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Originally Posted by NewCreation

What we call logic is nothing more than what we human beings can understand in our own minds. These minds are very limited. But we do know this: In the same way we see a Pepsi can, and know that somebody made it, it only stands to reason that since we live in a universe that exists, someone must have created it. Agreed? Peace!

Mike Murrdock put it like this, and it makes sense to me. A book is the proof of an author, a song is the proof of a composer and creation is the proof of a creator.

TweetWell I didn't read the entire thread but find it interesting. Personally I'm a deist from what I have come to believe. I believe in evolution but I don't believe we were made from nothing I think a higher power created us. I also saw that t-man said that God only intended for there to be one interpretation of each script if that's the case how can you prove that your believed interpretations is the right one. I mean that's why there are so many different churches because of the different interpretations. Also adapting to your surroundsings can be evolving; bugs are a perfect example you can put them in a different surround they will change colors over years and shapes of their wings and body to fit the surrounding areas to match surrounding plants, it's been documented unfortunately I'd have to dig for the info to back that, that's just something I remember from a religion class I took in college. Evolution doesn't mean you have to change to a completely different orginism as far as I know. I didn't want to argue I just wanted to put my beliefs out there, I respect all your different points of view when I get the time I'll read through the entire thread.

TweetActually, evolution is just that, the changing of one species to another. What you are talking about is adaptation. Which is very common. Lighter thicker skin is more prominant as you further away from the equater and thinner darker skin is more prominant as you get closer to the equator. This is not evolution because they are still humans but they have adapted physically to respond better to the environment. I'm not trying to argue either but the reason there are so many different churches is due to man's misrepresentation of the Bible. If I ask you and 99 other people to read a book and then ask you what the first chapter said to you there would be several different interpretations. Then if I brought the author of the book in and asked him or her what the meaning of the first chapet was, they would give you one meaning. Some people would get it and some wouldn't. The truth is there are a lot of people teaching a false gospel. I have been through several different types of Christianity and I have found false teachings in each. If I can go to scripture and disprove a demoninations teachings then I know they aren't teaching a truthful gospel. There are many beliefs out there based on different parts of scripture but they are taken out of context. For instance if you take something from John, then from Hebrews, then from Genisis and then from Acts and you teach it as one you are taking it out of context. There are many modern beliefs based on these book jumping stories that are taken out of context. It's truely sad because us as students depend on our leaders, teachers and mentors to teach us properly.

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Originally Posted by jcvaughn26

Well I didn't read the entire thread but find it interesting. Personally I'm a deist from what I have come to believe. I believe in evolution but I don't believe we were made from nothing I think a higher power created us. I also saw that t-man said that God only intended for there to be one interpretation of each script if that's the case how can you prove that your believed interpretations is the right one. I mean that's why there are so many different churches because of the different interpretations. Also adapting to your surroundsings can be evolving; bugs are a perfect example you can put them in a different surround they will change colors over years and shapes of their wings and body to fit the surrounding areas to match surrounding plants, it's been documented unfortunately I'd have to dig for the info to back that, that's just something I remember from a religion class I took in college. Evolution doesn't mean you have to change to a completely different orginism as far as I know. I didn't want to argue I just wanted to put my beliefs out there, I respect all your different points of view when I get the time I'll read through the entire thread.

How do you come to the conclusion that God created by evolution? Which to me are contradicting one another.

Your statement about evolution from your regilon class isn't what evolutionist teach. The whole idea of God starting evolution was not Darwins intent, it was to do away with God.

I see the Bible being very clear as to the amount of days it took for creation to be created, 6 days, not millions or billions of years. Read the text it's very clear.

JohnnyB

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Originally Posted by JohnnyB

How do you come to the conclusion that God created by evolution? Which to me are contradicting one another.

Your statement about evolution from your regilon class isn't what evolutionist teach. The whole idea of God starting evolution was not Darwins intent, it was to do away with God.

I see the Bible being very clear as to the amount of days it took for creation to be created, 6 days, not millions or billions of years. Read the text it's very clear.

JohnnyB

To further add to Johnny B. You either believe the Bible or you don't, there is no middle ground. After God created the world, animals and man he rested on the sabath and said "it is very good". "Very good", he said. Now, it wasn't until Adam sinned that death entered into the world. So, if you are a true believer and you believe that death did not enter into the world until Adam sinned, how can evolution be true? Wouldn't the fact that all those animals dying over all those billions of years call God a lier if death didn't enter the world until Adam sinned. God cursed "all" that lived with death when Adam sinned.

Either God lied or Evolution is a lie, but both can't be truth. I dont' know about you, but I sure as hell don't want to stand before God and be judged for following foolish men with nothing more than theories. Let's face it, there is no physical proof that we evolved because there is no physical link between man and monkey. Of course, man will say "we are only one chromisome different from a monkey", yea, and we are only one chormisome different from a frog too.

TweetHey Klash!!

assumption that life is a test to see where you will spend eternity - in hell or in heaven serving your master.

Actually, that's not simply an assumption. We have about 70 years (give or take) to make a decision to follow Christ (and spend eternity in heaven) or reject Him (and spend an unending, miserable eternity seperated from Him in a very literal place called Hell). And it's not so much trying to do enough good things to get there. It is simply a turning away from sin (stealing, murder, hatred, lust, adultery, etc) and trusting Christ to be your Savior. "By grace are ye saved through faith[there's that word again ] and that is not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, and not of works[good deeds], lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9) The good works come about as a result of our salvation.

A muslims faith versus a christians faith for example. They both require faith but Allah or Jesus one will perform ethnic cleansing on the non-believers. Some faith is obviously not as good as others.

Well, Allah can't really do anything, seeing as how he doens't even exist. A guy named Mohammed based "Allah" on an ancient Middle Eastern moon god, in order to gain a following of the merchants passing through Arabia. But you are correct in saying that there will be a "cleansing" when Jesus returns. "When He descends with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and the trumpet of God" (I Thessalonians 4:16) and removes His church from this world, and translates us into His kingdom. I pray that you will be among those He takes.

As far as comparing science books to the bible, there is a commonality - they were both written by biased men

My friend, if you ever read the books of Jeremiah, Isaiah, or some of the other prophets of God, and saw how they suffered and were rejected, I doubt you could believe they had any reason for speaking other than the fact that they were declaring the word of God.

if the men that wrote "Custers last stand" told me Custer turned water into wine, raised the dead, walked on water and was the son of god, it would make it easy for me to disregard the whole story.

"But these are writen, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Chrsit, the Son of God; and that believeing ye might have life through His name."(John 20:31)

All of the remaining 11 apostles (after Judas hung himself) were martyred, except for the apostle John. (examples: James was beheaded, Peter was crucified upside down) And they did try to kill him, but he survived, and was the only apostle to die of natural causes, t about the age of 100. I point this out to bring you to this question: How much would you suffer through to keep alive something you knew wasn't true? In other words, how much would you suffer for a lie?

So when one soul disobeyed, this omnipotent being decided to punish billions of souls.

More like, "as by one man sin entered the world, and death through sin."(Romans 5:12)

Man after the second coming you better hope that one person doesn't f*** up in heaven or you guys might just have to start all over

Actually, after the second coming, there will be no more sin, so we won't have to worry about it.

Human terms? How else could you put it?

I meant in just kinda everyday terms. sorry.

So while he was creating souls he created some to experince torture for eternity, just for the hell of it. Nice guy!

Well, He could have left us all dead in our sins, and sent every single one of us to Hell. But He did make a way for mankind to be reconciled to Him, through the cross of Christ.

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Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Klash you are confusing faith with fate, faith is only as good as what you put it in, you can have faith that the world is flat (which was the scientific belief at one time) but it wouldn't make it true. While science was saying the world was flat, the Bible said it was round Isaiah 40:22 "It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in." So we have one case of the Bible being right and science being wrong. Science for many years up until the 50's thought the cell was protoplasm but with the invention of a more powerful microscope they discover DNA and RNA, another case that they were wrong.

JohnnyB, I am confusing nothing! My question of FAITH, is that it is the commonality of religions. Using your own description of faith "being only as good as what you put it in" could be used for all arguments where the goal is to convert non-believers. Muslims, Jews, Buddhist or whoever wishing to convert anyone could use the same argument.
Now using your argument:
"The Bible was written over 1500 years on three different continents by 39 different authors, which most never meet each other, yet it has one unified message." (we will assume this is correct, laying aside what I consider an inaccurate "unified message" statement ) You are trying to reason that a compilation of works form 39 different authors over a 1500 year span could not be uniform without supernatural intervention and thus you are coming to the conclusion that it must be "the word of god".

I on the other hand believe that men are capable of deciphering what message that they want to portray, thus compiling a book they would call the bible. There have also been independent studies of technologies, disease and medicine from men who never met each other but came to the same conclusions.

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

As far as different religions go, there validity is only are as good as there writings. I like the way you dodged the statement New Creation made in answer to your "council of men" statement. Which is typical of people that want to bash the Bible, once there charges is debunked they bring come up with more misguided arguments, it's usually from some professor that they were indoctrinated by or a group that make charges with no investigation.

You are correct JohhnyB, I was indoctrinated but it was not by who you claim. I was raised southern Baptist and was educated through a private christian school. I know the religion very well and like most religions it is written to exploit mankinds ignorance with fear. What man would not say I believe in this man if it would save him an eternity of suffering. I didn't dodge NC's question I was expressing that the authors of the Bible have no crediblility and if a book were put together today of the same stories and claimed to be non-fiction, it would be accepted for what it's worth - a laugh.

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Your faith is only as good as what you place it in, I place my faith in the Bible as the Word of God. It seems you place you faith in the council of men or your own understanding.

You place your faith in a book that you have been told was the "word of god". This book's stories are inconsistent with reality and at best could be called metaphors or myths. I use information from other men but if it is unsubstantiated, I will definately keep that in mind and definately will not bet my life on it.

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Originally Posted by NewCreation

Hey Klash!!


Actually, that's not simply an assumption. We have about 70 years (give or take) to make a decision to follow Christ (and spend eternity in heaven) or reject Him (and spend an unending, miserable eternity seperated from Him in a very literal place called Hell). And it's not so much trying to do enough good things to get there. It is simply a turning away from sin (stealing, murder, hatred, lust, adultery, etc) and trusting Christ to be your Savior. "By grace are ye saved through faith[there's that word again ] and that is not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, and not of works[good deeds], lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9) The good works come about as a result of our salvation..

Let me try to articulate myself better. Religions destroy the gift of life with the proclamation that life is a test that must be passed not to suffer. The curiosity of our intelligence origins is undermined by the threat of an authoritative god.

Originally Posted by NewCreation

Well, Allah can't really do anything, seeing as how he doens't even exist. A guy named Mohammed based "Allah" on an ancient Middle Eastern moon god, in order to gain a following of the merchants passing through Arabia. But you are correct in saying that there will be a "cleansing" when Jesus returns. "When He descends with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and the trumpet of God" (I Thessalonians 4:16) and removes His church from this world, and translates us into His kingdom. I pray that you will be among those He takes..

Just as christianity was influenced by Zoroastrian's and Essenes.

Originally Posted by NewCreation

My friend, if you ever read the books of Jeremiah, Isaiah, or some of the other prophets of God, and saw how they suffered and were rejected, I doubt you could believe they had any reason for speaking other than the fact that they were declaring the word of God.

All of the remaining 11 apostles (after Judas hung himself) were martyred, except for the apostle John. (examples: James was beheaded, Peter was crucified upside down) And they did try to kill him, but he survived, and was the only apostle to die of natural causes, t about the age of 100. I point this out to bring you to this question: How much would you suffer through to keep alive something you knew wasn't true? In other words, how much would you suffer for a lie?

1)Your taking the word as fact. A word where a man survives in a whale for 3 days, a woman turns into a pillar of salt and on and on and on. 2.)Many men have suffered from oppression. e.g. You do not agree with the Jews, you think they are incorrect in their faith based beliefs yet they suffered very much to believe as they wish.

Originally Posted by NewCreation

More like, "as by one man sin entered the world, and death through sin."(Romans 5:12) Actually, after the second coming, there will be no more sin, so we won't have to worry about it.

I wouldn't be so sure! It happened once and if sin is absent in the afterlife do you still have freewill and if not is that heaven?

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Originally Posted by JohnnyB

How do you come to the conclusion that God created by evolution? Which to me are contradicting one another.

Your statement about evolution from your regilon class isn't what evolutionist teach. The whole idea of God starting evolution was not Darwins intent, it was to do away with God.

I see the Bible being very clear as to the amount of days it took for creation to be created, 6 days, not millions or billions of years. Read the text it's very clear.

JohnnyB

JohnnyB,
jcvaughn26 said he was a deist, so he doesn't believe in the revelation of god or that he (god) even intervenes in his creation once it was set into play at the moment of the big bang. The bible would not hold much weight with a deist so the fact you find it clear does not mean anything to jcvaughn26.

jcvaughn26 sorry to speak for you but I'm off work today!

Tweet[QUOTE=Klash]Let me try to articulate myself better. Religions destroy the gift of life with the proclamation that life is a test that must be passed not to suffer. The curiosity of our intelligence origins is undermined by the threat of an authoritative god.[QUOTE]

How so? What would you do different if you could do anything you want and know you could get away with it?
Personally, I have no desire to murder, steal or sleep with another man's wife and I don't know why, but I get the impression that you wouldn't either. So, what have we really lost?

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Originally Posted by DragonRider

How so? What would you do different if you could do anything you want and know you could get away with it?
Personally, I have no desire to murder, steal or sleep with another man's wife and I don't know why, but I get the impression that you wouldn't either. So, what have we really lost?

I don't know who said this (paraphrasing): "Nothing has changed but my perception, everything has changed"

Everyone compiles a philosophical view of life (consciously or subconsciously) which creates a perspective they view the world through.

Believing life is nothing but a test, a place to avoid hell and serve an authoritative god will gray the beauty of life.

Just as someone that believes in reincarnation would not experience urgency in life as someone that didn't believe in the afterlife at all.

Just as the muslims that martyr themselves feel their actions will be compensated in the afterlife.

Everyones comprehensive view of life, affects the way they see it.

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Originally Posted by Klash

JohnnyB, I am confusing nothing! My question of FAITH, is that it is the commonality of religions. Using your own description of faith "being only as good as what you put it in" could be used for all arguments where the goal is to convert non-believers. Muslims, Jews, Buddhist or whoever wishing to convert anyone could use the same argument.
Now using your argument:
"The Bible was written over 1500 years on three different continents by 39 different authors, which most never meet each other, yet it has one unified message." (we will assume this is correct, laying aside what I consider an inaccurate "unified message" statement ) You are trying to reason that a compilation of works form 39 different authors over a 1500 year span could not be uniform without supernatural intervention and thus you are coming to the conclusion that it must be "the word of god".

I on the other hand believe that men are capable of deciphering what message that they want to portray, thus compiling a book they would call the bible. There have also been independent studies of technologies, disease and medicine from men who never met each other but came to the same conclusions.




You are correct JohhnyB, I was indoctrinated but it was not by who you claim. I was raised southern Baptist and was educated through a private christian school. I know the religion very well and like most religions it is written to exploit mankinds ignorance with fear. What man would not say I believe in this man if it would save him an eternity of suffering. I didn't dodge NC's question I was expressing that the authors of the Bible have no crediblility and if a book were put together today of the same stories and claimed to be non-fiction, it would be accepted for what it's worth - a laugh.




You place your faith in a book that you have been told was the "word of god". This book's stories are inconsistent with reality and at best could be called metaphors or myths. I use information from other men but if it is unsubstantiated, I will definately keep that in mind and definately will not bet my life on it.

okay but you still didn't answer the question or acknowledge that science was wrong about the earth being flat and the Bible being right that it is round.

What about other religions being wrong about the earth, that it not carried on the back(s) of anything but it hangs in space. How could the Bible be so accurate about that, if there was no way for men to look at the earth?

Oh yes the myth about Pontius Pilate, many critics said that the Bible was wrong that no such person live, yet archeology proved them wrong. I know just another conspiracy, right?

Now let me get this right, men conspired to make thing happen so the stories would line up and the ones that wanted the Jews to get their homeland back won? because they were killed off in the millions through out history. Or are you trying to say that the Jews being exciled from there land was a myth or the Jews getting their homeland back after almost 1900 years is inconsistant?

Since this thread is about evolution being bunk, remember it's only a therory. Darwin never know about DNA or RNA or the way a cell was formed, which if it's looked at with an honest open view, no one would still believe in it. Dr Dean Kenyon the co-athour of Biochemical Predestination a best seller in evolutionary circles of teaching. Has said his book was bunk and there is no way that evolution is scientific but it is subjective at best. It boils down to where did the information in the DNA cell come form. If you think it happened ove billions of year or whtever. That's a logical as finding a computer with all it's programs and say look what happened in billions of years. Everyone knows it was manufactured and programed by an intelligent being. The same reasoning applies to the DNA cell.

JohnnyB

TweetHey Klash!

I was reading one of your responses to JohnnyB, and you wrote,

I was raised southern Baptist and was educated through a private christian school. I know the religion very well and like most religions it is written to exploit mankinds ignorance with fear.

I'm curious: Was there a time in your life when you did believe in God, or have you always felt the way you do? Was it something you saw somebody do, was there maybe a hypocrite in the church you went to that turned you off?