Nolvadex vs. Clomid

[Lite Gear]

This is a post I copied when I was doing soem research, I think it was copied from another post. Either way maybe it will help.

Q. Do you think there are any research chem. combos that are as good as taking hcg post cyc.? I know 10 different people will answer this ten different ways but I'm looking for some more insight along with my own observations.

A. got this from The Sane Cycle by Big Cat

he also recommends using HCG in conjuction with the following:

The choice of a Tamoxifen/clomiphene/spironolactone combination

The choice for a tamoxifen/Clomiphene combo is primarily because of two factors. Only one relevant study (1) came up as far as recovery after a stack of products (testosterone and nandrolone) was used for twelve weeks, utilized HCG and both clomiphene and tamoxifen to achieve a complete recovery of the HPTA to acceptable levels in 45 days. The second reason is the raging war over which is the better post-cycle drug, clomiphene or tamoxifen has lead to several conclusions. The first is that while 150 mg of clomiphene and 20 mg of tamoxifen have lead to roughly a similar increase in LH levels (17) , but that with the high dosing of clomiphene over time there are certain disadvantages. Such as that it may damage eyesight and may act as a weak estrogen (18) in undesirable places (like the pituitary). So using tamoxifen alongside it will allow us to lower the dose and decrease the chance of these side-effects and add the distinct benefit that Tamoxifen (being the stronger of the two) will prevent the clomiphene from exerting any much influence at the pituitary, and that it will increase LH responsiveness to GnRH (17) where Clomiphene does not. Clomiphene is still used as it seems to offer other advantages, such as an increase in SHBG (19), which may seem like a bad thing at first, but which may decrease androgen-related negative feedback and may thus be in our advantage.

Regardless of the final outcome I feel I have settled the dispute, at least in my own head. Why bother figuring it out when we can use both, limit any negative effects and reap the proven benefits of full recovery ? I used to run tamoxifen slightly less long than clomiphene, but given the suppressive effects of the latter at the pituitary, I later decided it wiser to continue running tamoxifen as long as the clomiphene.

The addition of spironolactone is one of personal choice. It is a systemic anti-androgen that will reduce androgen-related negative feedback. Lack of androgens may also increase a loss of muscle tissue however, so whether or not you run it and for how long I leave up to you. I can only offer you personal findings, no studies. But in my experience the use of spironolactone during the first two weeks of clomiphene treatment offered a significant advantage in the amount of recovery post-cycle without any significant amount of muscle loss. But since I have no actual verifiable data on this, I will not attempt to push this too hard. The use of clomiphene alone should already aid in this by increase SHBG.

[Lite Gear]

I am just pasting things that I haev saved. I would post the direct link, but I wasn't smart enough to save them

Clomid and Nolvadex are SERM's and act accordingly. Both will not do much to raise endogenous test levels to any significant degree...what they do is inhibit estrogen-induced suppression at the hypothalamus...and as a side not Nolvadex does a much better job than Clomid.
Although steroids suppress testosterone production primarily by lowering the level of gonadotropic hormones discussed above, the big roadblock to a restored HPTA after we come off the drugs is surprisingly not the level of LH itself. This problem is made clearly evident in a study published in Acta Endocrinologica back in 1975(1). Here blood parameters, including testosterone and LH levels, were monitored in male subjects whom were given testosterone enanthate injections of 250mg weekly for 21 weeks. Subjects remained under investigation for an additional 18 weeks after the drug was discontinued. At the start of the study, LH levels became suppressed in direct relation to the rise in testosterone, which is to be expected. Things looked very different, however, once the steroids had been withdrawn (see Figure I). LH levels went on the rise quickly (by the 3rd week), while testosterone barely budged for quite some time. In fact, on average it was more than 10 weeks before any noticeable movement started. This lack of correlation makes clear that the problem in getting androgen levels restored is not the level of LH, but in fact testicular atrophy and desensitization to this hormone. After a period of inactivation the testes have apparently lost mass (atrophied), making them unable to perform the workload required by heightened levels of LH

It is important to understand that anti-estrogens alone do not do much to restore endogenous testosterone release after a cycle. Normally they only foster LH by blocking the negative feedback of estrogens, and we now see that LH rebounds quickly without help anyway. Plus, post cycle there is not an elevated level of estrogen for anti-estrogens to block, as testosterone (now suppressed) is a major substrate used for the synthesis of estrogens in men. Serum estrogen levels will actually be lower here as a result, not higher. Any estrogen rebound that occurs post-cycle likewise happens concurrently with a rebound in testosterone levels, not prior to it (note there is an imbalance in the ratio post cycle, but this is another topic altogether). We are seeing no mechanism in which anti-estrogenic drugs can really help here. We can see why this fact would not be difficult to overlook, however. The medical literature is filled with references showing anti-estrogenic drugs like Clomid and Nolvadex to increase LH and testosterone levels, and in normal situations these drugs do indeed increase endogenous androgen production by blocking the negative feedback of estrogens. Combine this with the fact that just as many studies can be found to show that steroid use lowers LH levels when suppressing testosterone, and we can see how easy it would be to jump to the conclusion that post-cycle we need to focus on restoring LH. We would miss the true problem of testicular desensitization unless we were really looking into the actual recovery rates of the hormones involved. When we do, we immediately see little value in using anti-estrogenic drugs.

So we now see, contrary to the dominating opinion of the times, that anti-estrogens alone will do little to raise testosterone levels in the early weeks of the post-cycle window. This leaves us to focus on a very different level of the HPTA in order to hasten recovery: the testes. For this we will need the injectable drug HCG. If you are not familiar with it, HCG, or Human Chorionic Gonadotropin, is a prescription fertility agent that mimics the bodies own natural LH. Although the testes are equally desensitized to this drug as LH (they both work through the same mechanism), we are administering it as a measured drug and are therefore not constrained by the limits of our own LH production. We similarly can use HCG to provide a bolus dose of LH (of our choosing), which works only to augment the recovering LH levels we already have in the body. In essence we are looking to shock them with an overwhelmingly high level of LH activity, coming from both endogenous and exogenous sources. We want it to reach a level far above what our body, even when supported by anti-estrogens, could possibly do on its own. The result can be a rapid restoration of original testicular mass and functioning, which would allow normal levels of testosterone to be output much sooner than without such an ancillary program. What we are looking at now is HCG actually being the pivotal post-cycle drug, while anti-estrogens are relegated to a supportive role at best.
An ideal post-cycle recovery program will focus on two things really. The first is hitting the testes hard with HCG. It is important, however, not to overuse this drug. Taken for too long, or at too high a dosage, the LH receptor will actually become desensitized to LH(2) , which may further exacerbate our post-cycle problem instead of helping it (this is why I am not in favor of regular HCG use on-cycle). My experience with HCG has led me to feel comfortable using it for a course of three weeks, at a dosage of maybe 5000-7500IU weekly. Often the last week I limit the dose to 2,500IU, unless the cycle has been particularly long or potent. This is timed so at least half of the total administered drug dosage will be given when there is still exogenous steroid in the body. On our graph above this would be at about the 3-week mark after the last injection of testosterone. This will give the testes some time to get back into shape before the baseline is actually hit with T levels. Secondly, Anti-estrogens are used to play a supportive role at the same time, so 20mg of Nolvadex or 50-100mg of Clomid would typically be added This is to combat the suppressive effects of estrogen as testosterone levels start to go back up, as well as potential side effects (HCG has been shown to increase testicular aromatase activity as well (3)). Although in the first couple of weeks the anti-estrogen does little, it may indeed be helpful when testosterone levels actually start to get back up near normal. To further stimulate the HPTA, and support continuingly high LH levels, the anti-estrogen remains to be used for 2 to 3 weeks after the HCG therapy has been stopped. A sample program, as it would be instituted in our sample post-cycle window, is provided below.

Week
Amount

Week 3:
5000IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily

Week 4:
5000IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily

Week 5:
2500IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily

Week 6:
20mg Nolvadex daily

Week 7:
20mg Nolvadex daily

Week 8:
20mg Nolvadex daily
Understanding Post Cycle “T” Recovery
by William Llewellyn


In addition, there is much anecdotal evidence that proves HCG usage throughout the cycle will prevent the atrophy in the first place. This seems to be a much better solution...

1) Avoid testicular atrophy, or
2) Rectify the problem of an existing testicular atrophy.

Doses of HCG
Smaller doses, more frequently during a cycle will give best overall results with least unwanted side effects. Somewhere between 500iu and 1000iu per day would be best over about a two-week period. These doses are sufficient to avoid/rectify testicular atrophy without increasing oestrogen levels too dramatically and risking gynecomastia. This dosing schedule also avoids the risk of permanently down-regulating the LH receptors in the testes

[Lite Gear]

Last one

Here is a good profile written by big cat that may help you out.

Clomid and Nolvadex

Pharmaceutical Name: Clomiphene (as citrate)
Molecular weight of base: 405.9663
Molecular weight of ester: 192.125 (citric acid, 6 carbons)


Effective dose: 100-150 mg/day orally
Average Street-price: $1 - $4, prices can vary heavily
Available Doses: 25 and 50 mg tabs
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pharmaceutical Name: Tamoxifen (as citrate)
Molecular weight of base: 371.5212
Molecular weight of ester: 192.125 (citric acid, 6 carbons)



Effective dose: 20-40 mg / day orally
Average Street-price: $30 for 300 mg (30 tabs of 10)
Available Doses: 10,20,30 and 40 mg tabs


Characteristics:

While practically similar compounds in structure, few people ever really consider Clomid and Nolva to be similar. Its not just a common myth in steroid circles, but even in the medical community. This misconception originates from their completely different uses. Nolvadex is most commonly used for the treatment of breast cancer in women, while clomid is generally considered a fertility aid. In bodybuilding circles, from day one, clomid has generally been used as post-cycle therapy and Nolvadex as an anti-estrogen.

But as I intend to demonstrate this is in essence the same. I believe the myth to have originated because Nolva is clearly a more powerful anti-estrogen, and the people selling clomid needed another angle to sell the stuff, so it was mostly used as a post-cycle aid. But few users really understand how clomid (and also Nolvadex, logically) works to bring back natural testosterone in the body after the conclusion of a cycle of androgenic anabolic steroids. After a cycle is over, the level of androgens in the body drop drastically. The body compensates with an overproduction of estrogen to keep steroid levels up. Estrogen as well inhibits the production of natural testosterone, and in the period between the return of natural testosterone and the end of a cycle, a lot of mass is lost. So its in everybody's best interest to bring back natural test as soon as humanly possible. Clomid and Nolvadex will reduce the post-cycle estrogen, so that a steroid deficiency is constated and the hypothalamus is stimulated to regenerate natural testosterone production in the body. That's basically how the mechanism works, nothing more, nothing less.

Both compounds are structurally alike, classified as triphenylethylenes. Nolvadex is clearly the stronger component of the two as it can achieve better results in decreasing overall estrogen with 20-40 mg a day, than clomid can in doses of 100-150 mg a day. A noteworthy difference. Triphenylethylenes are very mild estrogens that do not exert a lot, if any activity at the estrogen receptor, but are still highly attracted to it. As such they will occupy the receptor and keep it from binding estrogens. This means they do not actively work to reduce estrogen in the body like Proviron, Viratase or arimidex would (by competing for the aromatase enzyme), but that it blocks the receptor so that any estrogen in the body is basically inert, because it has no receptor to bind to.

This has advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage is that when use is discontinued, the estrogen level is still the same and new problems will develop much sooner. The advantage is that it works much faster and has results sooner than with an aromatase blocker like Proviron or arimidex. Therefor, when problems such as gynocomastia occur during a cycle of steroids one will usually start 20 mg/day of Nolva or 100 mg/day of clomid straight away, in conjunction with some Proviron or arimidex. The proviron or arimidex will actively reduce estrogen while the clomid or Nolvadex will solve your ongoing problem straight away. This way, when use is discontinued there is no immediate rebound.

So which one should you use? Well personally, I'd have to say Nolvadex. Both as an on-cycle anti-estrogen and a post-cycle therapy. As an anti-estrogen its simply much stronger, demonstrated by the fact that better results are obtained with 20-40 mg than with 100-150 mg of clomid. For post-cycle, this plays a key role as well. It deactivates rebound estrogen much faster and more effective. But most importantly, Nolvadex has a direct influence on bringing back natural testosterone, where as clomid may actually have a slight negative influence. The reason being that Tamoxifen (as in Nolvadex) seems to increase the responsiveness of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness a bit1.

Another noteworthy fact about Nolvadex is that it acts more potently as an estrogen in the liver. As you remember, I mentioned that clomiphene and tamoxifen are basically weak estrogens. Well, tamoxifen is apparently still quite potent in the liver. This offers us the positive benefits of this hormone in the liver, while avoiding its negative effects elsewhere in the body. As such Nolvadex can have a very positive impact on negative cholesterol levels2 in the body, and therefore too should be considered a better choice than clomid. It will not solve the problem of bad cholesterol levels during Steroid use, but will help to contain the problem to a larger degree.

Another reason why I promote the use of Nolvadex over Clomid post-cycle (as if being 3-4 times stronger and having more of a direct effect on restoring natural test wasn't enough) is because it's a lot safer. Not just because it improves lipid profiles, but also because it simply doesn't have the intrinsic side-effects that Clomid has. Clomid causes more acne for sure, but that's mainly because you need to use a 3-4 times higher dose. But Clomid seems to also affect the eyesight. Long-term clomid therapy causes irreversible changes in eyesight3 in users. Irreversible. For me that alone is reason enough to prefer Nolvadex.

Lastly, one should be aware that use of these compounds can reduce the gains made on steroids. Nolvadex more so than clomid, simply because it is stronger. Estrogen is responsible for a number of anabolic factors such as increasing growth hormone output, upgrading the androgen receptor and improving glucose utilization. This is why aromatizing steroids like testosterone are still best suited for maximum muscle gain. When reducing the estrogen levels, we therefore reduce the potential gains being made. For this reason one may opt to try clomid during a cycle instead of Nolvadex. Although I would imagine that the problem that needed solved would be of more concern, in which case Nolva remains the weapon of choice. It's a plain fact that there is a high correlation between gains and side-effects. Either you go for maximum gains and tolerate the side-effects, or you reduce the side-effects, and with it the gains. That's life, nothing is free.

Stacking and Use:

If problems of Gynocomastia or other estrogen related symptoms tend to pop up during a cycle the use of 20-30 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid daily should easily contain the problem, and be used until a few days after the problem subsides. For best results and the least amount of problems upon cessation it is best stacked with Proviron (50 mg) or arimidex (0.5 mg) for this duration as well. Its not advised that these products be ran concomitantly with the steroid for the entire duration of the stack, as this will reduce your gains. Instead cease the usage of anti-estrogens once the problem is contained, and should the problem resurface, simply recommence the use of the products in the same manner as described above.

Once a cycle of steroids is concluded one should always initiate a post-cycle therapy to help bring back natural testosterone as soon as possible. This will help you to retain the mass you gained. How this is done depends highly on the type of steroid used. If only orals were used, therapy should start immediately, even the last day of the stack. If short-acting esters or water-based injectables were used, therapy should commence within 4-7 days after last injection, and if long-acting esters were used then it should commence 1.5 to 2 weeks after the last injection was given. The length of the therapy will vary as well, from 3-5 weeks. The longer acting the product was, the longer therapy should be continued to make sure all suppressive factors are cleared before use of Clomid/Nolvadex is discontinued.

For best results, it is best stacked with HCG (Human Chorionic gonadotrophin), which functions as an LH analog and can help bring testicle size back up. HCG use starts the last week of a cycle, and on from there every 5-6 days (usually 1500-3000 IU) and discontinued 1.5 to weeks prior to the cessation of Nolvadex/clomid. The reason being that HCG itself is also suppressive of natural testosterone and should be out of the body before therapy is over, or it will inhibit natural testicle function. But I can not stress enough that HCG possibly plays a more important role in post-cycle therapy than clomid/Nolvadex. For Clomid and Nolvadex, doses are usually tapered down. Its best to start with 40-50 mg of Nolvadex or 150 mg of Clomid for the first week or the first two weeks, and then finish the program with 20-25 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid for an additional two weeks.

References

1 Vermeulen A., Comhaire F., Hormonal effects of an anti-estrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men, Fertil. Ster. 29 (1978) 320-27

2 Bruning PF, Bronfer JMG, Hart AAM, Jong-Bakker M, tamoxifen, serum lipoproteins and cardiovascular risk, Br. J. Cancer 1988 Oct, 58 (4) 497-9

[jsjs24]

Good read lite gear.

[bdtr]

You know my opinion and you know how ive done both and the nolva clomid combo worked best. Nolva alone took me forever to recover from and my sex drive was shot not to mention i lost almost all of my gains.

[gearedup]

I used HCG first then I used nolv/clo/arimidex and the combo worked great this time I am going to use more HCg and forget what it was called in a study someone posted but I think HMG!

[XxDAHULKxX]

I'm running nolva at 10mg/day at mid cycle through the end.........i would rather do this than have symptoms of gyno even start. I was told that 2wks after my last test shot i should bump it up to 20mg/day for the next 2wks........I'm wondering if i should do the nolva/clomid combo, although they are suppose to be teh same thing......something i never got clearly.

[talon]

Lite gear, Thank you for the very informative responses. I have been looking into this issue, of which one is better, for a while, because Im trying to figure out MY best road to recovery. I have all three (clomid, hcg, and nolvadex) which I had pre-cycle. Now was just trying to figure out, through research and other peoples experiences which was the best or to comibine them. I think Im going to ditch the idea of using hcg because I have heard to many neg. to outway the positives of its use, like increased chances of getting gyno. I am going to go with the nolva/clomid combo for post cycle. Please fellas be free to post more on this. I am always willing to learn more......