uhff...union workers...

[horsepwr]

Re: uhff...union workers...

When people start talking about all the virtues of capitalism and slamming unions I wonder if they see the same things I see. Rememer
sweat shops and child labor, remember buying from the company store? They are still a product of capitalism, but not so much now that unions have forced the changes. How about NAFTA& GAT products of capitalism, where are we benifiting from that ? The people with real money via capitalism in this country have ZERO alliance to us as their only alliance is to the money they can force out of us. I'm not saying all unions are perfect, but with out unions and the changes that they have forced on this country, we would be in a lot more trouble then we are right now. J.R.

I've never been one to put much thought into the subjective. Subjective statements are completely irrelevent.
Just as Ben Bernanke, Time magazine's 'person of the yr'. Some say without Ben Bernanke, the economy would have been even worse. Another subjective statement that's ridiculous.

Bernanke could have, just as well, made things worse. Even more, he could have deliberately contributed to the problem. Heck, he printed money. So as a matter of fact. He did make problems worse.

[horsepwr]

Re: uhff...union workers...

One thing unions have done is created a broader sense of entitlement in Americans. This is not a good thing. No-one should be, or feel, entitled to anything. There are way too many variables in life.
Unions aren't the only thing responsible for this. Welfare & Social Security have done the same, along with other social programs that "provide".
Another problem that unions have played a part in is the creation of a dependent people. And these dependants that rely on their unions for their family's well-being are set up for a possible shock of a lifetime, as we've seen recently with a great number of job loss. That's a major crisis for these families that never imagine the unthinkable. The non-union worker, and especially the business owner is aware of these pitfalls. These people aren't guaranteed things through life that are indeed subject to change, and they act and think in that manner. So, heaven forbid, if and when 'the unthinkable' happens, these people understand the value of picking up another line to run with. No hand-holding needed.

Operating cost can be the demise of a business. Our current government is well aware of this. This is why the non-union business is being handed the union's tab over the next 4-8yrs. This will eliminate a good percentage of the private, non-union sector. I shouldn't have to add that this is not right.

[JsJs24]

Re: uhff...union workers...

When people start talking about all the virtues of capitalism and slamming unions I wonder if they see the same things I see. Rememer
sweat shops and child labor, remember buying from the company store? They are still a product of capitalism, but not so much now that unions have forced the changes. How about NAFTA& GAT products of capitalism, where are we benifiting from that ? The people with real money via capitalism in this country have ZERO alliance to us as their only alliance is to the money they can force out of us. I'm not saying all unions are perfect, but with out unions and the changes that they have forced on this country, we would be in a lot more trouble then we are right now. J.R.

You are gravely misinformed. It is sad to hear people speak as you do. You should realize that if it weren't for capitalism you would not have a job. How do you think industries are started? It takes people with the motivation and determination to start something, to invent something, to make things better, etc. Why is this so hard to understand for some people? If you destroy capitalism you will be left living under communism. That is what Marxism was all about, destroying capitalism and spreading the wealth among the blue collar laborers. Well, you see how well that worked out in Soviet Russia.

People with your mindset are what are ultimately destroying this great nation. Just because you don't posses the courage or desire to build your own company and earn wealth does not make it evil for others to do so. What if all of the rich business owners gave up and quit? How well off do you think the country would be? You probably believe your union workers could do everything better than the wealth creators.

I cannot get through to you people that have socialist Marxist beliefs. It is unfortunate, but highly unlikely that anyone will ever reach you. You are too far gone. But as long as capitalism thrives in this country everyone who has the desire to improve their well being will have the chance. Conversely, once capitalism is destroyed there will be no more chances of success and the world will be a much darker place to live. I suspect you have no idea of what Marxism and Communism actually are. I suspect you were brainwashed in school by the ignorant leftist teachers. It is evident that your unions have brainwashed you, for this is all too common. My own step father is the same way, he thinks the unions made everything possible and that everyone owes thanks to them.

But one last time I will mention a fact that you can ponder but will never understand. The fact is that 93% of the U.S. job market is non-union. Thus, how is it that 7% union employees are the backbone to our country's workforce? How come I have never been in a union and have always made a good living?

This is an awakening thread of how lost some Americans are.

[JsJs24]

Re: uhff...union workers...

When people start talking about all the virtues of capitalism and slamming unions I wonder if they see the same things I see. Rememer
sweat shops and child labor, remember buying from the company store? They are still a product of capitalism, but not so much now that unions have forced the changes. How about NAFTA& GAT products of capitalism, where are we benifiting from that ? The people with real money via capitalism in this country have ZERO alliance to us as their only alliance is to the money they can force out of us. I'm not saying all unions are perfect, but with out unions and the changes that they have forced on this country, we would be in a lot more trouble then we are right now. J.R.

You cherry-picked a few exceptions in capitalism of poor business practices, but you can't think of the 70%+ small businesses in the country that provide jobs and earn their way on their own. Also, I think the word you meant to use is allegiance not alliance, and they need not have allegiance to anyone else because nobody else is looking out for them, again, a socialist concept of dependency you share. Why is it that you think all rich people and all business owners are bad people? I believe it might be because if you can't be rich then you think nobody else should be either. What a sad and warped mindset to have.

[tattoojr]

Re: uhff...union workers...

Where in my post did I say any thing about all rich people or business owner being bad people? You were correct in my use of alliance v. allegieance and I will stand behind that all day long. Laws have been passed because of early union effects that make workers in your 93% non union companies have safety standards, hourly wage laws, overtime laws that effect their everyday lives. I have been a business owner in the past, and know what it takes to make a profit. I did, no where in my post state that union workers are any better skill wise than non union workers, I was stating history and explaining , maybe not so clearly that unrestricted capitalisn is not the great thing you think it is. I am not some 20 year old collage student therorizing some abstract idea, I'm a 52 year old man that has been in the work force for 40 years.
How with your logic do you justify a CEO of a business that is not making a profit getting a 34 million annual salary while laying off the very people that make his product?
Explain how we as Americans will have any jobs here if because of unrestricted capitalism all of our technology and manufaturing jobs are sent to a third world country to increase profits?

[JsJs24]

Re: uhff...union workers...

Where in my post did I say any thing about all rich people or business owner being bad people? You were correct in my use of alliance v. allegieance and I will stand behind that all day long. Laws have been passed because of early union effects that make workers in your 93% non union companies have safety standards, hourly wage laws, overtime laws that effect their everyday lives. I have been a business owner in the past, and know what it takes to make a profit. I did, no where in my post state that union workers are any better skill wise than non union workers, I was stating history and explaining , maybe not so clearly that unrestricted capitalisn is not the great thing you think it is. I am not some 20 year old collage student therorizing some abstract idea, I'm a 52 year old man that has been in the work force for 40 years.
How with your logic do you justify a CEO of a business that is not making a profit getting a 34 million annual salary while laying off the very people that make his product?
Explain how we as Americans will have any jobs here if because of unrestricted capitalism all of our technology and manufaturing jobs are sent to a third world country to increase profits?

You did not directly say that all business owners are bad people but you indirectly said it. You accused all of the business owners with real money of not having allegiance to anything except money, thus I assumed you meant they are greedy people with no respect for anyone else.

CEOs that make those salaries without a profit are pathetic and the shareholders should not allow it. Most CEOs deserve no respect, for they did not build the company, but merely networked their way to the top. You are using examples of the (less than 1%) major corporations who are riddled with government favors and have lobbyists all over Washington. This is another case of where capitalism is intervened on and thus not operating as it should. To understand capitalism you must realize that we have almost completely ruined it with government interventionist policies.

You ask how anyone will have a job due to jobs going overseas. Well, why do you think most of them go there in the first place? It is because of high corporate taxes and strict government regulations. Our own politicians are the cause of this and it is intentionally done because they want to destroy capitalism and replace it with totalitarianism. Also, if the union’s Employee Free Choice Act is passed you will see more companies going overseas to avoid unions from being formed.

Your age is not relevant, what is relevant is that your understanding of capitalism is flawed. First off, we do not have pure capitalism or a free market because of third party intervention. Unions caused more harm than good and the government has continued to intervene in every facet of business. If you were to study capitalism on your own, and not take for granted what is said by those who condemn it, you might realize that it provides the greatest chance for people to better themselves. Markets work according to supply and demand. Of course, you will have greedy business owners who care nothing about their employees, but under pure capitalism the market will flush them out. People will always work where they are compensated the most and treated fairly. Overtime wages could have come about without union intervention eventually because there would have been competition offering better wages and benefits. Unions simply take more than their worth by lobbying the government to mandate stiff regulations on industry. I used an example of my prior job with a company that was paying us lower wages than what we desired. Well, eventually another company joined the industry and recognized the problem and paid us higher wages to come and work for them. Then, the old company raised the wages by 20% across the board to remain competitive.

The fact that you were a business owner is startling when considering how strongly opposed to capitalism you are. Perhaps you were not successful, or perhaps you are truly a progressive and wanted to spread all of your wealth equally among your employees and not reward yourself.

Why should people not have the chance to start a business and profit heavily from it? Why shouldn't people be able to become rich? If people are willing to work for someone in their business that makes the owner rich then where is the problem? Don't work for them if you don't like the fact that they are getting rich. But if you destroy the incentive system of capitalism you will destroy innovation. Nobody is going to invent new products and technologies if there is no reward for doing so.

Have you ever wondered why most of the major inventors and pioneers have been Americans? This is no coincidence. It is because there are rewards to reap. Of course, there are inventions that come about from other countries but nowhere near the number that have come from America. That is why everyone wants to come here, where they have a chance at increasing their well being. Everyone for the most part has the same chances at life in American, with the exception of the handicapped. And yes, there are those who acquire wealth through inheritance, but they often offer nothing better to our world and simply waste away the money they have. I like our system of freedom of choice to rise as high as you are willing to strive.

There are those who merely desire to live life scrapping by paycheck to paycheck and are quite content, and then there are those who desire to excel in life and reap the rewards for doing so. I personally prefer the later to the former and do not understand why I should be looked down upon for doing so.

Those who complain about their status in life typically are not willing to do anything about it. It is not my fault that some people do not see the need to acquire further education after high school, whether it is a trade school or college. If you choose to finish high school and get a job at a factory where there is no special skill set required, and then the factory goes out of business and you are out of work, well then perhaps those people should have leaned a valuable skill to be more marketable. Why is it that people think a company owes them anything? Why can't people understand that nobody else is going to look out for you, so you better prepare yourself to deal with life's difficulties? Invest in an IRA, 401K, Bonds, etc. Prepare yourself for retirement on your own so that if your company goes out of business you don't have anything to fear. Instead, people choose too often to be dependent like a child and expect everything to be handed to them. If you worked for GM your entire career and then got laid off and have no money saved up, that is your own fault, not the taxpayers and not the company's either. If people would stop living in debt and driving fancy cars they can't afford, maxing out credit cards, and buying more of a house than they can afford, then they wouldn't be in the situation many Americans are finding themselves in.

One thing is for sure, Capitalism is what provides the opportunity to be all you can be in life, and when it is destroyed there will be no more chances for anyone. However, the people who hate capitalism are too uneducated to realize that the alternative is not as promising as they perceive. These large unions such as SEIU do not care one bit about the workers; instead they use them as a front to bring about their radical ideals. Go do yourself a favor and read Karl Marx's A Communist Manifesto, and realize how much you are aligning your views directly with Marx. Communism is the alternative, but socialism comes first, as it is the transition stage between capitalism and communism, per the definition of socialism in Webster's.

[horsepwr]

Re: uhff...union workers...

Have you ever wondered why most of the major inventors and pioneers have been Americans? This is no coincidence. It is because there are rewards to reap. Of course, there are inventions that come about from other countries but nowhere near the number that have come from America. That is why everyone wants to come here, where they have a chance at increasing their well being. Everyone for the most part has the same chances at life in American, with the exception of the handicapped. And yes, there are those who acquire wealth through inheritance, but they often offer nothing better to our world and simply waste away the money they have. I like our system of freedom of choice to rise as high as you are willing to strive.
.

An early example of this is the light buld. Edison is recognized around the world for it's invention. You don't hear much about Joseph Swan who simultaniously discovered the incandescent light bulb in Great Britain.

[Fitter X]

Re: uhff...union workers...

Remeber the fifties???? America was the world economic leader. Remember that unions then controled 80% of the work? What happened? The richest elite, the invention of the corporate round table set out to destroy unions. They succeeded. Now look at the country.....broke and borrowing money from who....come on JS. That right socialist countries.

[trip]

Re: uhff...union workers...

First off, companies did not ship jobs overseas because of unions and taxes and this and that.

They shipped them overseas because, worlwide RISKS WERE REDUCED DUE TO PEACE, transit access in emerging markets, and emerging markets realized to attract capital they would have too have laws to protect capital inflows versus screwing the capitilists all ways too Sunday.

Japan, screws you and is closed, they get no soup, no capital. They tried Russia after the wall came down, and Russia screws you, capital has flee'd. China, well, they screw you, but, if you stick around they get too know and love your money, and your good to go, thus, McDonalds, Yum foods, ie, Pepsi...........and dozens of other huge multi-nationals have done okay...............what most folks don't know is China opened there dooors in 1976, so alot of companies have tried, it's hit and miss, yet you got a lot of success's.

Taiwan, South Korea, Mexico, Brazil, Australia, South Africa, all the old Iron Curtains countries, sans Russia, have generally treated capital well, and company moved manufacturing to there countries, it has a doulbe effect reduces labor, plus, closer to markets, and the chance to expand markets.

We are still the largest mfg in the world, with the highest productivity, and majority of what we produce is highly skilled products, a heart stent versus a hammer. An MRI versus an axle. Software code versus, data entry. New cancer drugs, versus aspirin.

It is a fact we have the strongest patent system in the world, and we have had the access to most capital for well over 200 years, think about, America was the internet boom 200 years ago. Industrialazation and manufacturing leap frogged, with the steam engine, and railroads, which again, were first implemented in size in America because it made economic sense cause we had no other transporatation systems and we were factually far apart. Just like now emerging countries don't put in land lines, only wireless cell phones.

A tremendous amount of our largesse comes from timing, and location, when you're on the plains of Kansas and swiss company makes the bearings for the wheels on your wagon, you come to the obvious conclusion, hmmmmmmm, i can probably do this better cheaper and faster because, crap 1/2 the cost is shipping cost and it takes 4 months to get here.

[JsJs24]

Re: uhff...union workers...

Remeber the fifties???? America was the world economic leader. Remember that unions then controled 80% of the work? What happened? The richest elite, the invention of the corporate round table set out to destroy unions. They succeeded. Now look at the country.....broke and borrowing money from who....come on JS. That right socialist countries.

This is funny, I mean really funny. I am not going to even attempt to explain how distorted your comment is, instead I will mention the obvious that you have no clue of what you are talking about.

It is no use arguing with you on this issue any longer. I know what I believe to be true from the research I have done and the real world practices I have engaged in. I have had the opportunity to know and associate with many wealthy people who own large businesses in various industries around the world. I obliged to listen and learn from their experience in real world markets, and to learn of the vast array of complexities involved in global markets.

You will have your opinion and I will have mine. I will not convince those in opposition if I explain my perception of capitalism or the effects of unions on industry. I will live my life by the principles and virtues that I live by and you will do the same. We will never know how each other ends up in life as a result, but I can say that thus far I am proud of my accomplishments and thankful for the deck I was dealt, which is the same deck everyone is dealt, only we all choose how to play out our hand.

Trip can spout off all of his seemingly factual complex examples that aim to prove all of my assertions inaccurate and his superior. That is the great thing about freedom of speech and I will not falter in supporting it. However, I am not compelled the least bit to discard my personal beliefs, which are founded on sound research and experience.

[JsJs24]

Re: uhff...union workers...

First off, companies did not ship jobs overseas because of unions and taxes and this and that.

They shipped them overseas because, worlwide RISKS WERE REDUCED DUE TO PEACE, transit access in emerging markets, and emerging markets realized to attract capital they would have too have laws to protect capital inflows versus screwing the capitilists all ways too Sunday.

Japan, screws you and is closed, they get no soup, no capital. They tried Russia after the wall came down, and Russia screws you, capital has flee'd. China, well, they screw you, but, if you stick around they get too know and love your money, and your good to go, thus, McDonalds, Yum foods, ie, Pepsi...........and dozens of other huge multi-nationals have done okay...............what most folks don't know is China opened there dooors in 1976, so alot of companies have tried, it's hit and miss, yet you got a lot of success's.

Taiwan, South Korea, Mexico, Brazil, Australia, South Africa, all the old Iron Curtains countries, sans Russia, have generally treated capital well, and company moved manufacturing to there countries, it has a doulbe effect reduces labor, plus, closer to markets, and the chance to expand markets.

We are still the largest mfg in the world, with the highest productivity, and majority of what we produce is highly skilled products, a heart stent versus a hammer. An MRI versus an axle. Software code versus, data entry. New cancer drugs, versus aspirin.

It is a fact we have the strongest patent system in the world, and we have had the access to most capital for well over 200 years, think about, America was the internet boom 200 years ago. Industrialazation and manufacturing leap frogged, with the steam engine, and railroads, which again, were first implemented in size in America because it made economic sense cause we had no other transporatation systems and we were factually far apart. Just like now emerging countries don't put in land lines, only wireless cell phones.

A tremendous amount of our largesse comes from timing, and location, when you're on the plains of Kansas and swiss company makes the bearings for the wheels on your wagon, you come to the obvious conclusion, hmmmmmmm, i can probably do this better cheaper and faster because, crap 1/2 the cost is shipping cost and it takes 4 months to get here.

You make some good points Trip as usual, but I did not mean that strict regulations and corporate taxes are the only reason for jobs moving overseas. Of course, lower wages have plenty to do with it, as do high corporate taxes, and IF the Employee Free Choice Act is passed there will surely be companies moving overseas. But cheap labor along with safer trade conditions is a prime factor, and high taxes are as well.

[trip]

Re: uhff...union workers...

My point JS is that the main driving factor is the intersection of time and knowledge and how it grows. Once 10% of major corporations had moved major plants overseas that were successfull, ie, the innovators/risk takers, then you had the follow on group, over time 20 years, more and more companies did it each year........capitol flows were capital grows based on an adjusted risk...............

One day, maybe 20 years hence, america will have massive capitol inflows due to the fact, the house of cards will have been decimated, and debt destroyed, and our competitive advantages as a nation will prevail.............

Employee free choice act to me is just another piece of total bs, hell they can have it if they want, the fact is biz can only pay wages they can afford to stay in business and my best guess is in the next two years we are about too see a major shift in everything.
ALL GOVERNMENTS are way too indebted, we are at the point of a negative feedback loop, ala, a vicious circle.........you can't raise taxes or more biz will go under, no jobs will be created because there is no demand..........governments have too many programs and too many people in relation to what the people can support.

bottom line is we still have to much debt and profit cannot support it

as a nation we are the united states of american airlines, that's my personal play book, the peak for airlines were in 1997, so for 13 years they have been in a volatile environment of cost cutting and volatile raw costs of energy...........it has survived yet it sure as hell ain't pretty, and the future ain't so bright

I'm curious, what do all of these big money smart people tell you about the future and how they see it...........what is there take on things (i'm serious, curious)

[Fitter X]

Re: uhff...union workers...

Ok JS, I'll conceed that I'm not as educated as you on the topic economics. Although you spout your opinions as gospel the world should follow, and for the most part it does. That is why we are in the midst of one of the biggest ressesions ever. I don't need to type out paragragh after paragraph repeating what I've already stated.
I do indeed have an understanding of what I speak of. I think you the bigger fool. Your type of thinking has brought this country to it's knees. Destroying the middle class it seems is your main objective. As proven by the policies established by that mindset. It is tragic that you care so little for others well being.
You state that unions are socialist in nature. If that be true then is the United States a socialist country? Are we not a group of individule states come together for protection and strenght? With elected officials to govern our affairs. It is no different in the labor unions, except that states are people. Union officails are elected not appointed. Are unions corrupt? HELL YES THEY ARE!! Is our Federal government corrupt? HELL YES IT IS!!. Is big business corrupt? HELL YES!! It matters not which political party reigns in authority. I personally am a protectionist and trade isolationist. I'm a proud American, a veteran and a registered voter. I write and call my representives and senators on many issuses.
You are like so many others pointing their finger at the so called culprit. When in fact you see the true problem when you look into the mirror.
I look forward to your next page long response of your famous retort.

[JsJs24]

Re: uhff...union workers...

My point JS is that the main driving factor is the intersection of time and knowledge and how it grows. Once 10% of major corporations had moved major plants overseas that were successfull, ie, the innovators/risk takers, then you had the follow on group, over time 20 years, more and more companies did it each year........capitol flows were capital grows based on an adjusted risk...............

I'm curious, what do all of these big money smart people tell you about the future and how they see it...........what is there take on things (i'm serious, curious)

Trip, we have an accord! You have stated very clearly a sound explanation of what has driven businesses overseas. Of course, I do add corporate taxes and high wages to the causes, but you hit it all in your assertion that government

Business owners I know fear taxes and government regualtion will make it nearly impossible to remain in business.

[JsJs24]

Re: uhff...union workers...

Ok JS, I'll conceed that I'm not as educated as you on the topic economics. Although you spout your opinions as gospel the world should follow, and for the most part it does. That is why we are in the midst of one of the biggest ressesions ever. I don't need to type out paragragh after paragraph repeating what I've already stated.
I do indeed have an understanding of what I speak of. I think you the bigger fool. Your type of thinking has brought this country to it's knees. Destroying the middle class it seems is your main objective. As proven by the policies established by that mindset. It is tragic that you care so little for others well being.
You state that unions are socialist in nature. If that be true then is the United States a socialist country? Are we not a group of individule states come together for protection and strenght? With elected officials to govern our affairs. It is no different in the labor unions, except that states are people. Union officails are elected not appointed. Are unions corrupt? HELL YES THEY ARE!! Is our Federal government corrupt? HELL YES IT IS!!. Is big business corrupt? HELL YES!! It matters not which political party reigns in authority. I personally am a protectionist and trade isolationist. I'm a proud American, a veteran and a registered voter. I write and call my representives and senators on many issuses.
You are like so many others pointing their finger at the so called culprit. When in fact you see the true problem when you look into the mirror.
I look forward to your next page long response of your famous retort.

Fitter, I am passionate about my views and feel certain that capitalism is the only way to maintain a free and prosperous life. I really wish you could understand that I do not stick up for the large corrupt corporations that give capitalism a bad rap. I wish we had a free market, in which there is no government intervention. The problem with capitalism is that the government has tarnished its image and is working endlessly to destroy it. Our country was built from capitalism, but the government has grown so large and intervened to such a degree that it is not true capitalism anymore. I believe the government should stay out of the business world with the exception of protecting people's rights and safety. Large corporations are corrupt because they have lobbyists who get favors from politicians, which creates an unfair advantage for the rest of the businesses who do not participate in the political corruption. I have a question for you: Do you think monopolies could exist in a true free market? The answer is no in my opinion, because without government support no business could become a monopoly; the playing field would be level. You are condemning capitalism because all you see or hear about are the large corporations who have abused the system. You claim that capitalism is against the middle class, but the majority of businesses in the U.S. are owned and operated by the middle class. The average businessman makes an average salary, or perhaps a little higher, but he or she is not wealthy.

The reason we are in the biggest recession ever is because of government intervention in the banking loan industry and lack of intervention where it was necessary on Wall Street.

For the record, I too am a prior active duty veteran and served in Iraq on two tours active duty, and 1 tour in South Korea, and went back to Iraq and Afghanistan 4 more times as a military contractor working for an aircraft manufacturer. I am about as big a patriot as they come, which is what drives me to stand up for our rights, our constitution, and our liberty. I am a middle class American, so why should I condemn the middle class. I do strive to be as successful as I can become, but what is wrong with that. What is wrong with believing that people should earn their way in life without the government handing them anything for free. I recognize that government is the opposite of freedom, the more government you have the less freedom.