TweetYep. People are going to hold out there hand and say 'here...'. It's looking like Americans will gladly give it all up. I mean, for a majority of Americans to actually accept what is being put out in front of them and worse than that, want it! The sad truth is so many of them don't even understand what's going on, I hope. It will just take some of them, like you said Klash, 20-40 years to figure it out. That's at the rate it's going now. But I think the dems have realized that America will buy anything they sling at 'em, so long as it's explained a certain way. You know, that "everything should be beautiful and easy and have a big pretty bow on it, hand delivered by the government which will take care of all your needs, so just put this blind fold on and take your number" bullshyt. yeah...no. It is down right scary. What they're pushing is far from freedom, free trade, free market, whatever that term is..laissez fair[sp?]. The democratic agenda is the exact opposite!

Tweetapathetic about something i don't believe in

imho, it's just being smart

i'm not apathetic, i'm not going to base my decision on opinions, if i did that i'd have never done as

when i was in colleg paying my way thru, i noticed most of the folks screwed off while i was studying and working

2-5-10-15 years later when i had a job with health care and all kinds of perks, i thought, hmmmmm, well i worked for it, u folks when we were young didn't

now, i'm not so black and white on alot of issues, i've met due to my job tens of thousands more folks face to face than 98% of your average american

when i was young i thought about me and my family

these days i ponder about all those who i have met, the woman who cleans rooms at the hotel, and has done it for 20 years, the guy who works for the city in the most menial of positions cleaning up the garage and has for 40 years, the young kid fresh out of high school who mow's lawns for joe's lawn service and that is the best he can do due to whatever limitations he has

and these folks work hard, do the right thing, for decades, save try there best to make there families better, and one major health care problem and generations of working hard can get wiped out

you've read my stuff, and in a perfect world we would have zero intervention, cause getting six folks involved where two are the optimum is not good imho, yet, other countries have approached this differently, just like as where it is legal in most countries

i don't know what the right answer is because i have not done the research


if i could enact a law thoug it would be, the government as part of your taxes gets u catastrophic health care coverage, why, make the solution simple, most of us get wiped out not by a broken leg, but by a bad heart or cancer, so don't fix something that is not broke

like i don't recognize the trend

why do trends end????

a major crisis happens

one trend over takes another over time

or a dynamic new ideas changes the game

thus, since i cannot predict the future i don't know which one will happen

so, i deal with the here and now, the reality that i see based on how imho life works

obama, has a chance to be one trend over taking another

i have no idea what the chances are, yet, it's the best one on the board i see right now

on a side note, if you don't know what the present trend is, it's very hard too change it

u think it is the government that repeats this cycle, i don't believe in that at all, it is the few that have power and money who influence the cycle

imho, the trend is power and money

in this day and age there are 1.000's of more area's where power and money have an influence, not because they are bad, but because what that power and money can do when in the hands of folks who are unaware of there own intentions

and it is not like this has not been played out hundred of other times in different times of history

it is the thinking that this time it is different, history doesn't repeat itself yet it often rhymes

why do dominant countries fail thru out history and not last often more than 200 years, ummmmmmmmmmm, money

so in a round about way, imho, it ain't a government problem it's a money probllem

ya can only spend what u don't have for so long

when that happens trends change

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Originally Posted by trip

on a side note, if you don't know what the present trend is, it's very hard too change it

u think it is the government that repeats this cycle, i don't believe in that at all, it is the few that have power and money who influence the cycle

imho, the trend is power and money

in this day and age there are 1.000's of more area's where power and money have an influence, not because they are bad, but because what that power and money can do when in the hands of folks who are unaware of there own intentions

I agree with you, that it is unlikely to change anything if you are unaware that it needs change. Thus apply your belief, that the problem is money and power; instead of government. Now consider, can money and power be a significant problem in a society where only individual rights are protected. Government and corporations get more intertwined the more we attempt to regulate corporations (which requires larger government for oversight) - leading to more corruption which money and power are the incentives. Why would corporations pay lobbyists to promote legislation favorable (bribe) to a particular industry or company if the government only protected individual rights? Plain and simple Government officials are bribed to screw competitors while giving the other company the benefits of the pillaging. The root of the problem is unbridled government; corruption from money and power is a symptom.

TweetOkay Klash,

I'm not disagreeing with you, it is just hard to understand what your point is, I have had to read it and re-read it several times.

My take away, and it is very possible I'm wrong here is that u see government as a type of umpire, and that we should have no umpire, thus, they cannot be influenced.

Or that the government, should only umpire individual players, and that is it.

i also have a difficulty seeing how peace is kept and health and well being is preserved when you have a world with six billion, a nation with 300 million, that is mobile

200 years ago, when 95% of people never ever traveled more than ten miles from there birth home was a different time and place where alot of our present day value systems come from, ie, believes, and out of these believes came laws, while most think this is a trivila issue the only laws that work in society are laws that come from and our by the people as a whole, which is why democracy in other countries have been a disaster because there believes, value systems, and the laws they abide by come from 100's and 100's of decades, not twenty

overall though, unbridled, or non-directional, no morales government is still where i make my stand, money and power can influence it is has no bearing of what it stands for and why

overall though i think we are closer than how it is coming out, when things go all too hell the good part is there is a solution, the constitution, one day when things are bad they will drag it out and go, damned us, the answers where all here the whole time, shame on us for not reading the directions right, and having the discipline to follow them

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Originally Posted by Deno

I say anyone but Bush. I would love if Obama is our next president. Me no likey Republicans...sorry... When Kerry ran for president people voted for Bush... the same guy who few years after he got elected and re-elected ****ed up our country. Great voters man.

You do know that Bush cant run for president again right?

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Originally Posted by Klash

I agree with you, that it is unlikely to change anything if you are unaware that it needs change. Thus apply your belief, that the problem is money and power; instead of government. Now consider, can money and power be a significant problem in a society where only individual rights are protected. Government and corporations get more intertwined the more we attempt to regulate corporations (which requires larger government for oversight) - leading to more corruption which money and power are the incentives. Why would corporations pay lobbyists to promote legislation favorable (bribe) to a particular industry or company if the government only protected individual rights? Plain and simple Government officials are bribed to screw competitors while giving the other company the benefits of the pillaging. The root of the problem is unbridled government; corruption from money and power is a symptom.

Originally Posted by trip

Okay Klash,

I'm not disagreeing with you, it is just hard to understand what your point is, I have had to read it and re-read it several times.

The government regulation is the corruption. All it is is a paycheck to the government. Money and power isn't corrupt. Obama's Patriot Corporation Act is corruption.

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Originally Posted by trip

Okay Klash,

I'm not disagreeing with you, it is just hard to understand what your point is, I have had to read it and re-read it several times.

My take away, and it is very possible I'm wrong here is that u see government as a type of umpire, and that we should have no umpire, thus, they cannot be influenced.

Or that the government, should only umpire individual players, and that is it.

i also have a difficulty seeing how peace is kept and health and well being is preserved when you have a world with six billion, a nation with 300 million, that is mobile

I have to do the same - I have a hard time understanding your posts but what I can understand, I disagree with. I think our core beliefs are so different it is hard for me to see what your referring to and visa versa for you.

I see governments sole objective as to protect individual freedom, i.e. civil courts to provide recourse for civilians that feel they have been wronged, criminal courts to try those that have been accused of infringing others freedoms and a military to protect our sovereignty.

Healthcare is not a right; and to claim it is implies those who offer it have rights that are subordinate to those who claim to "need" the service. Same with all laws that are not protecting individual freedom but imposing some "morality" law on individuals.