Complete ban on guns?!!!

[horsepwr]

Re: Complete ban on guns?!!!

oh I agree. I've always said that these men of the bible should be all or nothing. And it bugs the hell out of me how people pick parts of the bible they want as you said. I would love to get 10 preachers and 10 scholars of the Bible together and see how many different versions of meaning behind every passage/verse. I just have a problem with most religious rationale in general. I have family that attend a nondenominational church every time the doors are open. It's just a church of the Holy Bible. They take things like where Jesus said that a woman that cut her hair might as well be sheered like a sheep literally, and that means it's a sin for a woman to cut her hair.??? I don't see how they come to that conclusion, but I could debate til the cows come home things that are written and perceived in that book.

[BIGMOFO]

Re: Complete ban on guns?!!!

each person has to do what you think is best and act on things in the way you believe. I will not give up my guns and i would never want to harm anyone, but if they were to try and harm my wife or kids...they would die!

[mandarb11]

Re: Complete ban on guns?!!!

Oh I agree with you there, I beleive that a person has a right to defend themselves and their family. I used to have a good friend that was a true beleiver and we had a discussion one day about killing. I asked him it he would kill someone that was going to kill his family, he argued that he would not. I was shocked, as almost anyone would defend their family in such a way. He said that if he did that then he would be wilfully committing a sin. Basically Christinity teaches that this life is nothing, meaningless in and of itself. It is the afterlife that matters so persecution during this life really doesn't matter. I did not agree with him but I understood that he TRULY beleived in these teachings.

Horsepwr I hear you with all the interpretations that can come of the bible, tat is why there ar roughly 2500 protestant sects in the world today. Each time a group thought they had the answer and broke away from "the rest" was all due to interpretation. I have studied religion and primarily Christianity since I was 14, and also academically in university, and i can say the bible is full of contradictions so if you took it with each individual passage you could find various parts saying the exact opposite of others (it is more prevalent in the old testament than in the new). I personally love many of the teachings of Chrisitanity I just rarely ever see it being excersised.

[mandarb11]

Re: Complete ban on guns?!!!

Oh a saying a good friend of mine always uses that makes me laugh everytime, "Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die". Think about it is is really quite a profound statement!

[horsepwr]

Re: Complete ban on guns?!!!

Oh I agree with you there, I beleive that a person has a right to defend themselves and their family. I used to have a good friend that was a true beleiver and we had a discussion one day about killing. I asked him it he would kill someone that was going to kill his family, he argued that he would not. I was shocked, as almost anyone would defend their family in such a way. He said that if he did that then he would be wilfully committing a sin. Basically Christinity teaches that this life is nothing, meaningless in and of itself. It is the afterlife that matters so persecution during this life really doesn't matter. I did not agree with him but I understood that he TRULY beleived in these teachings.

Horsepwr I hear you with all the interpretations that can come of the bible, tat is why there ar roughly 2500 protestant sects in the world today. Each time a group thought they had the answer and broke away from "the rest" was all due to interpretation. I have studied religion and primarily Christianity since I was 14, and also academically in university, and i can say the bible is full of contradictions so if you took it with each individual passage you could find various parts saying the exact opposite of others (it is more prevalent in the old testament than in the new). I personally love many of the teachings of Chrisitanity I just rarely ever see it being excersised.

I would have to say I picked up some contradictions from the bible as well. As there logically should be. You're getting writings of 12 disciples and what they heard from where they were standning, or what they got from a situation, so of coarse, I think there should be some contradictions. My grandfather however told me "no, the bible does not contradict itslef.", and he knows it, I mean word for word. You can pick a couple of parts that seem to be in contradiction with one another and my grandfather will go into full detail and explain them in line for you with great articulation.

[mandarb11]

Re: Complete ban on guns?!!!

Ya that is because these contradictions have been pored over for many years and followers of the faith have done their best to come up with explanations for the inconsistancies. As scholar I know the various books of the new testament were written from aproximately 80 CE (common era) to as late as 150 CE. The earliest book being mark from which matthew and luke borrowed heavily from. These are called the synoptics due to many of the same stories being in them. I love discussing this stuff, great to see a like minded person!

[horsepwr]

Re: Complete ban on guns?!!!

Now I don't know the Bible too well, but I have read a good bit of it...probably the whole thing just parted out in sections, out of order and over different times. But that is pretty much exactly what you're getting from the disciples...The same story from 12 different perspectives. I've always questioned the accuracy of thes guys. They were known to indulge in the spirits. And I don't mean the Holy Ghost. Another thought that's crossed my mind; Ya know how thru time or even in different towns as we speak, there have been and are individuals that are looked up to like almost a hero like perspective. The people that are close to the individual or people that have even just been in the presence of the great individual will pass along stories, exaggerated stories that make the individual seem almost super human. They do this because they really look up to the great person and want the person they're telling the story to to feel the same about them. Well the disciples definitely looked up to Jesus in this way so I wonder if anything was ever infalted slightly because it seems to almost be the natural thing to do when man idolizes another person.

[mandarb11]

Re: Complete ban on guns?!!!

Here are a few names to look up, mithras, honi the circle drawer, osiris, dyonisis...even well known stories like that of Hercules....there are quite a few. All of these figures in historical mythology have similar occurances to those of the story of Jesus ie. divine births, dying and resurrecting, performing miricles, etc. These all preceded the time of Jesus, in fact early Christians had to defend their beleifs against pagans that brought up this very point, one of the responses that always made me laugh was essentially well the devil knew that jesus was coming so he made up these figures in the past to detract from the miricle that Jesus will bring.

My point is that the followers of Jesus seemed to have attributed many aspects / stories to him that came from older pagan religions. This was a common practice in the ancient world though, it is just to most of us modern people we don't research into our history so very few people know about this, although all biblical scholars do!

The bible as a whole is a wonderful book, and the teachings of Jesus are of great value if actually followed. But like all things the writers of the gospels (which scholars do not agree was written by the disiples and the authors themselves do not claim to be disciples, it was the catholic church that ascribes these books to certain disciples shortly after canonization) were looking at embellishing the stories that they heard and recorded, sometimes adding things, sometimes taking away.

Shortly after Jesus's death there were literally dozens of different Christian sects alive and each had it own interpretation of what Jesus was. Some claimed him to just be a man, others that he was a god, it was not until Emperor Constantine brough many of the main leaders of the various Christian sects together at the council of Nicea in 325 CE to make all these church fathers agree on what the official doctrine was concerning Jesus. This is when the apostles creed was created to signify these beleifs, ie Jesus was both man and god, divine birth, miricles, resurrection.....anyone that beleived differently, had the might of Rome to quash their ideas. So today the form of Christinity in existance is the by product of Rome adopting Christianity as the official religion.

Just in 1945 a group of scrolls was found that became known as the Nag Hammadi, which is a group of ancient Christian writings, by one of the groups of Christians that were wiped out known as the Gnostics. Among this collection were many stories that never made it into official canon (although the gospel of Thomas was almost adopted by the Catholic church when they cannonized the bible as we know it today (catholics and protestants actually have a few different book canonized in the old testament). Many of these works we never knew existed thats how well Rome supressed all other ideas! I could go on.....the point is yes you are correct in your assertion that the writers added to the stories of Jesus, Just read the book of Mark carefully then read John and you will find a completely different Jesus from each author!

[Klash]

Re: Complete ban on guns?!!!

Oh a saying a good friend of mine always uses that makes me laugh everytime, "Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die". Think about it is is really quite a profound statement!

I like that statement. Shows the strength of a persons faith. I was the kid that after being exposed to Christianity, life seemed trivial and I was always talking like that at age 5,6,7 - that I couldn't wait to die and that I didn't see the point in living; so much so that my parents thought I was depressed. No! I was just ready to live in heaven; good thing Christianity doesn't have the 72 virgins in their doctrine - I probably wouldn't be here!!!

[horsepwr]

Re: Complete ban on guns?!!!

Many of these works we never knew existed thats how well Rome supressed all other ideas! I could go on.....the point is yes you are correct in your assertion that the writers added to the stories of Jesus, Just read the book of Mark carefully then read John and you will find a completely different Jesus from each author!

I have for a while wanted to go thru and find some of the inconsistencies and really study them so that I can state my case better with grandpop because he knows it like the back of his hand and I'm always going off faint memory of what I read and got from it. Maybe I can find some "ammo" for mine and grandad's next debate. We have good ones.

But yeah, I'm glad you see exactly what I'm saying about stories told of these heros through history.

[mandarb11]

Re: Complete ban on guns?!!!

well pick up any book by a scholar named Bart D. Ehrman, he is one of todays leading biblical scholars, excellent information. He focuses alot on the early books of Christianity the early church etc. There is so much information to learn on this subject but once you get the interest it is hard to satiate. Any info you need from me I will be more than happy to help! You can show your granpa a thing or two! lol Older people rarely have an open mind for discussion unfortunately, but it would be fun nonetheless!

[mandarb11]

Re: Complete ban on guns?!!!

I like that statement. Shows the strength of a persons faith. I was the kid that after being exposed to Christianity, life seemed trivial and I was always talking like that at age 5,6,7 - that I couldn't wait to die and that I didn't see the point in living; so much so that my parents thought I was depressed. No! I was just ready to live in heaven; good thing Christianity doesn't have the 72 virgins in their doctrine - I probably wouldn't be here!!!

Too true if I followed such beleifs it would be hard to stay in this world when the promise of paradise is just around the corner. One must consider that many of these beleifs came about at a time when the Jews were being persecuted and had little hope of a future (there whole history is full of such instances) and everytime prophetic works that spoke of hope for the future and punishment of the prosecuters would be punished emerged (read the book of Daniel (during the 1st diaspora) and Revelations (written after the 2nd diaspora).

[BIGMOFO]

Re: Complete ban on guns?!!!

repent and ask for forgiveness and I will get it, so if you hurt my fam..i will kill you and then ask for forgiveness!

[horsepwr]

Re: Complete ban on guns?!!!

well pick up any book by a scholar named Bart D. Ehrman, he is one of todays leading biblical scholars, excellent information. He focuses alot on the early books of Christianity the early church etc. There is so much information to learn on this subject but once you get the interest it is hard to satiate. Any info you need from me I will be more than happy to help! You can show your granpa a thing or two! lol Older people rarely have an open mind for discussion unfortunately, but it would be fun nonetheless!

oh he's a champ. He loves discussion. I mean, you can tell that he just thrives for those debates, but he is like you could imagine... That book, Holy Bible, is the only way and how he and his preacher have interpreted is the way, as every man of the Bible believes. So, you can really only get so far. Plus you have to be very careful, especially with family, because a man's beliefs are what he is made of. Not many people are truly open minded. I've noticed alot of folks that claim to be, are actually not. They just believe they are because they think differently than the norm or majority.

[mandarb11]

Re: Complete ban on guns?!!!

Too true my friend, but if your grandfather enjoys debating that is awesome, when you get up there in age things like that can really keep a person going. I wish I had, had a grandfather like that it would have motivated me to find some way to stump him, but in a respectful way of course. Everyone thinks they are open minded but we all have our own prejudiced viewpoints, this is hard to get around, but does not mean we are incapable of learning!