Proviron! - Here's a topic we can debate..

[Juice Authority]

Originally posted by superchicken
yeah i think clomid or nolva are the most effective. sounds like a proviron nolva combo would work excellent and have little unwanted sides, i bet this becomes popular. it would prob have the most desirable effects and be very effective.

i dont actually advocate ldex for PCT, i was just using it to demonstrate how it is more powerful at reducing estrogen than proviron, and how that reducing estrogen is a good thing for PCT effectiveness, because it raises test levels, and thats what PCT is all about.

i bet proviron will hurt lipid profiles too though, if it indeed lowers estrogen. and again this is dose relative. at 25-50mg ed, it wont hurt them nearly as much as anastrozole at .5-1mg ed, but thats just a common dose, thats not a comparable dose when talking about lowering estorgen levels.

I'll also be taking this to help with the shewed lipid profile post-cycle...

Guggulsterones: 180mg/day
Policosanol: 40mg/day
Green Tea(45% ECGCG): 1g/day
Tocotreniols: 1g/day(A way more potent form of Vitamin E)
Garlic(Kyolic): 1g/day
(Novaldex: 20mg/day)

[superchicken]

im thinking exemestane, nolva, and proviron would be an awesome PCT. exemestane is unmateched at keeping estro from binding, the nolva will take care of that last 3-5% of estro exem doesnt get, and it will help lipids, and the proviron, shoudl help improve hardness, and mood since your androgen levels are still somewhat elevated. oooooh i cant wait anyway lets not get off topic here. exemestane can be another thread later.

[superchicken]

yeah tell nelson that anyone who flames, thier post will be deleted. this thread can help us all.

[Juice Authority]

Originally posted by superchicken
im thinking exemestane, nolva, and proviron would be an awesome PCT. exemestane is unmateched at keeping estro from binding, the nolva will take care of that last 3-5% of estro exem doesnt get, and it will help lipids, and the proviron, shoudl help improve hardness, and mood since your androgen levels are still somewhat elevated. oooooh i cant wait anyway lets not get off topic here. exemestane can be another thread later.

Well, unintentionally I think we've collectively come up with a post-cycle formula that might actually work. Let's recap..

To help with Lipid Profile:

Guggulsterones: 180mg/day
Policosanol: 40mg/day
Green Tea(45% ECGCG): 1g/day
Tocotreniols: 1g/day(A way more potent form of Vitamin E)
Garlic(Kyolic): 1g/day
(Novaldex: 20mg/day) - also to keep estrogen from binding to the HPTA

Provirion - 25-50mg's ED

- Acts like an anti-e since it's a DHT and doesn't aromatize
- To help keep estrogen levels in check
- To help erectile dysfunction
- It does not lower FSH (like Clomid)
- It does not lower IGF-1
- It is not site specific, removing estrogen throughout the body
- It lowers SHBG (which Clomid raises) thereby incresing testosterone
- It is side effect free in the recommended dosages. (i.e. vision disturbances, acne, etc) - unlike clomid
It can not lower your e too much (like A-dex does)
- since it is not an estrogen "blocker" it does not have the possible rebound effect of nolva.
- It does not afect mood negitively like Clomid.
- It gets you hard as a rock!
- It gets you dick hard as a rock!

Nelson's post cycle formula - (Maca, Chrysin, Milk Thistle, Cndium, etc).

- To help restore hpta
- Nelson - ?

exemestane - SC?

[pigmeat]

hopefully we can get neilson in here to enlighten us on his pct formula!

[Juice Authority]

Originally posted by pigmeat
hopefully we can get neilson in here to enlighten us on his pct formula!

I'll get him over here. Here's what's been said so far about his PCT formula:

- "Post-Cycle" also has milk thistle and r-ala and lecithin for you liver, plus maca and epimedium for libido and cndium for erectile function so there's lots of stuff beyond the estrogen managment you can use. It also has 15 mgs of zinc so you wont need ZMA. Too much zinc is worse than too little.

- Post-Cycle has stuff to lower e, boost libido, improve erectile strength, and detoxify the liver. Most of the ingredients are things a lot of members already use, but it's in one shot.

http://www.proteinfactory.com/in_news.shtml

- POST-CYCLE - An All-In-One formula that combines anti-estrogens with liver detoxifiers while boosting libido! The perfect supplement for anyone serious about packing on more muscle and losing fat, but it's a must for the hardcore bodybuilder. It's what you should be on, when you're "off."

http://www.proteinfactory.com/in_news.shtml

POST-CYCLE - We've succeeded where so many other supplement companies have failed! POST-CYCLE covers all the bases. Where else are you going to find an anti-estrogen along with liver protectants and detoxifiers along with ingredients to boost libido and improve erectile function! And on top of it all, POST-CYCLE increases Nitric Oixde so you get vicious pumps in the gym. You'd have to spend three times as much for just one or two of these ingredients, but with POST-CYCLE, you get it all, for less!

Again, we avoided some typical "window dressing" ingredients in favor of the most effective compounds available. When it came to anti-estrogens we passed on DIM and I3C because these compounds are mild estrogens which MAY inhibit further estrogens from attaching to receptors, OR, (and this is what they never tell you) they may have an estrogenic effect on their own! No way. We also passed on some of the new androstenetrione antiestrogens simply for the fact that no research has been conducted on them. There's no way of knowing if these compounds have a "rebound" effect, causing an increase in estrogen once you stop using it. That's why we went with Calcium D-Glucarate in combination with 5, 7-dihydroxyflavone and added the Bioperine to increase its absorption. This allows for the safe, proven removal of excess estrogens for a perfect hormonal balance.

And just as a kicker, we put in a powerful dose of MACA so you really feel a surge. Not to mention the mega-dose of our high potency Candium will give you stamina like you've never experienced before! POST-CYCLE should be a part of every serious bodybuilders supplement regime. Used in a stack with UNLEASHED and wow! This stuff kicks ass!

[Juice Authority]

Here's some more info with a list of the ingredients and references:

http://www.proteinfactory.com/articles.htm

POST - CYCLE

A MUST For Those Who Indulge


As everyone knows, the use of anabolics carries certain health risks. And once you come off, the side effects are even worse. A suppressed HPTA. Elevated liver enzymes. Lowered libido. Increased estrogen. These things will not only compromise your health but they'll slow down recuperation. In the meantime, you'll lose precious muscle! Don't let it happen.

Now, you can protect yourself from many of these detrimental effects and restore your natural vital functions faster than ever before with new "POST - CYCLE."

POST-CYCLE is specifically designed with a unique combination of ingredients which provide multifaceted benefits for the anabolic user.

First, we've included not one, not two, but FIVE different ingredients to help guard, clean and detoxify the liver.

Milk Thistle:80%Silymarin 100mgs

N-Acetyl Cysteine: 50 mgs

Pirkoliv: (Ayurvedic herb) 100mgs

r-ALA: 10 mgs

Lecithin (containing Phosphatidyl Choline) 250mgs


The next step was to add Estrogen ELIMINATORS.

This is important. Anything that blocks the production of estrogen only works as long as you take the product. As soon as you stop, the estrogen comes back twofold! The key is to REMOVE excess estrones, and the only ingredients we've found to do that are here! But the dosages must be correct! Too much or too little can throw your hormonal balance way off. POST-CYCLE contains the following aromatase inhibitors:

Calcium D-Glucarate: 25 mgs, 5,7-dihydroxyflavone: 500 mgs Piperine:5mgs

In a case study using the blood work as the gauge, this combination of ingredients proved to lower estrodiol levels over 20%! (Blood tests don't lie)

AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST...

One of the regrettable downfalls of steroid use is the havoc it plays on your libido. This can lead to a multitude of depressing and embarrassing episodes for a long time afterward. BUT NOT ANYMORE!

POST-CYCLE contains special exotic herbs that have a "Viagra-Like" effect. You'll never have to worry about your performance again! Even natural athletes can take advantage of the pro-sexual benefits of POST-CYCLE since every ingredient is designed to promote health and well being. (Note: When taken with "UNLEASHED" the effects are even more dramatic.)

One of the ingredients of POST CYCLE is a newly discovered compound called Cnidium Monnieri. (50mgs) This amazing substance increases NO (Nitric Oxide) just like Viagra does! Two capsules twenty minutes before "activity" and we guarantee you won't be "let down."


Also included in POST-CYCLE is 500mgs of high potency MACA, and 250 mgs of Epimedium to help kick start your sex drive. 15mgs of Zinc Aspartate (for both estrogen maintenance and testosterone production) as well as 250mgs of L-Arginine are also added to enhance Nitric Oxide production, supress estrogen and highten testosterone.

THE ONE AND ONLY!

We know once other supplement companies get a hold of this formula they're going to try their damnedest to copy it. But don't be fooled by wannabe imitators. Go with the world's first and most effective post-cycle supplement ever formulated.


POST-CYCLE -- It's What You Should Be On, When You're "Off."





References:

Journal of Steroid BiochemicalMolecular Biology, 1993, Vol. 46, No. 3

Demling, RH. Comparison of the Anabolic Effects and Complications of Human Growth Hormone and the Testosterone Analog, Oxandrolone, after Severe Burn Injury. Burns 1999: 25, 215.

Journal of Immunological Reviews, Thymic Aging and T Cell Regeneration, 1997

Schwartz E, et al. Estrogenic Antagonism of Metabolic Effects of Administered Growth Hormone, J Clin Endocrinol 1969; 29:1176

The Guide To Natural Medicines, Michael Murray ND, Bantam Books, 2002.

Study of Human Sexuality, University of California, 1986.

Charpenet G. et al. Stress-Induced Testicular Hyposensitivity to Gonadotropin in Rats. Role of the Pituitary Gland. Biol Reprod 1982; 27:616

Copinschi G, Van Cauter E. Effects of Aging on Modulation of Hormonal Secretions by Sleep and Circadian Rhythmicity. Horm Res 1995; 43:20


Research Int J Clin Pharmacol BioPharm, 1976, October; 14 (3)

[Governor]

Originally posted by teekahty
I know why on the exemestane . I am interested in nelson's PCT . This is impressive . I do not think I have seen a better PCT ever. we still need to discuss duration , and timing however!

agreed, timing and duratinon needs to be discussed.


We should make another thread on aromasin, Possibly even in conjuction with this one.....


How is proviron with the lipids??? Any BP increase??

[Nelson Montana]

Yo!

The think Juice covered the info pretty well since the promo literature pretty much explains it. When designing the formula I wanted to add avenasativacosides for the SHBG lowering effect, but it got to the point where you'd need to take 6 horse pills for one serving. So we put together a seperate "free T" formula which can be used by anyone and left Post-Cycle more for its intended purpose.

The whole thing stems from the concept that people tend to go overboard with anti-e's, which in itself causes a host of problems (increased LDL, loss of libido, and lesser gains). Also, a lot of people do not respond well to Clomid. The reason for this is thus far speculative but what's interesting is that it has a very varied effect. I some, it does the trick, while in others, it seems to INCREASE estrogenic side effects. This could be due to Clomid being a mild esrogen, but that's another topic in itself.

Also, I feel most anti-e's can be lowered or even avoided by taking the proper precautions during the cycle. Look at the guys from the 60's and early 70's. Nobody had gyno! And nobody used anti e's -- cause they werent around yet. (At least not as bodybuilding aids).

As previously mentioned, Proviron is an excellent anti -e -- even thogh it wasn't designed for that purpose, hence the lack of studies on it as an anti e.

PF.coms "Post-Cycle" would be enough (along with some "Unleashed" which wouldn't hurt) for most light/short cycles and a combination of low dose proviron along with it should be enough for most anyone except for the ultra gyno prone.

I do believe the early symptoms of
gyno should be something that you stay aware of and not ust indiscriminantly take anti e's. as a supposed safe guard. Using Clomid or Nolvadex (which are very similar) isn't really "playing it safe" as once thought. They're another drug with their own side effects. Planing your cycle the right way, keeping duration and dosages sane, avoiding the harshest compounds, and using the right supps along with Proviron is the safest, most effective method for staying healthy, recovering quickly and avoiding gyno.

[Small]

Can someone please, explaine to me, if Proviron is anti-estrogen, why no doctor in a world prescribe it for that purpose?

[Small]

Originally posted by Juice Authority
Well, small is wrong. Actually he's dead wrong and that is probably some of the worst advice one can give. A Proviron bridge? Please explain how that works to reduce estrogen rebound after PCT. Once the AAS compound has cleared the body there is no estrogen rebound that takes place so after you're through with post-cycle therapy taking proviron is very counter-productive. I wonder if Small can produce any evidence whatsoever that validates this "proviron bridge". I'll bet $50,000 to your $1 says he can't.

I never recomended Proviron as "bridge", I don't belive in "bridge"
I recomended Proviron as part of post cycle threatment, and it has nothing to do with its suppose anti-estrogenic properties, BUT with its androgenic properties, to keep libido up and CNS from falling into depresion. And, because, as many studies show Proviron has none or very little effect on HPTA it would and DOES work very well right at the end of post cycle therapy.

[Nelson Montana]

Originally posted by Small
Can someone please, explaine to me, if Proviron is anti-estrogen, why no doctor in a world prescribe it for that purpose?

What would they prescribe it for? Nolva works as a site specific designed to combat tumors in the breast. Even clomid is pescribed as a fertility drug in women, not an anti e for me. Normally men don't need anti e's and isn't exactly at the top of the list of medical concerns.

[Juice Authority]

Originally posted by Small
I never recomended Proviron as "bridge", I don't belive in "bridge"
I recomended Proviron as part of post cycle threatment, and it has nothing to do with its suppose anti-estrogenic properties, BUT with its androgenic properties, to keep libido up and CNS from falling into depresion. And, because, as many studies show Proviron has none or very little effect on HPTA it would and DOES work very well right at the end of post cycle therapy.

Whoa, whoa, whoa...you came into this discussion late in the game. If you go back through the thread you'll notice I've pretty much proved my own statement wrong with the relevant studies I posted that clearly shows Proviron is not suppressive to the hpta.

[Juice Authority]

Originally posted by Governor
agreed, timing and duratinon needs to be discussed.


We should make another thread on aromasin, Possibly even in conjuction with this one.....


How is proviron with the lipids??? Any BP increase??

Proviron is a DHT and can increase the blood pressure.

[Juice Authority]

Another thing to note about Proviron:

Proviron decreases the total water build-up of the body giving the appearance of muscle hardness. This is most likely due to its reduction in circulating estrogen or perhaps due to the downregulating of the estrogen receptor in muscle tissue.