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First off, that was an excerpt from Fonz's D-bol bridge theory that I was sharing. Secondly, I've never done a d-bol bridge nor do I believe in its efficacy. I feel, based on the research I've done, that the d-bol bridge is just an extended cycle or a taper and suppressive to the hpta. I was relaying information on that thread.
Originally posted by stonecold54 pigmeat: JA is taking a position for positions sake. he is not saying he believes one way or another. in a round about way he is trying to get people to throw evidence out for either postition so we can all make a more educated use of proviron. correct me if I am wrong JA
You are absolutely right on the money. The whole intent of this thread was to spark an intelligent, "factual" discussion. It's really not about who's right and who's wrong since there is little scientific data available that support either side. What I can say with a certain degree of accuracy is that Proviron, if taken post-cycle, can be suppressive to hpta recovery.
Ahh, I found some more speculative information on proviron that might prove useful to this discussion...
Mesterolone (Proviron)
Proviron is a synthetic, orally effective androgen which does not have any anabolic characteristics. Proviron is used in school medicine to ease or cure disturbances eaused by a deficiency of male sex hormones. Many athletes, for this reason, often use Proviron at the end of a steroid treatment in order to increase the reduced testosterone production. This, however is not a good idea since Proviron has no effect on the body's own testosterone production but-as mentioned in the beginning-only reduces or completely eliminates the dysfunctions caused by the testosterone deficiency. These are in particular impotence which is mostly caused by an androgen deficiency that can occur after the discontinuance of steroids, and infertility which manifests itself in a reduced sperm count and a reduced sperm quality. Proviron is therefore taken during a steroid administration or after discontinuing the use of the steroids, to eliminate a possible impotency or a reduced sexual interest. This, however does not contribute to the maintainance of strength and muscle mass after the treatment. There are other better suited compounds for this (see HCG and Clomid). For this reason Proviron is unfortunately cunsidered by many to be a useless and unnecessary compound.
You should be aware that Proviron is also an estrogen antagonist which prevents the aromatization of steroids. Unlike the antiestrogen Nolvadex which only blocks the estrogen receptors (see Nolvadex) Proviron already prevents the aromatizing of steroids. Therefore gynecomastia and increased water retention are successfully blocked. Since Proviron strongly suppresses the forming of estrogens no rebound effect occurs after discontinuation of use of the compound as is the case with, for example, Nolvadex where an aromatization of the steroids is not prevented. One can say that Nolvadex cures the problem of aromatization at its root while Nolvadex simply cures the symptoms. For this reason male athletes should prefer Proviron to Nolvadex. With Proviron the athlete obtains more muscle hardness since the androgen level is increased and the estrogen concentration remains low. This, in particular, is noted positively during the preparation for a competition when used in combination with a diet. Female athletes who naturally have a higher estrogen level often supplement their steroid intake with Proviron resulting in an increased muscle hardness. In the past it was common for bodybuilders to take a daily dose of one 25 mg tablet over several weeks, sometimes even months, in order to appear hard all year round. This was especially important for athletes appearances at guest performances, seminars and photo sessions. Today Clenbuterol is usually taken over the entire year since possible virilization symptoms cannot occur which is not yet the case with Proviron. Since Proviron is very effective male athletes usually need only 50 mg/day which means that the athlete usually takes one 25 mg tablet in the morning and another 25 mg tablet in the evening. In some cases one 25 mg tablet per day is sufficient. When combining Proviron with Nolvadex (50 mg Proviron/day and 20 mg Nolvadex/day) this will lead to an almost complete suppression of estrogen.
The side effects of Proviron in men are low at a dosage of 2-3 tablets/day so that Proviron, taken for example in combination with a steroid cycle, can be used comparatively without risk over several weeks. Since Proviron is well-tolerated by the liver liver dysfunctions do not occur in the given dosages. For athletes who are used to acting under the motto "more is better" the intake of Proviron could have a paradoxical effect. The most common side effect of Proviron-or in this case, secondary symptom- is in part a distinct sexual overstimulation and in some cases continuous penis erection. Since this condition can be painful and lead to possible damages, a lower dosage or discontinuing the compound are the only sensible solutions. Female athletes should use Proviron with caution since possible androgenic side effects cannot be excluded. Women who want to give Proviron a try should not take more than one 25 mg tablet per day. Higher dosages and periods of intake of more than four weeks considerably increase the risk of virilization symptoms. Female athletes who have no difficulties with Proviron obtain good results with 25 mg Proviron/day and 20 mg Nolvadex/day and, in combination with a diet, report an accelerated fat breakdown and continuously harder muscles.
i was going to post that read, but couldnt find it. Brings up some good points. It did state however that it does prevent the nolva rebound which gives lots of people fits post cycle. Thats why i run it the way i do. may not be the best scientific way , but it has kept me from growing tittiespost cycle
Originally posted by pigmeat i was going to post that read, but couldnt find it. Brings up some good points. It did state however that it does prevent the nolva rebound which gives lots of people fits post cycle. Thats why i run it the way i do. may not be the best scientific way , but it has kept me from growing tittiespost cycle
Well, that's what's been speculated but it remains to be clinically proven. It's purely hypothetical at this point.
Int J Gynaecol Obstet 1988 Feb;26(1):121-8 Related Articles, Links
The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men.
Varma TR, Patel RH.
Department of Obstetrics & Gynaecology, St. George's Hospital Medical School London, U.K.
Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml) were treated with mesterolone (100-150 mg/day) for 12 months. Seminal analysis were assayed 3 times and serum follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH) and plasma testosterone were assayed once before treatment and repeated at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months after the initiation of treatment. One hundred ten patients (44%) had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients (34%) had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone. One hundred seventy-five patients (70%) had moderate oligospermia (count 5 to less than 20 million/ml) and 75 patients (30%) had severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million/ml). Seventy-five moderately oligospermic patients showed significant improvement in the sperm density, total sperm count and motility following mesterolone therapy whereas only 12% showed improvement in the severe oligospermic group. Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated. There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function. One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9 of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy. Mesterolone was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging between 5 and 20 million/ml. Those with severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy.
Originally posted by superchicken Int J Gynaecol Obstet 1988 Feb;26(1):121-8 Related Articles, Links
The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men.
Varma TR, Patel RH.
Department of Obstetrics & Gynaecology, St. George's Hospital Medical School London, U.K.
Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml) were treated with mesterolone (100-150 mg/day) for 12 months. Seminal analysis were assayed 3 times and serum follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH) and plasma testosterone were assayed once before treatment and repeated at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months after the initiation of treatment. One hundred ten patients (44%) had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients (34%) had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone. One hundred seventy-five patients (70%) had moderate oligospermia (count 5 to less than 20 million/ml) and 75 patients (30%) had severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million/ml). Seventy-five moderately oligospermic patients showed significant improvement in the sperm density, total sperm count and motility following mesterolone therapy whereas only 12% showed improvement in the severe oligospermic group. Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated. There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function. One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9 of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy. Mesterolone was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging between 5 and 20 million/ml. Those with severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy.
PMID: 2892728 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
That's nice. What about this one...
Methods Find Exp Clin Pharmacol. 1984 Jun;6(6):331-7. Related Articles, Links
The effects of mesterolone, a male sex hormone in depressed patients (a double blind controlled study).
Itil TM, Michael ST, Shapiro DM, Itil KZ.
Based on computer EEG (CEEG) profiles, in high doses, antidepressant properties of mesterolone, a synthetic androgen, were predicted. In a double-blind placebo controlled study, the clinical effects of 300-450 mg daily mesterolone were investigated in 52 relatively young (age range 26-53 years, mean 42.7 years) male depressed outpatients. During 6 weeks of mesterolone treatment, there was a significant improvement of depressive symptomatology. However, since an improvement was also established during the placebo treatment, no statistically appreciable difference in the therapeutic effects of mesterolone was established compared to placebo. Mesterolone treatment significantly decreased both plasma testosterone and protein bound testosterone levels. Patients with high testosterone levels prior to treatment seem to have had more benefit from mesterolone treatment than patients with low testosterone levels. The degree of improvement weakly correlated to the decrease of testosterone levels during mesterolone treatment.
Arch Dermatol Res. 1981;270(3):333-40. Related Articles, Links
[Effects of long-term use of mesterolone on different urine metabolites in andrological patients (author's transl)]
[Article in German]
Schramm P, Benes P, Morsches B.
We studied whether long-term use of mesterolone (12 weeks and longer) changed the pattern of steroid metabolites in urine from male subjects. We noticed an increase in dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) levels from 211-4 +/- 130.5 ug/die to 9943.8 +/- 6564.7 ug/die in the urine of all subjects tested. This increase was significant. After mesterolone administration was discontinued, DHEA levels decreased to their initial value. DHEA levels showed the smallest increase in those subjects having high plasma FSH levels. Perhaps the delta 4 pathway of testosterone synthesis may be preferred in these three subjects. We suppose that mesterolone has a blocking effect on the delta 5 pathway of testosterone synthesis. DHEA from the DHEA-pool can be used for testosterone synthesis and mesterolone seems to block some enzymes in the synthetic pathway. We were not able to detect a decrease in plasma testosterone levels during mesterolone use because of technical problems. Moreover, our patients told us that they felt ill after discontinuing mesterolone use; it may be possible that there is a psychotropic DHEA-effect during mesterolone use.
just wanted to point out that this study, which showed that proviron suppressed the hpta, used 300-450mg of proviron per day. thats a TON.
this may be out of context of the thread, but maybe the proviron is not suppressive at lower doses, because it binds all/mostly to shbg. but at higher doses, maybe all the shbg is already bound, and the the excess unbound prov can affect other things? just a thought.......
Originally posted by Juice Authority That's nice. What about this one...
Methods Find Exp Clin Pharmacol. 1984 Jun;6(6):331-7. Related Articles, Links
The effects of mesterolone, a male sex hormone in depressed patients (a double blind controlled study).
Itil TM, Michael ST, Shapiro DM, Itil KZ.
Based on computer EEG (CEEG) profiles, in high doses, antidepressant properties of mesterolone, a synthetic androgen, were predicted. In a double-blind placebo controlled study, the clinical effects of 300-450 mg daily mesterolone were investigated in 52 relatively young (age range 26-53 years, mean 42.7 years) male depressed outpatients. During 6 weeks of mesterolone treatment, there was a significant improvement of depressive symptomatology. However, since an improvement was also established during the placebo treatment, no statistically appreciable difference in the therapeutic effects of mesterolone was established compared to placebo. Mesterolone treatment significantly decreased both plasma testosterone and protein bound testosterone levels. Patients with high testosterone levels prior to treatment seem to have had more benefit from mesterolone treatment than patients with low testosterone levels. The degree of improvement weakly correlated to the decrease of testosterone levels during mesterolone treatment.
Originally posted by superchicken just wanted to point out that this study, which showed that proviron suppressed the hpta, used 300-450mg of proviron per day. thats a TON.
this may be out of context of the thread, but maybe the proviron is not suppressive at lower doses, because it binds all/mostly to shbg. but at higher doses, maybe all the shbg is already bound, and the the excess unbound prov can affect other things? just a thought.......
Agreed. Could be. Not really sure. I'm still looking for studies where the test subjects were given proviron only at lower dosages. My feeling is that it would still be slightly suppressive to both plasma and protein bound testosterone levels, which would indicate that it does in fact hinder recovery if taken post-cycle.
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