Losing fat while gaining muscle!!!

[Sal Paradise]

I have to post this because I've have reached a point where I simply must.

I was recently asked to post a question at a "gurus" website about is it possible to lose fat while gaining muscle.
I guess so I could be proven wrong by his "science"
This was started as I was informed it was to be IMPOSSIBLE and I happened to disagree.

It was reasoned that you can't gain muscle and lose fat at the same time in a calorie defiicit and so on.
OK - so let's not even talk about a calorie deficit we're just going to lose fat and gain muscle but if we must go down the road of calorie deficits because that was also part of this - simply change Diet B to 475 calories per meal (see below) and at that point it again must be IMPOSSIBLE because one can't gain muscle in a deficit.

Now please don't read this as it's can always be done - once a person gets to a certain level of bf% it's not going to be possible. So I used the exampe of a person with 30% trying to simply drop to 25% and of course I was still told to be wrong.


OK that's all fine and good but to make this point I'm going to go to a bit of an extreme.
We're going to talk about the same person with both diet plans, man or woman, makes no difference and at the end of this little exercise we can choose one of two things - that is either that you can indeed gain some muscle while losing some fat or we can choose that it's not possible in which case I beg of you to try diet plan A and share the results with all who read this.

Now we're are going to take this one person and list two different diets.
Diet A and Diet B - now diet B isn't going to be some super complicated trade secret, align the moon and stars type of thing. It's going to be fairly simple.
But I'm going to ut the extreme cases up and we can decide.

Now this is not a newbie to training, this person works out but or some reason just hasn't achieved the results they feel they should be getting in the gym. Maybe their diet isn't optimal. So lets use a 230 pound man eating 3500 calories per day as his MAINTENANCE level to hold steadt at 230.

And no, I'm not going to use the exact calorie count of each food listed.
I'm going to implore you good folk at F-G to go along with me as we look at the calories and TYPE of foods this said person eats - not necessarily the exact calorie count for food listed.

Man 32 years old, 230 pounds with bf% of 30.
Has been on Diet A for six months and has been lifting along with it.
Again this isn''t any fancy guru diet, I think this could pretty much be compiled by any one of us.
As said man works out but hasn't seen much results in muscle change or strength and still feels too fat. Wakes up at roughly 6 am and starts work at 8
Let's look at the diets!

Diet A -
3500 calories

Meal 1 - 8:15am
6 doughnuts = 1000 calories
Meal 2 - 5:00pm
2 fried chicken legs,
2 orders of fries,
1 large coke,
1 large milkshake
Total 1500 calories
Meal 3 - 11:00pm
Ice cream float,
half tray of brownies,
2 cans of coke
1000 calories

Diet A is done

Diet B -
3500 calories or as mentioned above we can modify these numbers to be in a calorie deficit where it would again be IMPOSSIBLE to gain muscle.

Meal 1 - 6:20am
Protein shake and oatmeal = 500 calories
Meal 2 - 9:00am
Grilled chicken and oatmeal = 500 calories
Meal 3 - 12:00
Grilled salmon and steamed asparagus
500 calories
Meal 4 - 3:00pm
2 cans of tuna mixed in 1 cup of oatmeal
500 calories
Meal 5 - 5:00pm
Workout shake pre and during workout
500 calories
Meal 6 - 7:00/7:30pm
Post workout shake/meal = chicken & rice
500 calories
Meal 7 - 9:00pm
before bed slow digesting protein shake
500 calories


After the 6 months of Diet A and holding steady at 230 for some time, said man switches to Diet B.

Now accoring to some gurus it's not possible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time.

Yet for some reason the man found that after switching to Diet B - all the while maintaining the same calorie count and weight - he seemed to have dropped some of the fat he was carrying and actually seemed to improved on his lifts and gain some muscle. It couldn't possibly be due to an increase in the necessary protein and aminos and macros that are needed to buld muscle that he was so dearly lacking before.
It makes no difference as it is not possible to gain muscle and lose fat.

So if it is IMPOSSIBLE to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time maybe we should all just stick to Diet plan A.

Of course my thinking is just "bro science" and obviously not at all possible.


Please let me know how Diet plan A works out for all of you.


Sal

[firstenrgy]

Re: Losing fat while gaining muscle!!!

There is only 2 ways that you can/will add muscle and lose fat at the same time:
1. If you are first starting weight training and you are carrying minimal muscle mass, even though you are at a caloric deficit, your body will respond by adding mass while losing bodyfat. Once you are carrying addtional muscle mass it is impossible to add mass without...
2. Anabolic steroids and/or growth hormone.

[daved150]

Re: Losing fat while gaining muscle!!!

There is only 2 ways that you can/will add muscle and lose fat at the same time:
1. If you are first starting weight training and you are carrying minimal muscle mass, even though you are at a caloric deficit, your body will respond by adding mass while losing bodyfat. Once you are carrying addtional muscle mass it is impossible to add mass without...
2. Anabolic steroids and/or growth hormone.

i think this was his point the whole time...
change your example to a 33 yr old male, and you descibed how i got started doing this!!!!
amazes me that people just lay out blanket statement, and when you put forth a living example, you still cant get them to admit the possibility is there!!! wtf? am i a lier?

[3sweeties]

Re: Losing fat while gaining muscle!!!

There is only 2 ways that you can/will add muscle and lose fat at the same time:
1. If you are first starting weight training and you are carrying minimal muscle mass, even though you are at a caloric deficit, your body will respond by adding mass while losing bodyfat. Once you are carrying addtional muscle mass it is impossible to add mass without...
2. Anabolic steroids and/or growth hormone.

Exactly only fat untrained people or people who are assisted can do this.

Sal, your example is retarded. Noone has said you can gain muscle or lose fat without sufficient protien. And just for fun, meal frequency is a myth also.

[jamescb77]

Re: Losing fat while gaining muscle!!!

I am going to have to say that gaining muscle and losing fat is not a myth. Everytime that i try and diet i end up putting on some extra muscle and losing fat. i also up my protein intake a bunch when i diet and pretty much cut everything but protein out of the diet.

[Sal Paradise]

Re: Losing fat while gaining muscle!!!

Exactly only fat untrained people or people who are assisted can do this.

Sal, your example is retarded. Noone has said you can gain muscle or lose fat without sufficient protien. And just for fun, meal frequency is a myth also.

Retarded or not to make a blanket comment and saying that something is not possible when in fact it is, is just as retarded my dear.


And he we go agian with your myth vs fact!!

So you would suggest a bodybuilder getting ready to step on stage to eat all 3000 calories at one sitting?
Well, again you must be right because you read it somewhere. Right?
Sure it must simply be calories invs calories out. RIGHT?
Maybe my BRO SCIENCE isn't written a published book so it isn't true.
WAIT!!! Maybe I'll do that, I know of online services where I could publish a book relatively low cost - then it owuld be a book and it would then be a FACT for 3sweeties.


If you could please enlighten everyone on this board the RIGHT way to do things and get rid of these myths that have been shown to be effective for many years.

PLEASE, PLEASE do this so I can follow the 3sweeties diet plan and turn pro tomorrow!!!!!



Sal

[Sal Paradise]

Re: Losing fat while gaining muscle!!!

i think this was his point the whole time...
change your example to a 33 yr old male, and you descibed how i got started doing this!!!!
amazes me that people just lay out blanket statement, and when you put forth a living example, you still cant get them to admit the possibility is there!!! wtf? am i a lier?

Actually, the point the whole time is that it is simply possble possible.
It's just that this muscle/fat thing is very, very pronounced in a new trainer but it still happens with seasoned trainers as well but to a much lesser degree.
Of course if said person has optimized their diet and trainign then no it would not be an option for them
But like a lot of other real world people out there my offseason diet is far from perfect.
So an increase in protein, aminos and decreasing simple sugars, etc would lead to the muscle gain/fat loss scenario but to a much lesser degree than a newbie.

I will even say for a trained person not just a newbie it's possible.
In the retarded, as I'm told, example above this person isn't a newbie to training.

It can happen with diet changes as I pointed out in that extreme example.

If a person is spiking their insulin with every meal this will lead to additional fat storage, a correct change in diet will help lose that.

If a person stops eating 500 grams of high fructose corn syrup and replaced it with 500 grams of quality protein, while having been training, they will change their body composition.

Yes the example was and is extreme to simply point out that the blanket statements listed as fact is far from it.


Sal

[BoobooKitty]

Re: Losing fat while gaining muscle!!!

I enjoyed reading this Sal....this is what I'm trying to achieve. Dave is helping me out alot. I do not have much fat to lose but I do want to gain some more muscle. So far ...so good.

[Sal Paradise]

Re: Losing fat while gaining muscle!!!

I enjoyed reading this Sal....this is what I'm trying to achieve. Dave is helping me out alot. I do not have much fat to lose but I do want to gain some more muscle. So far ...so good.

I'm very glad you're having success with your training and diet.

Dave is a great support and I'm sure the two of you working together will continue to have great success - although it will become harder after the initial phase and as you get ever closer to where you want to be sooner or later this wonderfully adaptive human body will put an end to the changes.

That's when it becomes time to start fooling the body with various tricks in an effort to become even leaner and more tone.

Keep up the good work!!


Sal

[Stout1]

Re: Losing fat while gaining muscle!!!

There is only 2 ways that you can/will add muscle and lose fat at the same time:
1. If you are first starting weight training and you are carrying minimal muscle mass, even though you are at a caloric deficit, your body will respond by adding mass while losing bodyfat. Once you are carrying addtional muscle mass it is impossible to add mass without...
2. Anabolic steroids and/or growth hormone.

Incorrect. I have done it and I know many others that have while going natty AFTER have lifted for years and/or cycling.

[Stout1]

Re: Losing fat while gaining muscle!!!

Exactly only fat untrained people or people who are assisted can do this.

Sal, your example is retarded. Noone has said you can gain muscle or lose fat without sufficient protien. And just for fun, meal frequency is a myth also.

His example isn't retarded and what he says is true.....and what are you saying about meal frequency?

If say you are eating 3500 cals a day...you can eat that all in one meal is the same as spreading it out?

[Stout1]

Re: Losing fat while gaining muscle!!!

I am going to have to say that gaining muscle and losing fat is not a myth. Everytime that i try and diet i end up putting on some extra muscle and losing fat. i also up my protein intake a bunch when i diet and pretty much cut everything but protein out of the diet.

Agreed! It can be done as long as you know what you are doing and are disciplined. Its the people that don't know what they are doing that are the first to shoot it down.

[BoobooKitty]

Re: Losing fat while gaining muscle!!!

I'm very glad you're having success with your training and diet.

Dave is a great support and I'm sure the two of you working together will continue to have great success - although it will become harder after the initial phase and as you get ever closer to where you want to be sooner or later this wonderfully adaptive human body will put an end to the changes.

That's when it becomes time to start fooling the body with various tricks in an effort to become even leaner and more tone.

Keep up the good work!!


Sal

Thank you. Nothing beats determination. lol

[3sweeties]

Re: Losing fat while gaining muscle!!!

Sorry Sal, but I tend to find scientific sources credible and reason to question whether common fitness practices are just tradition or have sound reasons for doing them.


Title
Bellisle F et. al. Meal frequency and energy balance. Br J Nutr. (1997) 77 (Suppl 1):S57-70.

Abstract
Several epidemiological studies have observed an inverse relationship between people’s habitual frequency of eating and body weight, leading to the suggestion that a ‘nibbling’ meal pattern may help in the avoidance of obesity. A review of all pertinent studies shows that, although many fail to find any significant relationship, the relationship is consistently inverse in those that do observe a relationship.

However, this finding is highly vulnerable to the probable confounding effects of post hoc changes in dietary patterns as a consequence of weight gain and to dietary under-reporting which undoubtedly invalidates some of the studies

We conclude that the epidemiological evidence is at best very weak, and almost certainly represents an artefact. A detailed review of the possible mechanistic explanations for a metabolic advantage of nibbling meal patterns failed to reveal significant benefits in respect of energy expenditure.


Although some short-term studies suggest that the thermic effect of feeding is higher when an isoenergetic test load is divided into multiple small meals, other studies refute this, and most are neutral. More importantly, studies using whole-body calorimetry and doubly-labelled water to assess total 24 h energy expenditure find no difference between nibbling and gorging. Finally, with the exception of a single study, there is no evidence that weight loss on hypoenergetic regimens is altered by meal frequency. We conclude that any effects of meal pattern on the regulation of body weight are likely to be mediated through effects on the food intake side of the energy balance equation.


THE EFFECT OF MEAL FREQUENCY ON BODY
COMPOSITION DURING 12-WEEKS OF STRENGTH
TRAINING
Hansen Øyvind1, Fostervold Mathisen Therese2, Raastad
Truls 2
(Institute of Basic Medical Sciences, University of Oslo1,
Norwegian School of Sport Sciences2, Norway)

Human trials on the effect of meal frequency on body composition are scarce. Short-term studies show increased rate of protein synthesis immediately after intake of amino acids [1], and frequent meals are shown to aid in the preservation of lean body mass when dieting [2]. Consequently it could be hypothesised that in response to strength training, more frequent meals will give larger muscle mass accumulation and lower fat mass (FM) than fewer meals. The purpose of this study was to compare the effects of 3 vs. 6meals per day on changes in body composition in young men and women performing strength training over 12 weeks. Men (n=33) and women (n=15) aged 21 to 35 with at least one year of previous strength training experience were randomly assigned to either a 6 meals a day group or a 3 meals a day group. The prescribed total dietary intake in both groups was equal and calculated to give a positive energy balance of approximately 1200 KJ/day, a protein intake of 1.5-1.7 g/kg/day and a carbohydrate intake of 5-7 g/kg/day. During the training period the dietary intake was controlled by repeated 24-hours recalls. All participants performed the same strength training program, training four times per week, giving each muscle group one heavy session and one light session per week. In the heavy sessions, training intensity varied between 10 and 3 RM sets, and 3-6 sets were performed in each exercise. Determination of body composition was performed with DEXA at the beginning of and immediately after the training period. A total of 16 men and 11 women completed the project. After multiple regression analysis the 3 meal group had a significant greater gain in lean body mass (LBM) than the 6 meal group when adjusted for gender and energy intake (p=0.04), when adjusted for gender and protein intake (p=0.03), and when adjusted for gender, protein intake, carbohydrate intake and fat intake* (p=0.01). (*: Fat intake in g/kg body weight/day showed significance on LBM, p=0.03). No significant differences in regional changes in LBM were observed, although there was a tendency towards a greater gain in the three meal group. There were no significant differences in change in fat mass (FM) between the groups, but a tendency towards a greater gain in the three meal group, 7.33% (-5.23, 19.90), p=0.24. The three meal group had a 2.87%(0.62, 5.12) larger weight gain than the six meal group, p=0.01.The participants had a 2.31% (0.83, 3.79), gain in bone mineral density of the spine during the twelve weeks of strength training, p<0.01, but there were no differences between the groups. In this study, three meals per day resulted in larger muscle gain from strength training than six meals per day over a period of twelve weeks. The reason why 3 meals a day was superior to 6 meals a day in this study needs further investigation. More long-term studies are needed to determine the optimal meal frequency for gain in LBM from strength training.

References:
[1]. Rennie, MJ., Bohe, J., Wolfe, RR. Latency, duration
and dose response relationships of amino acid effects on
human muscle protein synthesis. J Nutr 132(10):3225S-
7S, 2002.
[2]. Iwao, S., Mori, K., Sato, Y. Effects of meal frequency
on body composition during weight control in boxers. Scan
J Med Sci Sports 6:265-272, 1996
Keywords: Strength Training, Body Composition, Nutrition

[Fit2bLarge]

Re: Losing fat while gaining muscle!!!

3sweet, I applaud you for challenging the establishment