctly. thanks guys

[JohnnyB]

Re: Evolution is bunk...

Sounds like you're doing fine

JohnnyB

[T-Man007]

Re: Evolution is bunk...

ED, I used to have the same problems too. It's very hard to interpret it without a mentor. I've had many study buddies and groups but until I got a mentor who really knew their stuff and decided to take me under his wing I was confused about a lot of things. I could go on for hours about all the things I thought to be true and have been shown where they aren't true. The problem with asking just any Christian about Christianity is most of us aren't teachers, were students and we don't know the best way to explain things. There are topics I'm confident in but I would never sell someone short by suggesting I could mentor them. I think you've just been asking the wrong people. Maybe it's a challenge from God. I know when my wife prays for patience it seems like she gets tested to the max. (Be careful what you ask for, you might get it)

PM if you ever want to talk about it. If I can help I will, if I can't I'll tell you so before I mislead you.

[NewCreation]

Re: Evolution is bunk...

Thanks Johnny!!

[SUGARBABY]

Re: Evolution is bunk...

New Creation - that was an excellent post - clear and concise!

We are glad you are part of the FG Family!

[NewCreation]

Re: Evolution is bunk...

Thanks for the props SugarBaby I've been reading posts on this site for a few weeks, picking up pointers from different folks (especially Professor FUZO). This seems like a group of folks that know what they're talking about, really care about each other deeply, and are happy to help out us newbies. I'm glad to be here!

[Klash]

Re: Evolution is bunk...

Even Dr. Stephen Hawking (an agnostic) has gone on record saying that there is overwhelming evidence that there is intelligent design behind our universe.

Stephen Hawking does not support I.D., he considers it a pseudoscience.

http://www.ncseweb.org/article.asp?category=18

Lets just think about this:
Humans have no integrated defenses, we have no claws, fangs, protective skin, we are the most vulnerable animal on the planet. Until you factor in our intelligence. Humans survive by analysis and reason (i.e. logic). We survive by observing reality and making intelligible decisions and manipulating our environment to us (technology).

Now to be a creationist you have to believe that the very skill "god" gave you to survive is the very thing he demands you to ignore. You are to believe with "faith" (ignore logic) that a book put together by a council of men (that ignored logic) though a democratic processes (Proverbs made it by one vote 11 to 10 j/k), that had been translated and written over a 2100 year period is not just the truth but the word of an omnipotent being. If you do not ignore the gift god gave you (reason) to survive on this planet - he tortures you for freaking eternity. Oh yeah, after 2000 years of scripture, this omnipotentbeing decides his plan isn't working out so good. So he sends his son to earth, through a human virgin girl, to sacrafice his life, so he can change his plan up a little.

Science does not have all the answers and that is why evolution is still categorized as a theory. Although, once you start involving supernatural events as theories or even hypothesis while disregarding reason, how do you dispute them? You can't, so you have over 6 billion theories on human origins with the same amount of logic - none. Well now that reason is abandoned maybe we can convince ourselves we're all right.

I would be interested in the information about this debunker, though.

[NewCreation]

Re: Evolution is bunk...

Greetings Klash,

Maybe I can help you out here.

Humans survive by analysis and reason (i.e. logic). We survive by observing reality and making intelligible decisions and manipulating our environment to us (technology).

What we call logic is nothing more than what we human beings can understand in our own minds. These minds are very limited. But we do know this: In the same way we see a Pepsi can, and know that somebody made it, it only stands to reason that since we live in a universe that exists, someone must have created it. Agreed?

Furthermore, God gave us not only logic, but also something called "faith". Anything we hear or read about, that we did not actually see, we must believe by faith. All of the science books, all the history books, if we believe what they tell us, it is because we put our faith in the authors. But how do you know that what they are telling you is always the truth? After all, have you actually measured the distance to the sun? Were we there at Custer's Last Stand? Besides, aren't all these books put together by "councils of men", who have faith in what other "councils of men" have written?

Now, as far as logic and faith being exclusive of each other, I dare say that is not quite true. God gave us logic, and He gave us faith, and the two work incredibly well hand-in-hand when studying His word. Whenever one comes to a passage of Scripture which is hard to understand, or seems contradictory, this is when we reason in our hearts, "God, I know Your word is truth (faith). And I know there's a reason this passage is here and why it says this.(logic)" Then the Holy Spirit reveals the meaning to us. You need not ignore reason and logic to believe.

"Oh yeah, after 2000 years of scripture, this omnipotent being decides his plan isn't working out so good. So he sends his son to earth, through a human virgin girl, to sacrafice his life, so he can change his plan up a little."

Let me shed some light if I may. Many people think that when Adam took and ate the forbidden fruit, that God said, "Oh no!! I sure didn't see that coming!!" This, however, is not true. God knew that was going to happen. That is why Jesus is referred to as "the Lamb slain from[or, before] the foundation of the world."(Revelation 13:8) This means that before God even made the first atom of what would become planet Earth, He knew mankind would rebel against Him, so He created a perfect sacrifice to reconcile mankind to Himself.

You may say, "So, why did He create man, if man was only going to screw up?" Well, let me put it in human terms. You know that eventually, your car is going to break down on you. So, hopefully, you plan ahead for that day. You continue to drive your car, knowing it's going to break down, right? Now, apply that to God creating man. He created man to have fellowship with Him. He knew man would disobey, but He loved us so much that He sent His Son to suffer and die for our sins(John 3:16), and He knew all this was going to happen before He even made us.(John 17:24)

"Science does not have all the answers and that is why evolution is still categorized as a theory."

Yet, this seems to be one THEORY scientists will, with their dying breath, put forth as being FACT, contradicting every law of scientific investigation.

I hope this clears a few things up. If you want to know more-especially about how to have eternal life-I'd be happy to answer any more questions you may have.

Peace!

[Klash]

Re: Evolution is bunk...

Greetings Klash,

Maybe I can help you out here.


What we call logic is nothing more than what we human beings can understand in our own minds. These minds are very limited. But we do know this: In the same way we see a Pepsi can, and know that somebody made it, it only stands to reason that since we live in a universe that exists, someone must have created it. Agreed?

Furthermore, God gave us not only logic, but also something called "faith". Anything we hear or read about, that we did not actually see, we must believe by faith. All of the science books, all the history books, if we believe what they tell us, it is because we put our faith in the authors. But how do you know that what they are telling you is always the truth? After all, have you actually measured the distance to the sun? Were we there at Custer's Last Stand? Besides, aren't all these books put together by "councils of men", who have faith in what other "councils of men" have written?

Maybe I can help you out here!

Logic is not what we understand, it is a process to understand! Our minds are "limited" by faith and dogma. Dogma is what you think you understand. This world and life is a very beautiful and curious place but religions kill that beauty of life with assumption that life is a test to see where you will spend eternity - in hell or in heaven serving your master.

With intelligence you have the ability to make decisions based on reason, hope, denial, wishes, lepricons, unicorns, self destruction, shooting stars, sons of god, the supernatural, faith or whatever. If and when a situation fails by a decision you made, a logical person reasons that he/she miscalculated a variable. Someone that operates on faith concludes - it wasn't meant to be, it wasn't gods will, karma, my head wasn't facing north when I made the decision or someother other rationalization to protect their irrational belief.

How do you gauge the purity of faith? A muslims faith versus a christians faith for example. They both require faith but Allah or Jesus one will perform ethnic cleansing on the non-believers. Some faith is obviously not as good as others.

As far as comparing science books to the bible, there is a commonality - they were both written by biased men and if the men that wrote "Custers last stand" told me Custer turned water into wine, raised the dead, walked on water and was the son of god, it would make it easy for me to disregard the whole story.

Let me shed some light if I may. Many people think that when Adam took and ate the forbidden fruit, that God said, "Oh no!! I sure didn't see that coming!!" This, however, is not true. God knew that was going to happen. That is why Jesus is referred to as "the Lamb slain from[or, before] the foundation of the world."(Revelation 13:8) This means that before God even made the first atom of what would become planet Earth, He knew mankind would rebel against Him, so He created a perfect sacrifice to reconcile mankind to Himself.

So when one soul disobeyed, this omnipotent being decided to punish billions of souls. Man after the second coming you better hope that one person doesn't fuck up in heaven or you guys might just have to start all over.

You may say, "So, why did He create man, if man was only going to screw up?" Well, let me put it in human terms.

Human terms? How else could you put it?

You know that eventually, your car is going to break down on you. So, hopefully, you plan ahead for that day. You continue to drive your car, knowing it's going to break down, right? Now, apply that to God creating man. He created man to have fellowship with Him. He knew man would disobey, but He loved us so much that He sent His Son to suffer and die for our sins(John 3:16), and He knew all this was going to happen before He even made us.(John 17:24)

So while he was creating souls he created some to experince torture for eternity, just for the hell of it. Nice guy!

Yet, this seems to be one THEORY scientists will, with their dying breath, put forth as being FACT, contradicting every law of scientific investigation.

This is funny! You bash scientist for "contradicting every law of scientific investigation" and your whole philosophy is based around contradicting science.

I hope this clears some things up for you!

[JohnnyB]

Re: Evolution is bunk...

Klash you are confusing faith with fate, faith is only as good as what you put it in, you can have faith that the world is flat (which was the scientific belief at one time) but it wouldn't make it true. While science was saying the world was flat, the Bible said it was round Isaiah 40:22 "It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in." So we have one case of the Bible being right and science being wrong. Science for many years up until the 50's thought the cell was protoplasm but with the invention of a more powerful microscope they discover DNA and RNA, another case that they were wrong.

As far as different religions go, there validity is only are as good as there writings. I like the way you dodged the statement New Creation made in answer to your "council of men" statement. Which is typical of people that want to bash the Bible, once there charges is debunked they bring come up with more misguided arguments, it's usually from some professor that they were indoctrinated by or a group that make charges with no investigation.

Your statement the God created souls for eternal punishment, is the negative view of it. He actually created them to be with Him for eternity, but by their own decision do they suffer punishment. He provided the way for them to be with Him, it's their choice to accept it or reject it, so he's not condemning them they are. But it just show that you are talking about something you haven't investigated, which show your faith or belief is misguided. And you accuse us if that, when you yourself are guilty.

You say our mind are limited by faith and dogma, I'll agree that dogma does limit your mind, that's why yours is limited in understand of the basic principles in the Bible or of the Christian faith, your dogma blinds you.

Your faith is only as good as what you place it in, I place my faith in the Bible as the Word of God. It seems you place you faith in the council of men or your own understanding.

The Bible was written over 1500 year on three different continents by 39 different authors, which most never meet each other, yet it has one unified message.

In archeology it has never been proved wrong, for years people said there was no such person as Pontius Pilate but in the 60's archeology found proof that he existed.

In prophesy it is accurate, one example. The Jews were scatted thought out the world in 70 AD. God promised to bring then back to the land of Israel. They were without a homeland for almost 1900 year, yet they kept their language, culture and religion and remained a race for all that time. Adding to that they are the most prosecuted people in the history of man. ****** wasn't the first to kill Jews it had happened before, yet with all that working against them they were preserved as a race, they could of easily assimilated into the people they were living among but they didn't. Then in 1948 March 14th they were given a homeland as God said he would do for them, not only did He preserved them but fulfilled His promise to them. Now in the history of man no people stayed a race for more them 300 years without a homeland. What council of men did that?

When it come to writings of antiquity, there's a law for allowing them in to court as evidence (you can look it up) not only does the Bible meet those requirements, it far exceeds any other writings, including Homer's Iliad, the writings of Plato or Socrates, yet no one disputes those writings. Why? My guess is because they don't deal with the nature of a human, the Bible makes us deal with what we really are and the not what we think we are by our own standards.

Other religions, while other religions were saying the earth was carried on the back(s) of turtles, elephants, Atlas or Hercules. The Bible said it was held by nothing in space. Job 26:7 "He stretches out the north over empty space; He hangs the earth on nothing" as you can see the Bible was right again, not other religions or beliefs.

JohnnyB