over 50 grams of protine is a waste?????

[YellowJacket]

I agree. 50 grams of whey post workout is the only time that much whey should be consumed. The glucogenesis via whey protein is very rare, its usually slower digesting proteins that convert via the Cory cycle to glucose, whey is usually excreted. Good thread all around though.

[Data]

Hello my name is Data, I usually visit the anabolex.com forum but I would like to post some information on protein if I am welcome!

I disagree with the mainstream bodybuilding community that supports higher protein diets for several reasons. This is going to be a choppy presentation rather than a smooth dialogue.

First it’s important to understand some basic nutritional biochemistry.

After proteins are broken down into their constituent amino acids your body reassembles amino acids in specific orders for specific functions. Once the reassembled proteins are used for their purposes, amino acid residue, the portion of the amino acid that is left over after the nitrogenous portion has been stripped away, is either glycogenic (capable of converting to glucose) or ketogenic (capable of converting to ketones). Only three amino acids are ketogenic. Through a process known as gluconeogenesis the residue is converted to glucose, contributing to the overall energy demands. Therefore, excess protein above what your body requires for building and repairing structural tissues is converted into glucose and utilized for energy or stored as fat.

Hence, positive nitrogen balance refers to an environment positive for growth since excess nitrogen is excreted by your body through your urine, feces, etc. Positive nitrogen retention indicates an upper limit of protein intake for the purpose of building and repairing structural tissues.

Most reliable resources of information that do not profit from the sales of supplements have found that the upper limit of protein intake for strength athletes is 1.1 to 1.5 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight, assuming a lean condition. Surprisingly long duration aerobic athletes require more protein than strength athletes for gluconeogenesis. Check the latest DRI research for more information.

Therefore, a massively built bodybuilder such as Mentzer who weighed in around 215lbs requires 110 to 150 grams of protein per day to maintain and build his muscles. Interestingly enough, through phone and email conversations I had with Mentzer, I learned that he consumed between 75-100 grams of protein per day during his ’79 (?) competition against Arnold. In other words, this drug abusing heavyweight managed to exceed the development of most trainers in the world and on this forum (I assume) consuming as little as 1g/kg or 0.45g/lbs of protein per day.

An additional argument against high protein diets is the protein needs of an infant. Protein needs are highest during the first year of birth. Infants will double their birth weight in the first six months and triple birth weight during the first year. No bodybuilder, steroids or no steroids, would be able to match these enormous changes. Yet an infant requires around 2.2 grams of protein per kilogram or 1 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight. Teenagers aged 15 to 18 years also undergo rapid muscular growth during puberty and require 50-60 grams of protein per day. Relative to an infant or teenager, most advanced bodybuilders do not grow nearly as much. Its doubtful that the daily protein requirements exceeds an infants. Furthermore, the weight of muscle is mostly water, approx 70%, so why wouldn’t drinking more water lead to larger muscles?

The truth is that you can’t force your body to utilize more protein above its needs. Its no different than vitamin c, mega-dosing vitamins is not any more productive, the excess is excreted. With protein, the excess is converted into glucose or ketones, and stored or burned. Only if the diet is deficient will supplementation provide a benefit. Besides, there is no guarantee that the additional protein will be utilized to build the structural tissues. For amino acids to be used specifically for protein synthesis they must be capable of, and combine with, specific enzymes used to facilitate the process. Why not look into consuming more enzymes?

Few athletes look at the unity of the organism. They fail to have a holistic approach, looking for a singular cause of specific results, rather than looking at a single process in its relationship to a whole. So you have bodybuilders that just count protein and calories, but are deficient in vitamins, minerals, and essential fats. This is an indication of a lack of education, or at least not reading scientifically based textbooks but profit orientated magazines.

[prolangtum]

Doesnt steroids change this equation though?

[YellowJacket]

Originally posted by prolangtum
Doesnt steroids change this equation though?

It changes the retention levels of nitrogen, thus more retained... so its ideal to consume more protein, or maybe thats just wha tus mainstream bodybuilders think


I give up.

[Governor]

Originally posted by YellowJacket



I give up.

lol

[prolangtum]

I shoot for about 50g a meal anyways, i would just try for more meals to be on the safe side

[fragmaster3sum]

science is science is science and so what? all these scientific facts figures and values come from the same "scientists" that told us that steroids do not build muscles and now tell us well ok maybe they do but site injecting does not work better on the muscle chosen than on the rest of the body... and who now ask the body building community for there facts and figures... ha!! they make me laugh... i bet the world is flat after all

[fragmaster3sum]

any how i would be physically sick trying to consum 300 grms of protien every day with out supps how much chicken,fish and stake can someone eat before they get sick of the sight of it?.... 2-3 protein shakes per day and proper balanced meals cant be wrong......

[newgirl]

I am coming to this thread a little late.

Firstly, MOST people are not people who are fitness/bbers who systemically burn through more protein, fats and carbs than most regular people. They have greater nutritional needs than the average joe.

It would hold up as true -- put two men with similar backgrounds on a cycle -- one eating the RDA while the other eating the way the standard bber eats. Who would get the most out of their cycle?

Equally, dietations, nutritionists etc. all work from the same printed matter that has not truly been re-tested for years. These are the same ideals that came up with the dreaded food pyramind that suggests a much higher value is found in eating carbs as the basis of the American diet....and do you know what has happened in the 20 years or so since we have heard that low fat, high carb diets are good for you?

Americans got fatter and fatter.

I would also add that every body is different. Why not do your own experiment? Eat the RDA way of life for 4 months. Of course take your measurements and track your workouts BEFORE beginning your 4 month test and then switch back to the higher protein version (what I call a typical fitness diet) and make the same data keeping.

I will tell you that you feel better, are leaner, more muscular and sleep better at night eating a fitness diet chocked with protein than the RDA way.

[YellowJacket]

Preach on girl.....

[Data]

Originally posted by prolangtum
Doesnt steroids change this equation though?

Steroids increase protein synthesis and therefore a resistance trainer using steroids will need to consume more protein. However how much weight do you think that the average advanced steroid user will gain on a typical 2-3 month cycle? How much of that weight gain do you think is fat, water, glycogen, possibly even bone mass? Protein is not the single cause responsible for growth. Furthermore, the additional calories consumed by a user should make up for any protein requirements. A typical 200lbs juicer would consume approximately 3000-3500 calories, if 25% of those calories were protein, that would equal 190-220 grams of protein, which would still be 2.1 to 2.4 grams of protein per kilogram of bodyweight, more than the infant I described above who triples their birth weight in a year.

Originally posted by fragmaster3sum
science is science is science and so what? all these scientific facts figures and values come from the same "scientists" that told us that steroids do not build muscles and now tell us well ok maybe they do but site injecting does not work better on the muscle chosen than on the rest of the body... and who now ask the body building community for there facts and figures... ha!! they make me laugh... i bet the world is flat after all

Disputing the scientific methods of the scientific community and then validating the incidental observations of the bodybuilding community is not a strong argument. Furthermore, as far as I am concerned the mainstream bodybuilding community has drawn more false conclusions then right ones. From shaping your muscles to the anabolic effects of HMB. You have to pay attention to the source of your information. People make mistakes, everyone’s not right all the time, but the key to evaluating arguments is establishing the truth in a claim through understanding the facts/basics.

Originally posted by newgirl
It would hold up as true -- put two men with similar backgrounds on a cycle -- one eating the RDA while the other eating the way the standard bber eats. Who would get the most out of their cycle?

If your post was in reference to mine, I apologize I should have been more clear. The RDA’s are a crude yardstick which is why I refer to the DRI’s which are very well researched and updated frequently. I recommend roughly a 50/25/25 split (give or take 5% except on fats) over consuming the suggested intakes. So a 2500 calorie diet would provide around 150-160 grams of protein.

[YellowJacket]

Originally posted by Data
A typical 200lbs juicer would consume approximately 3000-3500 calories, if 25% of those calories were protein, that would equal 190-220 grams of protein, which would still be 2.1 to 2.4 grams of protein per kilogram of bodyweight, more than the infant I described above who triples their birth weight in a year.

You might my friend, but when Im juicing, I eat well over my basal metabolic rate. I dont mind putting on a little bit of fat to pack on some muscle mass.

[Data]

Originally posted by newgirl
Equally, dietations, nutritionists etc. all work from the same printed matter that has not truly been re-tested for years. These are the same ideals that came up with the dreaded food pyramind that suggests a much higher value is found in eating carbs as the basis of the American diet....and do you know what has happened in the 20 years or so since we have heard that low fat, high carb diets are good for you?

Americans got fatter and fatter.

Actually that’s not true, nutrition science is not a mature science like say chemistry, we are still learning a lot. Facts, figures, and information on nutrition is tested on a daily basis by universities, businesses, and other research organizations. Also, if you visit the food court in your local mall how many obese people do you see eating according to the food guide? Very few I would imagine. Although the principles behind the food guide has some questionable influences, its not responsible for obesity in North America!

[Data]

YellowJacket Oh hey I don’t know you, your metabolism, personal preferences, or your individual response to nutrition. You obviously know your body better than I would know your body right? I’m just here to offer my opinion, because that’s all it is.

Edited -> I agree with those who consume excess protein to guarantee that they are getting enough. I understand the logic. I just don't follow it myself since I am a poor student!

[YellowJacket]

Originally posted by Data
YellowJacket Oh hey I don’t know you, your metabolism, personal preferences, or your individual response to nutrition. You obviously know your body better than I would know your body right? I’m just here to offer my opinion, because that’s all it is.

Understandable. My theory is, if Im 200lbs and eat 300lbs and you're 200lbs and think you only need 200lbs, cool.... but high protein diets and bodybuilding go hand and hand.