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Originally Posted by JohnnyB

okay but you still didn't answer the question or acknowledge that science was wrong about the earth being flat and the Bible being right that it is round.

Logic can not be wrong, only man. See next response.

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

What about other religions being wrong about the earth, that it not carried on the back(s) of anything but it hangs in space. How could the Bible be so accurate about that, if there was no way for men to look at the earth?

"Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who ma**ed off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone?" (Job 38:4-6)
"He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved." (Psalm 104:5)
"He shakes the earth from its place and makes it pillars tremble." (Job 9:6)
"For the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and he set the world upon them." (1 Samuel 2:8)
"The tree grew large and strong and its top touched the sky; it was visible to the ends of the earth." (Daniel 4:11)
"The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved." (Psalm 93:1)
". . . the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken." (Matthew 24:29)

the bible does not support a sole theory of the world being a circle. A matter of fact it supports so many theories it had to be right once.

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Oh yes the myth about Pontius Pilate, many critics said that the Bible was wrong that no such person live, yet archeology proved them wrong. I know just another conspiracy, right?

Do you not think if man claims they have the "word of god". They could easily prove it. If god (if there is one) decided to reveal himself - do you not think he could totaly convince all of us of his existence. This is a supernatural being that supposedly created the universe and the bible is the best he could do.

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Since this thread is about evolution being bunk, remember it's only a therory. Darwin never know about DNA or RNA or the way a cell was formed, which if it's looked at with an honest open view, no one would still believe in it. Dr Dean Kenyon the co-athour of Biochemical Predestination a best seller in evolutionary circles of teaching. Has said his book was bunk and there is no way that evolution is scientific but it is subjective at best. It boils down to where did the information in the DNA cell come form. If you think it happened ove billions of year or whtever. That's a logical as finding a computer with all it's programs and say look what happened in billions of years. Everyone knows it was manufactured and programed by an intelligent being. The same reasoning applies to the DNA cell.

What is Dr. Dean Kenyon's hypothesis on 'human origins'?

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Originally Posted by NewCreation

Hey Klash!

I was reading one of your responses to JohnnyB, and you wrote, I'm curious: Was there a time in your life when you did believe in God, or have you always felt the way you do? Was it something you saw somebody do, was there maybe a hypocrite in the church you went to that turned you off?

I was taught about Jesus from before I could remember. I remember distinctly when I was taught about the afterlife and what happens to those that don't believe the right way.
I was believing the "right way" right after my kindergarten teacher told me of this. I went home terrified of going to hell and my parents confirmed what she told me. I was baptized the next week. As I got older, I would think: if god is omnipotent he knows I don't love him but that I just fear hell. No matter how hard I tried to convince myself, I couldn't understand how I could have more compassion for people than a god that created us. I despised this god and finally came to the conclusion I would rather be in hell at opposition to this god than serve him and be in heaven. I had researched a number of religions and observed the commonality of how they control their masses with fear of the unknown, the promotion of guilt for any that have selfish desires (promoting altruism), and the unrealistic authoritative standards to make us aware of our "imperfections". Christianity is nothing but a cult that locks people in their own minds, fearful to look away.

I have this conversation with lots of christians and most the time they are what I call "better safe than sorry" christians. they don't know what to believe but they know they believe in jesus because they fear an eternity of hell.

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Originally Posted by JohnnyB

So how does he come to a conclusion that there is a God if he doesn't believe the Bible? What is his proof?

His existence is probably enough for him but I'm just assuming.

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Originally Posted by Klash

Logic can not be wrong, only man. See next response.




"Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who ma**ed off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone?" (Job 38:4-6)
"He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved." (Psalm 104:5)
"He shakes the earth from its place and makes it pillars tremble." (Job 9:6)
"For the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and he set the world upon them." (1 Samuel 2:8)
"The tree grew large and strong and its top touched the sky; it was visible to the ends of the earth." (Daniel 4:11)
"The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved." (Psalm 93:1)
". . . the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken." (Matthew 24:29)

the bible does not support a sole theory of the world being a circle. A matter of fact it supports so many theories it had to be right once.




Do you not think if man claims they have the "word of god". They could easily prove it. If god (if there is one) decided to reveal himself - do you not think he could totaly convince all of us of his existence. This is a supernatural being that supposedly created the universe and the bible is the best he could do.




What is Dr. Dean Kenyon's hypothesis on 'human origins'?

you forgot

Revelation 7:1 "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree."

These are figures of speech, you know like the one we use "he's a Lady killer" meaning he has or is with lots of women or "I'd go to the ends of the earth". We know that doesn't mean that there is an end or ends of the earth, but that they would go anywhere to obtain whatever it is they want. But 700 years from now if someone read that with no knowledge of our euphemisms they would think the person is saying that the person spoken of, killed women, which wouldn't be true. figures of speech have been used through out the history of man.

Bro you have a bunch of different situation there but we'll go with it.

Job 38:4-6, is the Lord speaking to Job in terms he could understand, do you really think if He started to tell Job how He exactly created the world Job would of understood.

Psalm 104:5, look at the Hebrew word for foundations, mâkôn meaning "properly a fixture, that is, a basis; generally a place, especially as an abode: - foundation, habitation, (dwelling-, settled) place."

Now lets look at the word moved in the Hebrew, môṭ "A primitive root; to waver; by implication to slip, shake, fall: - be carried, cast, be out of course, be fallen in decay, X exceedingly, fall (-ing down), be (re-) moved, be ready shake, slide, slip."
from the Strong's dictionary

Job 9:6 shakes, râgaz "A primitive root; to quiver (with any violent emotion, especially anger or fear): - be afraid, stand in awe, disquiet, fall out, fret, move, provoke, quake, rage, shake, tremble, trouble, be wroth."

You get the idea here the earth is in awe of God to the core.

1 Samuel 2:8 A womens pray as she uses human terms to describe the awesomeness of God.

Daniel 4:11 A man describing something he seen in a vision and used the best words he could think of to describe it.

Matthew 24:29 Prophetic words that haven't happened yet.

Bro you seem like you've read parts of the Bible, Jesus came to reveal God, God in human flesh. But the religious people of the day still did see it or believe it, the same would happen today. People that say "if God is real let Him come down and I'll believe" not true He already did and they didn't believe. What I've noticed about most people that have this attitude is they don't really want an answer or proof because they really don't care if there is a God. Then some get into the mode of trying to proof He doesn't exist to make themselves feel better, not truly looking into the evidence for themselves. Because the ones that have truly looked into it with an open mind have come to know that it's true, Simon Greenleaf a professor at Harvard law. He looked into the resurrection of Christ from as evidence in a court of law and found all the evidence to be true, that would stand up in a court of law. Josh McDowell being another, set out to shut all the Christians up and prove them wrong, instead he found out that from the original manuscripts you could translate the New testament to 99.5% accuracy. You can read what he came up with in a Book call "Evidence that demands a verdict"

People that get in the defensive mode about the Bible or God have always puzzled me, because if something doesn't exsist why even take the time to disprove it? There's nothing to disprove. I think UFO's are none exsistant but I don't go around trying to prove they don't, it would be a waste of my time, yet there are many people the sware they exsist, they can't prove it but they still believe. You don't running around the country trying to prove they don't exsist.

I believe the real reason people try to disprove the Bible is because it deals with the inter man. It says if you lie, cheat or look at a women in lust (there's more) you'll be punished for it and who doesn't do those things at one time or another. Look at the 10 comandments, try to live by them and you'll see how inadequate we are. So people say they are out dated but if someone was to kill a family memeber they would they not agree that the comand "You shall not kill" would be a good one to follow. How many married couples would agree "You shall not commit adultry" is a good command when thier spouse cheats on them.

Dr Dean Kenyan say that man had an intelligent designer and is not a product of unforeseen chance. You can see it for yourself on DVD "Unlocking the mysteries of life" He and other scientists, philosophers, bio-chemists and mathematician(s) are in this DVD. They are not pastors or theologians, they all teach at different Universities like Berkly, Baylor and others I can't remember all of them right now.

The mathematician say the possibility for one basic amino acid to form by chance is impossible.

I have to say Klash you are a good guy to have this discussion with, the last guy I talked to like this would only made accusations but never gave me anything to make the diccussion rational. He had lots of anger and was dealing with his sexuality. He tried to make light of it but you could tell he was as comfortable with as he would like everyone to believe.

JohnnyB

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Originally Posted by JohnnyB

These are figures of speech, you know like the one we use "he's a Lady killer" meaning he has or is with lots of women or "I'd go to the ends of the earth". We know that doesn't mean that there is an end or ends of the earth, but that they would go anywhere to obtain whatever it is they want. But 700 years from now if someone read that with no knowledge of our euphemisms they would think the person is saying that the person spoken of, killed women, which wouldn't be true. figures of speech have been used through out the history of man.

How about this one by the same author. Which one is meant to be literal and which is not?

And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. Isaiah 11:12

in comparison too:

Isaiah 40:22 "It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in."

So if you take it literally, I think the earth sounds more like a dinner plate with heaven's curtain making a tent around it! Don't you? So "literally" Isaiah is wrong, either way you go.

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Bro you seem like you've read parts of the Bible, Jesus came to reveal God, God in human flesh. But the religious people of the day still did see it or believe it, the same would happen today. People that say "if God is real let Him come down and I'll believe" not true He already did and they didn't believe. What I've noticed about most people that have this attitude is they don't really want an answer or proof because they really don't care if there is a God. Then some get into the mode of trying to proof He doesn't exist to make themselves feel better, not truly looking into the evidence for themselves. Because the ones that have truly looked into it with an open mind have come to know that it's true, Simon Greenleaf a professor at Harvard law. He looked into the resurrection of Christ from as evidence in a court of law and found all the evidence to be true, that would stand up in a court of law. Josh McDowell being another, set out to shut all the Christians up and prove them wrong, instead he found out that from the original manuscripts you could translate the New testament to 99.5% accuracy. You can read what he came up with in a Book call "Evidence that demands a verdict"

I have read "Evidence that demands verdict". Everyone I know is a christian, they give me christian literature all the time hoping to save me. I read and write in the margins of unsubstantiated claims the author makes and give it back to them. "Evidence that demands verdict" is nothing but circular reasoning.

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

People that get in the defensive mode about the Bible or God have always puzzled me, because if something doesn't exsist why even take the time to disprove it? There's nothing to disprove. I think UFO's are none exsistant but I don't go around trying to prove they don't, it would be a waste of my time, yet there are many people the sware they exsist, they can't prove it but they still believe. You don't running around the country trying to prove they don't exsist.

I believe the real reason people try to disprove the Bible is because it deals with the inter man. It says if you lie, cheat or look at a women in lust (there's more) you'll be punished for it and who doesn't do those things at one time or another. Look at the 10 comandments, try to live by them and you'll see how inadequate we are. So people say they are out dated but if someone was to kill a family memeber they would they not agree that the comand "You shall not kill" would be a good one to follow. How many married couples would agree "You shall not commit adultry" is a good command when thier spouse cheats on them.

I don't think a group of people as large and as organized as christians should go uncontested. Christianity has penetrated deep into our government and just as socialism has saturated our republic so can religion. The UFO followers are not as big a threat to my liberty as the beliefs you hold.

Take yourself away from your beliefs just for a second. Pretend you don't believe in god. Now imagine facing a nation where the majority don't believe as you do and this majority is trying to impose their views of morality on all citizens. This majority is well financed and well organized and they fight constantly to get their religious foot in the door. Now can you see why people fight you, the bible and your cult.

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

The mathematician say the possibility for one basic amino acid to form by chance is impossible.

See this is a prime example of perception:
Logic: mathematician does not have all variables and data involved.
Faith: Supernatural entity must have been involved

It is not easy going through life without a finality. Everyone desires an absolute answer and that is why there are so many answers based on faith. Atheism is a faith there is no god but it is an absolute. All religions have the same foundation as the other, faith.

Faith has lead us to the dark ages, the witch trials, even today we are battling those who have faith in Allah.
Reason and Logic lead us to knowledge and understanding.

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I have to say Klash you are a good guy to have this discussion with, the last guy I talked to like this would only made accusations but never gave me anything to make the diccussion rational. He had lots of anger and was dealing with his sexuality. He tried to make light of it but you could tell he was as comfortable with as he would like everyone to believe.

Yeah, you and New Creation both have been respectful debaters. It is unusual for the arguments to go this far without someone flaming.

TweetHey Klash!

I went home terrified of going to hell and my parents confirmed what she told me. I was baptized the next week. As I got older, I would think: if god is omnipotent he knows I don't love him but that I just fear hell. No matter how hard I tried to convince myself, I couldn't understand how I could have more compassion for people than a god that created us.

This is the problem I have with what I call "fire and brimstone" preachers. The ones who preach fear. I have been blessed, since I came to Christ, to have a preacher who focuses on the mercy of God. You see, in order for God to be just, He must punish those who break His law (just as any judge is bound to do). But, too many preachers focus simply on judgment, doing a great disservice to their flock. But, here is the mercy of God: "When the fullnes of time was come, God sent His Son...to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons." (Galatians 4:4)
We can't possibly love others more than God loves us. I can tell from your post that you don't believe this is so. But think about it: When He could have left us all in condemnation, He came down and suffered for us. And when Christ returns, time is no more, and He brings His church home, there will be no more suffering (Revelations 7:16-17 "They shall hunger no more, neither shall they thirst...for God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.") and, more importantly, there will be no more sin ("...an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you." I Peter 1:4)

and the unrealistic authoritative standards to make us aware of our "imperfections".

The Law that God gave to Moses was, indeed, intended to show us how imperfect we really are. And, true, no mere man ever could. Now, when Christ came, He did not do away with the Law, but He fulfilled the Law for us. He became sin for us (II Corinthians 5:21), so we, in these bodies, don't necessarily have to be "perfect". We can screw up, and we are going to. We'll do things, say things, think things we shouldn't, but God knows that. That's why, if we have Christ as our Savior, "There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus...For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:1-2)

Christianity is nothing but a cult that locks people in their own minds, fearful to look away.

This is one difference between Christianity and some other religions. As Luke wrote of the Bereans in the Book of Acts: "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica...for they searched the scriptures daily, whether these things were so." No matter where you may look, there is only one Truth. That truth is named Jesus Christ. God bless you, Klash.

NC

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Originally Posted by NewCreation

Hey Klash!
This is the problem I have with what I call "fire and brimstone" preachers. The ones who preach fear. I have been blessed, since I came to Christ, to have a preacher who focuses on the mercy of God. You see, in order for God to be just, He must punish those who break His law (just as any judge is bound to do). But, too many preachers focus simply on judgment, doing a great disservice to their flock. But, here is the mercy of God: "When the fullnes of time was come, God sent His Son...to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons." (Galatians 4:4)

Whether your preacher focuses on mercy, love or whatever, "fire and brimstone" is at the core of the religion. It is what christians are avoiding by their beleif that Jesus was the son of god. It is the reason for the new testament, it is the reason for the rapture. Heaven sounds nice but most of us have done without mansions and gold roads and we could do without it in the next world, so thats not a good selling point for the religion but make the alternative an eternity in a lake of fire with billions of suffering souls, nashing and tearing each others skin and now you have a really strong selling point.

Eternity of punishment - No one person deserves an eternity of punishment no matter how much they "sinned" or no matter what their fault was during a life of 100 years. That is just absurd. It reminds me when I was a kid argueing over who could count the highest. I would hope no god would do that, it is rediculous.

God, when meeting Klash:"You didn't believe that Jesus was my only begotten son and died for your sins. Your going to burn for eternity."

Originally Posted by NewCreation

This is one difference between Christianity and some other religions. As Luke wrote of the Bereans in the Book of Acts: "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica...for they searched the scriptures daily, whether these things were so." No matter where you may look, there is only one Truth. That truth is named Jesus Christ. God bless you, Klash.

NC

You know that your god will not bess me but torture me or do you believe that god can save those he wants to save?

TweetIgnorance is Bliss! That's all I have to say.

TweetHey Klash!

Many people, like yourself, think that God is just waiting to send souls to hell. First of all, it's not God's fault that we sin. Our sins are the result of the sinful nature we inherited from Adam. God gave Adam that choice, he chose disobedience. That's why we humans are where we are today, faced with the choice of accepting or rejecting God's free gift of salvation. We can repent from our sins, worship the God who created us, and believe in the Son He saent to remove our sins. Or, we can reject God, and His Son, and, as you said, hear these words: "You didn't believe that Jesus was my only begotten son and died for your sins. Your going to burn for eternity." It's not a message a lot of people (including many in the church) want to hear.

Consider this: if there were no laws against things like murder or robbery, where would we be today? If the human race even existed, what kind of a twisted world would it be? Furthermore, as many times as it actually does happen, how many more times have some people been so mad that they actually could kill somebody? But why don't they? Because we have laws against it. Are these laws meant only to punish? No. They are guidelines for how a civilized society should act. But, when we do kill someone in cold blood, we go to jail (in a perfect world, anyway). Now, how does this relate to God? God gave to Moses a set of laws. These laws, as Paul wrote, were to be a "schoolmaster, to bring us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith"(Galatians 3:24). They were meant to spell out punishments for wrongful behavior, yes. But more so, they were meant to show us how we should live, and act towards one another ("For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."--Galatians 5:14). Then once Christ came, and paid the penalty we owe, "...we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:25-26).

do you believe that god can save those he wants to save?

I'm not going to get into the whole election vs. freewill thing, heck, even I don't understand it all

Klash, I know it's hard to imagine billions of people suffering an eternity in Hell. But that's why we as Christians are to go into all the world and tell people about Christ, so they will know God loves them and wants them to be with Him. And that's why I'm telling you, so that you'll know the truth. God will bless you, if you let Him.

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Originally Posted by NewCreation

Hey Klash!

Many people, like yourself, think that God is just waiting to send souls to hell. First of all, it's not God's fault that we sin.

We are imperfect men, we are fundamentally flawed - we live in sin, just by existing. Says who? God (or so says his book)
Then it is proclaimed we have free will. Yet if we don't do as god says we will suffer for eternity. Let me ask you this: if someone put a gun to your head and told you to give them your money, would you consider that free will? Of course you have the free will to decide if you want your brains blown out but that is the only decision you have and if your decision is to survive or die you don't have a decision to make but an action that is forced. Similarly with god, you can decide if you want to suffer for eternity, but that is not a decision, that is force. You are acting as if hell is a consequence to an action that is out of your gods hands but your god is what created that consequence and he is also the god that created the force, he is also the one that created hell.

Don't you see, that if your god exist we are all screwed. Some will be in hell and the others will be in slavery.

Originally Posted by NewCreation

Our sins are the result of the sinful nature we inherited from Adam. God gave Adam that choice, he chose disobedience. That's why we humans are where we are today, faced with the choice of accepting or rejecting God's free gift of salvation. We can repent from our sins, worship the God who created us, and believe in the Son He saent to remove our sins. Or, we can reject God, and His Son, and, as you said, hear these words: "You didn't believe that Jesus was my only begotten son and died for your sins. Your going to burn for eternity." It's not a message a lot of people (including many in the church) want to hear.

The only rationalization that you have for the condemnation of humanity by your god is that Adam disobeyed god in the beginning. Lets say you have 10 children. Would you punish the nine youngest just because your eldest had to be sent to military school because he choose to disobey you. Noone in their right mind would act like this, yet you say your omnipotent god that created the universe, whose mind is not limited like ours, is doing this not to just 9 undeserving souls but billions.

Originally Posted by NewCreation

I'm not going to get into the whole election vs. freewill thing, heck, even I don't understand it all

The reason christians don't like this conversation is: it is easily observed and argued that the christian god offers a coerced choice, which would not be best defined as freewill. The alternative to this belief is: god is willingly creating souls that he will condemn to hell for eternity - which gives him the appearance of an asshole and justifiably so. It is a lose/lose argument.

Originally Posted by NewCreation

Klash, I know it's hard to imagine billions of people suffering an eternity in Hell. But that's why we as Christians are to go into all the world and tell people about Christ, so they will know God loves them and wants them to be with Him. And that's why I'm telling you, so that you'll know the truth. God will bless you, if you let Him.

I know the truth and so do you!

"To arrive at a contradiction is to confess an error in one's thinking; to maintain a contradiction is to abdicate one's mind and to evict oneself from the realm of reality." -Ayn Rand

TweetWow I thought for sure you understood what a figure of speech was but I was wrong. It's hard to discuss any type of interpretation if a person doesn't understand the basics of interpretation of a language. I'm sure when someone says "that's cool" you don't touch it to see if it is or not but you understand what is being said. So you're not looking for an answer or evidence because you are going on your circular evidence, so futher discussion at this time is pointless.

JohnnyB

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Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Wow I thought for sure you understood what a figure of speech was but I was wrong. It's hard to discuss any type of interpretation if a person doesn't understand the basics of interpretation of a language. I'm sure when someone says "that's cool" you don't touch it to see if it is or not but you understand what is being said. So you're not looking for an answer or evidence because you are going on your circular evidence, so futher discussion at this time is pointless.

JohnnyB

Is it me failing to see a cone (tent) as a "figure of speech" to describe a globe or is it you failing to see the facts, to protect your comprehensive view of life.
It is scary to glimpse logic when it has always been portrayed as turning on god, yet there it is.

Logic and reason is truth or
logic and reason is evil.

Isaiah 40:22 "It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in."

it was a nice discussion
good luck

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