Proviron! - Here's a topic we can debate..

[Juice Authority]

***edited***

[Juice Authority]

Perfect! Here's the type of data I was looking for...that shows the effect of Proviron or lack there of on T-levels at lower dosges. One could conclude from this study that Proviron is only mildly suppressive to hpta recovery at lower dosages (25-50mg's ed). In other words, according to this study, Proviron, if taken post-cycle to prevent estrogen rebound should not hinder recovery!

Int Urol Nephrol. 1978;10(3):251-6. Related Articles, Links


Mesterolone treatment of patients with pathospermia.

Szollosi J, Falkay GY, Sas M.

The response to Mesterolone, in doses of 25 mg/day, was examined in 42 pathospermic patients. Treatment lasted for 100 days. The pronounced response to the Mesterolone treatment was observed in hypozoo- and oligozoospermia with low initial fructose content in the ejaculate. Fructose content attained its normal range after the treatment. During the therapeutic period 11 wives became pregnant. The authors conclude that Mesterolone does not influence plasma FSH, LH and testosterone levels, it has only peripheral effects.

PMID: 689818 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[pigmeat]

Originally posted by Juice Authority
Perfect! Here's the type of data I was looking for...that shows the effect of Proviron or lack there of on T-levels at lower dosges. One could conclude from this study that Proviron is only mildly suppressive to hpta recovery at lower dosages (25-50mg's ed). In other words, according to this study, Proviron, if taken post-cycle to prevent estrogen rebound should not hinder recovery!

Int Urol Nephrol. 1978;10(3):251-6. Related Articles, Links


Mesterolone treatment of patients with pathospermia.

Szollosi J, Falkay GY, Sas M.

The response to Mesterolone, in doses of 25 mg/day, was examined in 42 pathospermic patients. Treatment lasted for 100 days. The pronounced response to the Mesterolone treatment was observed in hypozoo- and oligozoospermia with low initial fructose content in the ejaculate. Fructose content attained its normal range after the treatment. During the therapeutic period 11 wives became pregnant. The authors conclude that Mesterolone does not influence plasma FSH, LH and testosterone levels, it has only peripheral effects.

PMID: 689818 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

That is one of the few studies you will find where there is not an ungodly amount used! Good to see you found something that supports my theory

[Juice Authority]

Posted by Nelson Montana in response to the study I just posted above:

As much as I'm not apt to take the conclusion of one study (or even two or three) as an all out absolute, this does coinside with what my experiences have suggested all along. Proviron is not very inhibitory, making it an excellent conduit from a cycle to going going natural.

Since it also works as an effective anti -e it has several advantages over all other post cycle drugs.


It does not lower FSH (like Clomid)


It does not lower IGF-1 (like nolvadex)


It is not site specific,(like nolva) removing estrogen throughout the body.


It lowers SHBG (which Clomid raises) thereby incresing testosterone.


It is side effect free in the recommended dosages. (i.e. vision disturbances, acne, etc)


It can not lower your e too much (lke A-dex)


SInce it is not an estrogen "blocker" it does not have the possible rebound effect of nolva.


It does not afect mood negitively like Clomid.


It gets you hard as a rock!


It gets you dick hard as a rock!


It really is the best and only logical drug choice.

I predict that within a year, there is going to be a tremendous shift in the post cycle therapy of most steroid users. When the word starts to spread that all they need (assuming cycles aren't totally stupid) is Proviron and some natural herbs and nutrients, everyone is going to wonder why anyone ever took Clomid or Nolvadex.

Okay, now you don't have to read the second chapter of Bottom Line Bodybuilding.

[pigmeat]

i would like to see a study of using it soley post cycle as neilson stated. JA, why dont you be the human guinnea pig ,and let usknow how it works I hate clomid therapy,and am very interested in this.

[Juice Authority]

Originally posted by pigmeat
i would like to see a study of using it soley post cycle as neilson stated. JA, why dont you be the human guinnea pig ,and let usknow how it works I hate clomid therapy,and am very interested in this.

As Nelson's has been saying for a while, the fact that Proviron acts similarly to DHT automatically makes it an anti-e since DHT can not aromatize.

Also, there is a post-cycle formula that's out. It mostly consists of natural supplements but people are claiming excellent results. The formula is called "Post-Cycle" formula (Maca, Chrysin, Milk Thistle, Cndium, etc). Nelson can better explain the ingredients but apparently this concoction has been used successfully in place of clomid without any of the nasty side effects you get from clomid. I plan to take this along with Proviron and a low dose of Nolva and see how it goes.

[superchicken]

only thing is, this study did not actually measure test levels, they concluded that since pregnancies resulted from it, and also since fructose content in ejaculate went to normal range after treatment, that mesterolone did not lower test. thats a guess not a fact. although, i must admit, thats more than likely the truth, but it is not fact. it could very well have lowered the test levels, yet still achived normal fructose and resulted in pregnancies.

Originally posted by Juice Authority


Int Urol Nephrol. 1978;10(3):251-6. Related Articles, Links


Mesterolone treatment of patients with pathospermia.

Szollosi J, Falkay GY, Sas M.

The response to Mesterolone, in doses of 25 mg/day, was examined in 42 pathospermic patients. Treatment lasted for 100 days. The pronounced response to the Mesterolone treatment was observed in hypozoo- and oligozoospermia with low initial fructose content in the ejaculate. Fructose content attained its normal range after the treatment. During the therapeutic period 11 wives became pregnant. The authors conclude that Mesterolone does not influence plasma FSH, LH and testosterone levels, it has only peripheral effects.

PMID: 689818 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[superchicken]

also, for nelson to call proviron the best post cycle med i think is a bit preliminary. using proviron would be very similar to using a low dose of ldex. which will work, but personally, i doubt will work as good. he states that proviron wont lower you estrogen too much, well, first of all, that is dose relative. this means there is a dose of anastrozole which will lower estrogen the same amount as a dose of provrion. diff drugs are commonly used in diff doses, depending on the purpose they are being used.

anyway, the main goal of post cycle therapy is to keep estrogen from binding to the HPTA so that the body is tricked into thinking there is too little testosterone, so in response it will trigger more test to be produced. now if proviron does not lower estrogen as well as anastrozole, well, it wont work as well. i still feel clomid or nolvadex is best for PCT, since in adequete dose, it outright blocks the estrogen from binding to the hpta at all, and will do the best job of fooling the body into thinking there is not enough testosterone.

i have seen studies where anastrozole RAISED natural test levels to over 50% above baseline(and i cant recal which but i also saw clomid or tamoxifen did about the same increase to nat test as well). this is because it/they does a good job of lowering estrogen levels/keeping estro from binding to the hpta, and the body responds by making more lh, and in turn more test.

i have yet to see a study which shows proviron can RAISE nat test, and if so, that it can do it as well as anastrozole, clomid, or tamoxifen. id love to see one.

[Juice Authority]

Originally posted by superchicken
only thing is, this study did not actually measure test levels, they concluded that since pregnancies resulted from it, and also since fructose content in ejaculate went to normal range after treatment, that mesterolone did not lower test. thats a guess not a fact. although, i must admit, thats more than likely the truth, but it is not fact. it could very well have lowered the test levels, yet still achived normal fructose and resulted in pregnancies.

I see what you're saying and no they didn't actually measure T-levels but it is safe to conclude that Proviron had little to no effect on test levels especially since the test subjects had low initial fructose content in the ejaculate prior to the treatment.

[superchicken]

yes i agree.

[Juice Authority]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by superchicken
also, for nelson to call proviron the best post cycle med i think is a bit preliminary. using proviron would be very similar to using a low dose of ldex. which will work, but personally, i doubt will work as good. he states that proviron wont lower you estrogen too much, well, first of all, that is dose relative. this means there is a dose of anastrozole which will lower estrogen the same amount as a dose of provrion. diff drugs are commonly used in diff doses, depending on the purpose they are being used.

anyway, the main goal of post cycle therapy is to keep estrogen from binding to the HPTA so that the body is tricked into thinking there is too little testosterone, so in response it will trigger more test to be produced. now if proviron does not lower estrogen as well as anastrozole, well, it wont work as well. i still feel clomid or nolvadex is best for PCT, since in adequete dose, it outright blocks the estrogen from binding to the hpta at all, and will do the best job of fooling the body into thinking there is not enough testosterone.

i have seen studies where anastrozole RAISED natural test levels to over 50% above baseline(and i cant recal which but i also saw clomid or tamoxifen did about the same increase to nat test as well). this is because it/they does a good job of lowering estrogen levels/keeping estro from binding to the hpta, and the body responds by making more lh, and in turn more test.

i have yet to see a study which shows proviron can RAISE nat test, and if so, that it can do it as well as anastrozole, clomid, or tamoxifen. id love to see one. [/QU OTE]

There's always a trade-off. Where anastrozole has shown to raise baseline test levels post-cycle it has also conclusively been shown to skew one's lipid profile completely out of wack. Nolva, on the hand, improves lipid profiles.

My position is that Nolva, Proviron and this new post-cycle concoction consisting of natural ingredients might well very be the way to go. The main goal of post cycle therapy is to keep estrogen from binding to the HPTA and Nolva will accomplish that without further messing up your lipid profiles, which are screwed up to begin with from the cycle you finished.

[pigmeat]

post up this concoction ! Very interesting!

[superchicken]

yeah i think clomid or nolva are the most effective. sounds like a proviron nolva combo would work excellent and have little unwanted sides, i bet this becomes popular. it would prob have the most desirable effects and be very effective.

i dont actually advocate ldex for PCT, i was just using it to demonstrate how it is more powerful at reducing estrogen than proviron, and how that reducing estrogen is a good thing for PCT effectiveness, because it raises test levels, and thats what PCT is all about.

i bet proviron will hurt lipid profiles too though, if it indeed lowers estrogen. and again this is dose relative. at 25-50mg ed, it wont hurt them nearly as much as anastrozole at .5-1mg ed, but thats just a common dose, thats not a comparable dose when talking about lowering estorgen levels.

[Juice Authority]

I asked Nelson to chime in but he does't want this to turn into a flame war and neither do I. We'll see what he does.

[superchicken]

you know, i bet exemestane would be a very good choice for PCT.....but we do need more studies on it. but its extremely effective at keeping estro from binding, yet wont hurt lipid profiles, and no rebound....hmmmm...