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3sweet, I applaud you for challenging the establishment
I did the 6 meal mentality for years. There is nothing wrong with it if a person wants to, but it is also acceptable to fit your meals to your lifestyle without any detremental effects to your goals.
We could search all day and each find studies to support our arguements.
This is for non-insulin dependant diabetics however the same insulin spike patterns hold true for non-diabetics too.
This took all of 30 seconds to find and I'm sure if I actually wanted to I'd find more studies backing up your claim and mine as well.
For nearly every scientific study printed there wil be some other university or medical research group that will find and opposing view.
Your post says it's better for muscle gains and while there were not significant fat gains still a tendency to gain more fat as well. Are we talking about a bulking diet now?? Because I thought the topic was still losing fat while gaining muscle/ There were no significant differences in change in fat mass (FM) between the groups, but a tendency towards a greater gain in the three meal group, 7.33%
Metabolic advantages of spreading the nutrient load: effects of increased meal frequency in non-insulin-dependent diabetes
DJ Jenkins, A Ocana, AL Jenkins, TM Wolever, V Vuksan, L Katzman, M Hollands, G Greenberg, P Corey and R Patten
Department of Nutritional Sciences and Preventive Medicine, Faculty of Medicine, St Michael's Hospital, Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
The acute effect of increasing meal frequency as a model of slow absorption was studied for 1 d in 11 patients with non-insulin- dependent diabetes. On 1 d they took 13 snacks (the nibbling diet) and on another day the same diet was taken as three meals and one snack (the three-meal diet). The nibbling diet reduced mean blood glucose, serum insulin, and C peptide concentrations over the 9.5 h of observation and 24-h urinary C peptide output by 12.7 +/- 3.7% (mean +/- SE) (P = 0.0062), 20.1 +/- 5.8% (P = 0.0108), 9.2 +/- 2.6% (P = 0.0073), and 20.37 +/- 8.12% (P = 0.039), respectively, compared with the three-meal diet. Serum triglyceride concentrations were lower by 8.5 +/- 3.2% (P = 0.037). Despite lower insulin concentrations on the nibbling diet, the concentrations of free fatty acids, 3- hydroxybutyrate, and the insulin-sensitive branched-chain amino acids responded similarly on both treatments. Metabolic benefits seen with increased meal frequency may explain the success of similar agents that prolong absorption, including fiber and enzyme inhibitors.
One would think that the reduced blood glucose, etc. be more optimal for a fat loss stage.
All the rhetoric being said I think we actually do AGREE on the three meals being better for gaining more muscle, even if it brings a bit of fat with it.
But again that is not the topic of the orginal discussion is it?
I did the 6 meal mentality for years. There is nothing wrong with it if a person wants to, but it is also acceptable to fit your meals to your lifestyle without any detremental effects to your goals.
So what is YOUR philosphy with out having to pull a scientific statement that really has no real world use. As stated you can pull studies from both sides of the fence.....
As I asked earlier are you saying eating one meal a day of say 3000 cals the same as eatin 4/5 meals?
Thomas Jefferson - "When the government fears the people there is liberty; when the people fear the government there is tyranny."
I must say this is one of the better post I have read in some time- Sal and 3sweeties- I applaud both of you!!! Sal- I will have to discuss why I didn't read this at the other place-LOL
And just for the record- I firmly believe you can add muscle and loose fat at the same time- not c=saying massive amounts, but add non the less
So what is YOUR philosphy with out having to pull a scientific statement that really has no real world use. As stated you can pull studies from both sides of the fence.....
As I asked earlier are you saying eating one meal a day of say 3000 cals the same as eatin 4/5 meals?
I don't know if my philosphy really matters, I just think it is important to see if there is any facts to support an opinion. There is just so much fitness BS out there it is necessary to be a bit discerning. Now my philosphy in a nutshell. Pre and post workout nutrition is important, sufficient amounts of protien 1-1.5gper lb, efas, and adjust calories and macros to support your goals whether it be maintainance, bulk, or fatloss. How many meals one wants to divide their calories in is personal preference. I prefer 3-4 depending if it is a workout or non workout day. Oh yeah, I will eat carbs right before bed if my meal plan for the day is set up that way.
This is a fascinating thread......my diet is an area I am struggling with. My trainer is constantly on me about what I eat. I dont like to eat. He tells me I have to. To add muscle mass, I have to have the nutrition. He told me not to get on a scale for the first 6 weeks of our training. Talk about hard for someone addicted to the numbers. He told me protein in the morning, protein and carbs at noon and protein and fresh veggies at night. As for snacking, he suggested carrots and cukes and such. I have to force myself to eat. Question - is ranch dressing bad to add to a diet? I try to keep my calorie intake under 1200 a day. And can a protein shake or bar replace a meal? I am always on the go and the bars arent that bad.
Incorrect. I have done it and I know many others that have while going natty AFTER have lifted for years and/or cycling.
If you are at a caloric deficit and losing fat AND gaining muscle then you were not optimally trained or your diet was a mess before you started and that makes you fall into the first category I posted above.
Think about how hard it is just to maintain additional muscle mass. Your body considers it a liability and we try to trick our bodies through changing our routines, diet, training intensity...
If you can be at a caloric deficit, gain mass and lose fat then you would be able to diet until the desired leaness is achieved and add some muscle weight. Then go to maintainance calories which will allow you to even gain muscle mass at a faster rate because of the additional calories and only after several years of training you would be a freak of nature and NEVER need AAS.
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -Thomas Jefferson
I don't know if my philosphy really matters, I just think it is important to see if there is any facts to support an opinion. There is just so much fitness BS out there it is necessary to be a bit discerning. Now my philosphy in a nutshell. Pre and post workout nutrition is important, sufficient amounts of protien 1-1.5gper lb, efas, and adjust calories and macros to support your goals whether it be maintainance, bulk, or fatloss. How many meals one wants to divide their calories in is personal preference. I prefer 3-4 depending if it is a workout or non workout day. Oh yeah, I will eat carbs right before bed if my meal plan for the day is set up that way.
That's good solid way of thinking.
You all may think 3sweeties and I are in disagreement based on the dialouge we have here - that is not necessarily the case. I know I've found some interesting veiw points that I may actually try later. I won't consider anything in relation to how things affect the body as fact for the simple reason that we're all different and differnt things work for different people.
But as the comment above and below (LOL) show it is really what it all comes down to! Finding information to back up said opinions and making the best judgement for yourself based on that information. "I just think it is important to see if there is any facts to support an opinion. There is just so much fitness BS out there it is necessary to be a bit discerning."
I think we all agree it's best to have a discussion and try to sort out the mass of information and find out what works best for our own individual bodies.
I think you can all rely on 3sweeties and i to continue to do this.
We may just have differing opinions but it doesn't mean either of them is wrong. We just feel strongly about those opinions.
That being the case something may work for a majority of people in a study but that doesn't prove it as fact - you own body may totally reject such training or nutrition plan based on your specifc genetic makeup.
Some will find their bodies react differently than the test subjects in the studies and articles presented - and that's OK. It doesn't mean you're wrong.
What we as people always looking to betterment have to understand is that our bodies are unique.
Each genetic make up is our own and what may work for some and can be generalized in a study does not necessarily work for everyone.
The sooner we all realize this the sooner was can look at the differnt philosophies with an open mind and think outside the box.
I know for one the article 3sweeties posted has some damn good information in it.
So that is where we are left.
As documented as all the studies may be - the human body will always throw you a curve when it wants to.
So there is no right or wrong - use this information that is presented, try it and if it works great!
If it doesn't - that doesn't mean it's false - it just means it doesn't work for you and your body so try something else.
This is a fascinating thread......my diet is an area I am struggling with. My trainer is constantly on me about what I eat. I dont like to eat. He tells me I have to. To add muscle mass, I have to have the nutrition. He told me not to get on a scale for the first 6 weeks of our training. Talk about hard for someone addicted to the numbers. He told me protein in the morning, protein and carbs at noon and protein and fresh veggies at night. As for snacking, he suggested carrots and cukes and such. I have to force myself to eat. Question - is ranch dressing bad to add to a diet? I try to keep my calorie intake under 1200 a day. And can a protein shake or bar replace a meal? I am always on the go and the bars arent that bad.
I don't know how you are going to put on any muscle mass with 1200 calorie day. You should at least up the calories on your weight training days.
Don't forget to include good fats in your diet such as almonds, oilive oil, avocados, peanut butter, etc. they are just as important as carbs and protein.
For snacking, I usually have some of the good fat choices and some protein.
My diet varies from 1200 to 1500 - im still in that mind set of losing weight. Its a hard one to break. Yesterday I tried on a few things - brought some mediums and size 6 & 8's back to the dressing room. Im a size 2-4 and a small. I still think im fat. Go figure.
I don't know if my philosphy really matters, I just think it is important to see if there is any facts to support an opinion. There is just so much fitness BS out there it is necessary to be a bit discerning. Now my philosphy in a nutshell. Pre and post workout nutrition is important, sufficient amounts of protien 1-1.5gper lb, efas, and adjust calories and macros to support your goals whether it be maintainance, bulk, or fatloss. How many meals one wants to divide their calories in is personal preference. I prefer 3-4 depending if it is a workout or non workout day. Oh yeah, I will eat carbs right before bed if my meal plan for the day is set up that way.
Okay now this makes sense...first hand experience and not a copied/pasted scientific study that really doesn't hold all that much water.
So three/four meals a day may work for you....for others six...what's the difference as they both work so really that is a non-issue. You also have to keep in mind what men do is obviously going to be different than you needs.
Also I like how carbs may work for you in you scenario but I know for a fact I would never do that...but that is me....but what works for you is not what works for everyone else...
For me though 1.5 grams a protein a minium 2.0 when adding mass.
Thomas Jefferson - "When the government fears the people there is liberty; when the people fear the government there is tyranny."
This is a fascinating thread......my diet is an area I am struggling with. My trainer is constantly on me about what I eat. I dont like to eat. He tells me I have to. To add muscle mass, I have to have the nutrition. He told me not to get on a scale for the first 6 weeks of our training. Talk about hard for someone addicted to the numbers. He told me protein in the morning, protein and carbs at noon and protein and fresh veggies at night. As for snacking, he suggested carrots and cukes and such. I have to force myself to eat. Question - is ranch dressing bad to add to a diet? I try to keep my calorie intake under 1200 a day. And can a protein shake or bar replace a meal? I am always on the go and the bars arent that bad.
Wow, I don't know where to start. First what are your goals? Do you have a timeline? How are you going to add any muscle eating under 1200 cals aday? What is your starting weight? Your trainers nutrition advice sounds retarded at best. You need your carbs before and after your workouts. Do you have any idea what your maintaince level of calories are. calorie calculator
Wow, I don't know where to start. First what are your goals? Do you have a timeline? How are you going to add any muscle eating under 1200 cals aday? What is your starting weight? Your trainers nutrition advice sounds retarded at best. You need your carbs before and after your workouts. Do you have any idea what your maintaince level of calories are. calorie calculator
I agree, more information is definitely needed.
And I think all of us agree 1200 cals seems to be way too low.
But please try to refrain from the "retarded" comments or derogatory comments in general.
We don't know the whole story and I would think we are a bit more civil that than here.
If you choose to post (which you don't) at monkey land feel free to use derogatory comments there and the "bro science" that's for that board not here.
However, there are some things out of whack here.
That being said and this again goes against the grain of some but the specific goals would indicate whether or not carbs pre and post workout are needed.
A keto diet would not use such things.
So we do indeed more information.
May I suggest starting a training log and/or at least a diet log to post in.
It does help to have some accountability at times and others can sometimes see a little something that may be overlooked.
Please give us a bit more background and what the workouts are like, style duration, cardio regimen, etc.
This would be a great start to a "quirky" journal!
And while I don't typically thinkg the calorie counters are very accurate this one seems pretty good.
Thanks for the link 3sweeties.
My problem is I am afraid to get fat again. Its a whole new style of eating that I must force myself to embrace. Especially if I want to reach my goals. After only 10 days training, I have noticed a difference. Stress has been weighing very heavy on me lately. Hopefully that will pass soon. Thanks for the advice.
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I just think it is important to see if there is any facts to support an opinion. There is just so much fitness BS out there it is necessary to be a bit discerning. Now my philosphy in a nutshell. Pre and post workout nutrition is important, sufficient amounts of protien 1-1.5gper lb, efas, and adjust calories and macros to support your goals whether it be maintainance, bulk, or fatloss. How many meals one wants to divide their calories in is personal preference. I prefer 3-4 depending if it is a workout or non workout day. Oh yeah, I will eat carbs right before bed if my meal plan for the day is set up that way. 
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