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Why are people saying drop the milk thistle, I was under the impression that this is one of the best proven liver protectants that is actually backed by many peer reviewed studies.
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"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination
alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'press on' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race."
Calvin Collidge (1872-1933)
30th U.S. President
johnsonpride81@cyber-rights.com -
Maybe something has proven to be more effective (like R-ALA?), I really don't know.Originally posted by smalls
Why are people saying drop the milk thistle, I was under the impression that this is one of the best proven liver protectants that is actually backed by many peer reviewed studies.
But, Now that I have posted the actual Liver Enzyme values, I'd like to get opinions on my livers health based on actual numbers.
I don't mean to be pushy or anything but this is my health and I need to know if AST=108 and ALT=187 is "very bad" or just " Dude, be careful", these are my first "high enzyme counts" and (as you should be able to understand) I am pretty anxious. But, I also don't want to get "shut down" becaus I don't have any test on hand (or clomid for that matter, just nolvadex) yet because I didn't plan on needing it for at least a couple of weeks. If I can get away with this cycle for another two weeks I can switch and stay on my planned cycle. Help me out here, I could use the good advice.
Thanks guys (really!)Comment
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yikes! that's pretty high bro.Originally posted by DerCribben
Alright, my AST was 108 and my ALT was 187 . anybody who knows post opinions please.
AST normal: 2-50
ALT: 2-60
mine was up to 60/114 respectively and i was worried enough to drop all liver/kidney stressing agents. yours really is up there bro.
milk thistle is ok, but there are better things available, such as tylers, and r-ala.
to answer your question directly, YES - that is very bad imo. i'm not a doctor yet, but you need to take action right away.The burden of originality is one that most people don't want to accept. They'd rather sit in front of the TV and let that tell them what they are suppose to like, what they're suppose to buy, and what they're suppose to laugh at. You have Beavis and Butthead telling you what music you're allowed to like and not like, and you've got sitcoms that have canned laughter that lets you know when to laugh if you're too stupid to know when the joke is. People are too lazy and too stupid to think for themselves because America has raised them that way.
mod @ superiormuscle.comComment
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just to add - what you really need to have checked is AGT. this number actually measures liver function. this number should be around 15-50...The burden of originality is one that most people don't want to accept. They'd rather sit in front of the TV and let that tell them what they are suppose to like, what they're suppose to buy, and what they're suppose to laugh at. You have Beavis and Butthead telling you what music you're allowed to like and not like, and you've got sitcoms that have canned laughter that lets you know when to laugh if you're too stupid to know when the joke is. People are too lazy and too stupid to think for themselves because America has raised them that way.
mod @ superiormuscle.comComment
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Alright bro, point taken. Is it going to be like this every time? I've only been on Fina for 4-6 weeks and I just started taking Winny again 3 days ago. what gives, I thought that (except the Winny) that these were less than the medium/average doses.Originally posted by goliath.jr
yikes! that's pretty high bro.
AST normal: 2-50
ALT: 2-60
mine was up to 60/114 respectively and i was worried enough to drop all liver/kidney stressing agents. yours really is up there bro.
milk thistle is ok, but there are better things available, such as tylers, and r-ala.
to answer your question directly, YES - that is very bad imo. i'm not a doctor yet, but you need to take action right away.
75mg Fina ed/ 100mg WEinny edComment
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Originally posted by DerCribben
Alright bro, point taken. Is it going to be like this every time? I've only been on Fina for 4-6 weeks and I just started taking Winny again 3 days ago. what gives, I thought that (except the Winny) that these were less than the medium/average doses.
75mg Fina ed/ 100mg WEinny ed
well...i disagree with the masses in regards to fina and kidney/liver stress. most say it does not affect them, but my personal experience and that of friends says otherwise. (there is no data to prove one way or the other) for this reason, i personally would never run a fina/winny combo. especially not 100mg's of winny ed. that's fairly high...i'd keep it at 50mg/day in the future. 75mg's of fina ed is average yes, but imo when combined with winny is just asking for trouble.
weren't you taking any precautions at all???The burden of originality is one that most people don't want to accept. They'd rather sit in front of the TV and let that tell them what they are suppose to like, what they're suppose to buy, and what they're suppose to laugh at. You have Beavis and Butthead telling you what music you're allowed to like and not like, and you've got sitcoms that have canned laughter that lets you know when to laugh if you're too stupid to know when the joke is. People are too lazy and too stupid to think for themselves because America has raised them that way.
mod @ superiormuscle.comComment
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Discontinue all AS use and tell your doc about ANY other medications you are taking (this includes over the counter drugs). Many drugs like tylenol, lipitor and accutane... are hard to clear by the liver. No booze and within weeks you will test normal. Your liver is under stress but those levels aren't that bad. Good luck.
firstenrgyA government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -Thomas JeffersonComment
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Liver Function was normal, I asked them specifically today what all of the test results were and what the actual values were rather than whether my levels were "five times the normal". My AST and ALT were elevated but my glucose was normal as well as my liver function and the other parts of my blood workup were normal as well.Originally posted by goliath.jr
just to add - what you really need to have checked is AGT. this number actually measures liver function. this number should be around 15-50...Comment
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i read alcoholics have an ast of 300 and an alt in the thousands. just pretend your an alcoholic for 6 weeks, then the results dont look so badComment
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To understand your situation would require a history and other lab diagnostics - At the very least.
Hyperlipidemia is a term we use to describe an increase in either plasma cholesterol or plasma triglycerides. These may occur in combination or in pure forms. Generally there are three main causes: 1) dietary, 2) genetic, and 3) secondary to other diseases or drugs. One distinction is that the dietary forms are generally more mild than the genetic forms.
Triglycerides are more subject to changes in food consumption prior to laboratory investigation than cholesterols. LDL or HDL may be normal but triglycerides high if a patient doesn’t fast; or perhaps drinks coffee with cream prior to giving the laboratory sample. There are a number of lipid disorders that result in isolated triglycerides elevation. Usually the triglycerides levels are 1000 mg/dL or above, while the LDLc levels are often low or normal. Although often there is a genetic component, a poor diet or fluctuations in exercise can make a problem more obvious.
Perhaps a patient has a predisposition for pancreatitis, which will manifest itself when the patient drinks alcohol or otherwise challenges his liver.
If I suspected this, I would ask the patient if he had any abdominal pain; palpate the thoracic and abdominal cavities for abnormalities, and inquire with the patient if he is taking medications that may be challenging the liver. Other times the patient may have developed a hormonal imbalance that insidiously initiated insulin intolerance. Taken together with a challenged liver, the patient may well develop high triglycerides levels via that combination of mechanisms.
Anyway, interpretation of laboratory results is not a simple process of using cut-off values; for example, all levels above 240mg/dL are not all bad. The relationships between various values have a dynamic interrelationship. Moreover, many outside influences can skew results. Laboratory error may be a factor. Variations in lab results for the same individual may vary from day to day. And triglycerides values are the least reliable. Therefore, a single measure is insufficient if high. In this case, consideration of rechecking with a second sample is often suggested. If the two measurements differ more than 16% (performed on different days), then a third sample is recommended.
Moreover, I would consider enzymes and blood indices, together with the history and other data, before I began to hazard a diagnosis.
MaxComment
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max,
Nice post, very informative.
Welcome to the board.Comment
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Max, you've got a PM. Welcome to the board.Comment
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There is no turning back now
you've woken up the demon in me.Comment
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not to mention great service!
The burden of originality is one that most people don't want to accept. They'd rather sit in front of the TV and let that tell them what they are suppose to like, what they're suppose to buy, and what they're suppose to laugh at. You have Beavis and Butthead telling you what music you're allowed to like and not like, and you've got sitcoms that have canned laughter that lets you know when to laugh if you're too stupid to know when the joke is. People are too lazy and too stupid to think for themselves because America has raised them that way.
mod @ superiormuscle.comComment
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Where has R-ALA been proven to be better for the liver than milk thistle? Not calling you, I would just like to see the info."Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination
alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'press on' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race."
Calvin Collidge (1872-1933)
30th U.S. President
johnsonpride81@cyber-rights.comComment
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