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LOL, sorry, Crank, I wasn't clear. I'm aware of DC and the theories involved, just not in a personal context. I'll hit you up via PM with a few questions, if you don't mind!
I personally think that the blast and cruise style of cycling gives you the best of both worlds.... I just started cycling this year and just started my second blast. I lost pretty much none of the gains from the first blast and I definitely recovered partially during my cruise.... This is the way I will cycle for at least a year... Then I will reasses where I am at.
Im glad to see im not the only one who stays on year round with a few cruises thrown in. I used to prefer 6 month cycles i kept more of my gains that way. I also believe that the yoyo effect of short cycles is actually harder on your body.
As long as i run my HCG following the Swales protocol my recovery is no harder after a long cycle then a short one.
You gain 20 lbs you lose 15lbs your next cycle you gain 15 you lose 10 and it continues as many times as you cycle that year. Meanwhile if you had stayed on you would be 20 or 25lbs heavier wouldnt have subjected your body to repeated bouts of PCT. You would be much stronger then you could have gotten the other way with a harder more muscular look. You wouldnt have had to deal with repeated bouts of depression as you watch the muscle you just gained melt off as your strength decreases as your sex drive goes to hell. Common sense would lead me at least to believe that repeating this process over and over has a negative effect on the body and my state of mind.Why go thru it 3 or 4 times when you can just go thru it once. My opinion i am not stating it as fact.
As most everyone who has done a long cycle can testify you keep most of your gains. I believe the body actually resets it set point for body mass.For my 6 month cycles i was keeping 80% or more and i have cycled for years. I havent completed my first year long cycle yet but im doin great right now. My blood work came back ok my blood pressure is under control my balls are full and hanging. The sides are no worse then they are when i run a short cycle. The acne on my back has actually started to subside on its own. Once again my observations not clinical facts.
Many clinical studies have shown test run for a year or more in the 600mg range and those people had no health issues. When they prescribe test for birth control it is for extended periods of time. I am betting my health that most of the negative claims about long term test use are either overstated or out right untruths.
As long as i keep the HTPA stimulated PCT at the end is no worse then after a short cycle. The Swales HCG protocol works great for this.
These are my opinions based on what i have read and my own experiences i am not trying to sway anyones opinion or push my opinion off as fact. Edvedr asked why i thought the way i do and this is it in a nutshell. I am sure many will tee off on what i have said thats fine. Most will be tearing down something they have never tried.
Keep this in mind most of the freaks you see never come off. If you wanna be a freak you have to do what it takes to get that way. You think Ronnie or anyone else on the stage at the O this year adheres to 8 week cycles? I bet most of them havent been off for years.
I'm not going to "tee off" on you at all bro, but I AM going to disagree with you on a few points that you mentioned.
First and foremost, if your first paragraph accurately described anyone's cycling experience, theres a more fundamental problem with their cycle and exercise regimen than simply time on. Personally, I don't lose ANY LEAN MASS gains that I make. I emphasize "lean mass", because I don't consider water weight a "gain" in the first place, nor do I consider the bit of fat that I gain and subsequently lose part of my overall gains. The goals of my cycles are to get stronger and grow muscle. Period. My point is that something just isn't right if an athlete is losing 20 of 25 lbs gained or 10 of 15 lbs gained. Either their cycle was of poor design or their PCT was inadequate or their diet was sub par. Some combination of those will result in the kinds of gains/losses that you describe. Take care of those, and you won't lose nearly as much, if anything.
The notion that cycling on and off is less healthy than staying on for extended periods of time is flawed, for a few reasons. NOTE: I didn't say that it wasn't effective or even necessary to look like Ronnie. All I'm saying is that it's not healthy, and it's not healthier than cycles anywhere from 10-16 weeks in length, for instance. Here's why:
There are some studies that suggest that prolonged exogenous Testosterone use won't permanenty shut down he body's natural ability to produce Test. I think in the one study that I'm thinking of, 95% of the subjects were able to regain their ability to produce Test. It just took longer, 6-9 months. What hasn't been considered is the long-term affects of keeping your body shut down for that long.
I understand where you are coming from, but those studies are all based on low to moderate doses. That is all fine and dandy, but 95% of the people that are on extended cycles or year round aren't taking moderate dosages. They are taking extreme amounts, more than any of those studies show, so it is hard to compare.
The other thing is, what happens when an athlete can't afford to maintain this kind of AAS use, or hwn it comes time to come off? The pychological affect of coming off after an extended cycle versus an 8,10,12 weeker, is going to be more severe.
You're right when you say that if you want to be a freak, that's what you're going to have to do. Not everyone here, I'll venture a guess that most here do not have "freak" as their goal. They may WANT to look like that, but most won't actually do what needs to be done to achieve that look. Not a bad thing, IMO.
Now, I'm not trying to tear anything down, here. I don't think that the assertion that anyone who disagrees with your philosophy, does so only out of ignorance, is a fair call. Hey, I know a bro who takes Anadrol by the handful, and yeah, he's big mofos, but, he's also a heart attack just waiting to happen. I'm sure that he makes the same argument that you do, but, I'll bet $$$ that you wouldn't receommend that anyone stays on Drol for 24 weeks at a time, would you? No. You don't need practical experience to tell you that your taking chances with your life by doing so.
Personally, my experience has been a long cycle of a moderate AAS have produced greater results for myself than shorter higher dosed cycles. However, when I say "long", I'm talking about 12-16 weeks. Perhaps it is because it is strength I am after and I benefit so much from the enhanced recovery that I really dont start hitting my peak untill several months of consistant usage. Also it seems to be equally as challenging regaining natural test after being on for 10 weeks as compared to 16 weeks so in that regards why not just stay on longer? In the end the individual needs to do what is best for them in the long run. However, 6+ month long cycles just don't make sense to me, in light of my training goals.
For the beginner I think that means moderate dose, moderate duration with plenty of time off in between.
I would like to try the DC, cycle approach, I just wonder how one will recover when they finnally do come off. Cant be easy. I know the cruise is supposed to stimulate htpa, but It cant do much as you are still running a drug that is keeping you shut down
You gain 20 lbs you lose 15lbs your next cycle you gain 15 you lose 10 and it continues as many times as you cycle that year. Meanwhile if you had stayed on you would be 20 or 25lbs heavier wouldnt have subjected your body to repeated bouts of PCT. You would be much stronger then you could have gotten the other way with a harder more muscular look. You wouldnt have had to deal with repeated bouts of depression as you watch the muscle you just gained melt off as your strength decreases as your sex drive goes to hell. Common sense would lead me at least to believe that repeating this process over and over has a negative effect on the body and my state of mind.Why go thru it 3 or 4 times when you can just go thru it once. My opinion i am not stating it as fact.
As most everyone who has done a long cycle can testify you keep most of your gains. I believe the body actually resets it set point for body mass.For my 6 month cycles i was keeping 80% or more and i have cycled for years. I havent completed my first year long cycle yet but im doin great right now. My blood work came back ok my blood pressure is under control my balls are full and hanging. The sides are no worse then they are when i run a short cycle. The acne on my back has actually started to subside on its own. Once again my observations not clinical facts.
Many clinical studies have shown test run for a year or more in the 600mg range and those people had no health issues. When they prescribe test for birth control it is for extended periods of time. I am betting my health that most of the negative claims about long term test use are either overstated or out right untruths.
As long as i keep the HTPA stimulated PCT at the end is no worse then after a short cycle. The Swales HCG protocol works great for this.
These are my opinions based on what i have read and my own experiences i am not trying to sway anyones opinion or push my opinion off as fact. Edvedr asked why i thought the way i do and this is it in a nutshell. I am sure many will tee off on what i have said thats fine. Most will be tearing down something they have never tried.
Keep this in mind most of the freaks you see never come off. If you wanna be a freak you have to do what it takes to get that way. You think Ronnie or anyone else on the stage at the O this year adheres to 8 week cycles? I bet most of them havent been off for years.
I'm not going to "tee off" on you at all bro, but I AM going to disagree with you on a few points that you mentioned.
First and foremost, if your first paragraph accurately described anyone's cycling experience, theres a more fundamental problem with their cycle and exercise regimen than simply time on. Personally, I don't lose ANY LEAN MASS gains that I make. I emphasize "lean mass", because I don't consider water weight a "gain" in the first place, nor do I consider the bit of fat that I gain and subsequently lose part of my overall gains. The goals of my cycles are to get stronger and grow muscle. Period. My point is that something just isn't right if an athlete is losing 20 of 25 lbs gained or 10 of 15 lbs gained. Either their cycle was of poor design or their PCT was inadequate or their diet was sub par. Some combination of those will result in the kinds of gains/losses that you describe. Take care of those, and you won't lose nearly as much, if anything.
The notion that cycling on and off is less healthy than staying on for extended periods of time is flawed, for a few reasons. NOTE: I didn't say that it wasn't effective or even necessary to look like Ronnie. All I'm saying is that it's not healthy, and it's not healthier than cycles anywhere from 10-16 weeks in length, for instance. Here's why:
There are some studies that suggest that prolonged exogenous Testosterone use won't permanenty shut down he body's natural ability to produce Test. I think in the one study that I'm thinking of, 95% of the subjects were able to regain their ability to produce Test. It just took longer, 6-9 months. What hasn't been considered is the long-term affects of keeping your body shut down for that long.
I understand where you are coming from, but those studies are all based on low to moderate doses. That is all fine and dandy, but 95% of the people that are on extended cycles or year round aren't taking moderate dosages. They are taking extreme amounts, more than any of those studies show, so it is hard to compare.
The other thing is, what happens when an athlete can't afford to maintain this kind of AAS use, or hwn it comes time to come off? The pychological affect of coming off after an extended cycle versus an 8,10,12 weeker, is going to be more severe.
You're right when you say that if you want to be a freak, that's what you're going to have to do. Not everyone here, I'll venture a guess that most here do not have "freak" as their goal. They may WANT to look like that, but most won't actually do what needs to be done to achieve that look. Not a bad thing, IMO.
Now, I'm not trying to tear anything down, here. I don't think that the assertion that anyone who disagrees with your philosophy, does so only out of ignorance, is a fair call. Hey, I know a bro who takes Anadrol by the handful, and yeah, he's big mofos, but, he's also a heart attack just waiting to happen. I'm sure that he makes the same argument that you do, but, I'll bet $$$ that you wouldn't receommend that anyone stays on Drol for 24 weeks at a time, would you? No. You don't need practical experience to tell you that your taking chances with your life by doing so.
Personally, my experience has been a long cycle of a moderate AAS have produced greater results for myself than shorter higher dosed cycles. However, when I say "long", I'm talking about 12-16 weeks. Perhaps it is because it is strength I am after and I benefit so much from the enhanced recovery that I really dont start hitting my peak untill several months of consistant usage. Also it seems to be equally as challenging regaining natural test after being on for 10 weeks as compared to 16 weeks so in that regards why not just stay on longer? In the end the individual needs to do what is best for them in the long run. However, 6+ month long cycles just don't make sense to me, in light of my training goals.
For the beginner I think that means moderate dose, moderate duration with plenty of time off in between.
ok i agree wt amlost there, i'am not trying to say that blink is wrong, but personally i know 2 pro who lives in my area and 1 of tehm goes at my gym, they stay all year long, i have asked them what do tehy cycle all year but wouldn't tell me but i know for fact GH, and 1 know 1 pro aslo who use tren ALL FUCKING YEAR LONG,......
damn it blink i was waiting for his response....but i'll keep mine brief....i have tried long cycles if yiou read my above posts.....blood work done before.....during and after....there are monay other problems tied with AAS and i hear talk of recovery only......people do run into cholesterol problems...this is one of the biggest if you ask me....now u might not have a problem buts lets say someone does.....and they run long cycles.....most people do not run blood work like they should and that a big reason why i say not to advise long cycles especiaslly sayin its easier on body....a newbie can take that the wrong way and hurt themselves.....anyways back to cholesterol.....if someone gets low hdl...high hdls and has high blood pressure....they are a heart attack waiting to happen....and the longer they stay in that position the worse it gets and is harder to correct.....now i'm gonna keep it short....but like i said just because you seem to be gettin low sides doesn't mean everyone will and your taking your own risk....whcih is fine i have done it also for many years.....but i also found out using my body that long cycles is more hurtfull to my body and i would guess its like that for most people
one other observation i made on myself.....the depression and loss of libido was something i really suffered from a couple of times coming off....but the shorter the cycle and more time off in between the cycles....the less i suffered from those 2 bastards.....i've been off for almost 4 months i think....after a very long one about 10-11 months....and when i came off it honestly felt like a million pounds of pressure and stress were lifted off of me....thats when i said thats it no more of this shit.....just short...time on=time off cycles for me.....but hey thats me....my first goal in this game was to figure out how AAS effected ME....and then broaden my knowledge...which is where i'm at now!
I'm not going to "tee off" on you at all bro, but I AM going to disagree with you on a few points that you mentioned.
First and foremost, if your first paragraph accurately described anyone's cycling experience, theres a more fundamental problem with their cycle and exercise regimen than simply time on. Personally, I don't lose ANY LEAN MASS gains that I make. I emphasize "lean mass", because I don't consider water weight a "gain" in the first place, nor do I consider the bit of fat that I gain and subsequently lose part of my overall gains. The goals of my cycles are to get stronger and grow muscle. Period. My point is that something just isn't right if an athlete is losing 20 of 25 lbs gained or 10 of 15 lbs gained. Either their cycle was of poor design or their PCT was inadequate or their diet was sub par. Some combination of those will result in the kinds of gains/losses that you describe. Take care of those, and you won't lose nearly as much, if anything.
The notion that cycling on and off is less healthy than staying on for extended periods of time is flawed, for a few reasons. NOTE: I didn't say that it wasn't effective or even necessary to look like Ronnie. All I'm saying is that it's not healthy, and it's not healthier than cycles anywhere from 10-16 weeks in length, for instance. Here's why:
There are some studies that suggest that prolonged exogenous Testosterone use won't permanenty shut down he body's natural ability to produce Test. I think in the one study that I'm thinking of, 95% of the subjects were able to regain their ability to produce Test. It just took longer, 6-9 months. What hasn't been considered is the long-term affects of keeping your body shut down for that long.
I understand where you are coming from, but those studies are all based on low to moderate doses. That is all fine and dandy, but 95% of the people that are on extended cycles or year round aren't taking moderate dosages. They are taking extreme amounts, more than any of those studies show, so it is hard to compare.
The other thing is, what happens when an athlete can't afford to maintain this kind of AAS use, or hwn it comes time to come off? The pychological affect of coming off after an extended cycle versus an 8,10,12 weeker, is going to be more severe.
You're right when you say that if you want to be a freak, that's what you're going to have to do. Not everyone here, I'll venture a guess that most here do not have "freak" as their goal. They may WANT to look like that, but most won't actually do what needs to be done to achieve that look. Not a bad thing, IMO.
Now, I'm not trying to tear anything down, here. I don't think that the assertion that anyone who disagrees with your philosophy, does so only out of ignorance, is a fair call. Hey, I know a bro who takes Anadrol by the handful, and yeah, he's big mofos, but, he's also a heart attack just waiting to happen. I'm sure that he makes the same argument that you do, but, I'll bet $$$ that you wouldn't receommend that anyone stays on Drol for 24 weeks at a time, would you? No. You don't need practical experience to tell you that your taking chances with your life by doing so.
Personally, my experience has been a long cycle of a moderate AAS have produced greater results for myself than shorter higher dosed cycles. However, when I say "long", I'm talking about 12-16 weeks. Perhaps it is because it is strength I am after and I benefit so much from the enhanced recovery that I really dont start hitting my peak untill several months of consistant usage. Also it seems to be equally as challenging regaining natural test after being on for 10 weeks as compared to 16 weeks so in that regards why not just stay on longer? In the end the individual needs to do what is best for them in the long run. However, 6+ month long cycles just don't make sense to me, in light of my training goals.
For the beginner I think that means moderate dose, moderate duration with plenty of time off in between.
I figured people would tee off cause this seems to be a pretty conservative board when it comes to cycles length and dosing. I disagree that one can keep all the muscle they gain on a cycle . The longer you use the harder it is to make gains and keep them. The first one or two i would believe no losses but number 20 no way. Its not possible i watch the people around me at the gym yoyo up and down and find it amusing as hell. I personally keep my water weight to an absolute minimum i know the difference between muscle and water.
Are you familiar with Iron Addicts views on this subject?(Keeping gains and dosing)
Check out his board and look around. You will also notice that long ass cycles and high doses are common place among his members. Some of his members are monsters. If no one lost any muscle after they came off a cycle we'd all have pro cards by now.
After 6 months PCT is no harder then after 2 or 3 months why should a year be any different. Once again there info is out there from those who have done it and know what actually happens.
DG was the one who put me on this path he laid it all out for me and told me if i want to look like i belong in a cage this is what i had to do. He laid out dosing and a few PCT protocols that would restart you quickly after a year. I used to train with him on and off and he was a monster. I miss him at the gym he was a very smart bro and a hell of a nice guy the man would give you the shirt off his back.
If freaky size and vascularity or strength is not the goal then why the AAS?
If your goals are not freaky size why would you subject your body to the abuse of even moderate cycles? Nothing is without a price the question is what price are you willing to pay. You dont need steroids to look good with your shirt off or to bench 250lbs for reps. Personally i feel that if you cant handle 250 for reps or have a good size and strength base you shouldnt turn to the drugs anyway. Iron Addicts thoughts on this subject hit the nail right on the head.
Finacially AAS are cheap so im not gonna go into what i have laying around or access to lets just say i buy everything i need before i start. Pct included
Your training goals are obviously much different then mine i can repect that. I wouldnt recomend the crazy Drol usage unless you knew what could happen. If a person knows what can happen to their body and want to do it anyway that is their choice and it is not my place to judge. I have however seen people put up blood work results after long term (abuse) of AAS and things have came back in the acceptable range so you draw your own conclusions.
I could fill this thread with things i have read and results people have gotten and where their natural test levels are now but none of it is clinical in nature hence easy to pick apart so i wont waste my time. You can find info to support any point of view on the net so all of it should be taken with a grain of salt. I feel personal results far out weigh paper and pencil studies.
I do not think anyone that doesnt agree with me is wrong that wasnt the point i was trying to convey. My point was people with 2 or 3 cycles under their belt blasting long term usage they have never tried happens all to often.
I wanna hear from people that have done 20 or more cycles like myself over the course of years and here their opinions on these subjects. I personally am only now back up in the 230lb range for bodyweight. I had a horrible accident about 3.5yrs ago that had me bed ridden and 150lbs. My goal is the 270lb range lean full on freak status. Would i recomend extended cycles for a newbie NEVER. Would i recomend high doses for a newbie NEVER. I totally agree with your last sentence.
This thread asked for my preference which i have been asked to defend. So right or wrong i know what i have to do to get where i want to be. Being 200lbs and in shape is not an option for me. I have goals and am willing to do what it takes to get there and long term high dose usage is the only way i am goin to get to where i want to be.
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