Land of the free?

[straydoglogic]

I thought this was the land of the free and we had the greatest document next to the Magna Carta to back it up. When did we become the land of the selective free. When did it become the land of the it's okay to be free as long as it doesn't bother me? I bet if somebody wanted to build a xtian church or a synagogue 3 block away from ground zero it would be okay. Should the mosques that are already nearby be torn down? I keep hearing "I hate this guy cuz he backs the mosque." Well, then that means you hate the US Constitution as well. Because anybody that enforces the rules of the Constitution knows that we have freedom OF religion and freedom FROM religion. No matter which religion it may be. I went to war with muslims fighting by my side, it makes me sick to hear people say that they all want to kill us. It's really one of the most ignorant statement I've ever heard. I have a muslim friend that come to my parents house almost every weekend to play cards or do other things and we rag on him about not eating bacon and he's never tried to come to the house with a backpack full of explosives. All this generalized hatred toward all people of a certain faith when the people of the other faith are no better. You must understand history to understand the present. I'm off on a tangent, so I digress. We are supposed to be the land of the free, FOR ALL CITIZENS of what has been, and can again be, the greatest country this world has ever known. Don't you people see that by hating a group and oppressing them is exactly what got us into this mess overseas, and then you want to do it in our own backyard? Okay, I'll quit for now before I write a novel, and I'm sure I'm going to catch a lot of flak for this but so be it. I'm an Atheist and I hate all religions, but I do respect others right to worship as they please, no matter how much I disagree with their beliefs. Freedom is for everyone, not just a selected group.

[horsepwr]

Re: Land of the free?

I agree. Freedom is for everyone! And to believe that all Muslims want to kill "us" or you?..I'm not sure who "us" is. I guess you meant Americans? There are many American Muslims, so, of course. To say that "all muslims want to kill us". That is a pretty ignint statement.
I do agree with a muslim spokesperson I saw on tv that spoke of the distaste in building a mosque in that area. If you've seen the architect's rendition of the mosque, it becomes extremely clear why the enormous mosque is causing such controversy, as well as clear that the mosque is indeed a structural symbol of an Islamic conquered territory. It could easily be taken, or mistaken (you pick), as a mockery of the WTC buildings which once stood less than 100yrds from the proposed site of the "Islamic Center." 51 Park Pl is the closest available real-estate to "ground zero". Not to mention, as premium as premium gets, when it comes to commercially zoned property! I would imagine that 51 Park, New York is any developer's wet dream. In come funding. income. Well, this is the land of the free. As the thread topic says, correct? I question too. American land. Amercian funded? What does funding matter?..to the "land of the free." Funding is the foundation. Without funding, there's no foundation, literally. Who's funding this house of religion? Does it matter? Land of the free?..you ask? I'm all about freedom, and the land of it. If this mosque is funded by countries of oppression. Does that matter? Does it matter that your tax dollars will help in funding?..that's another thread all together because all religions are treated like minorities when it's tax time.
I'm not gonna play dumb, and act like this imam just wants a place to build a center. I didn't fall off yesterday. I also know who I usher into my home. I won't usher someone in that believes my freedoms should be oppressed for their benefit under the bullshit premise of religion.
Land of the free?..I hope it remains. If the land of the free sells out to oppressive wannabe dictators, haters, and racist. Then the slow progression will hit overdrive and we won't have to question about our country's liberty. Those in power will let us know for sure, as the people of Iran know well where their freedom is.

[horsepwr]

Re: Land of the free?

Oh, here's an image of the 13 story mosque. It's an attractive building.

[JsJs24]

Re: Land of the free?

I'm with you straydoglogic. I already pointed this out a while back on here and on my blog. This Imam has the right to build a mosque on his own land per the Constitution, but many Americans don't respect the Constitution unless it is in their favor. Is it deplorable to build the mosque there? Yes, I believe so. Is this Imam a good Muslim or one of the one's that have a hatred toward America? I believe he has a hatred toward America. But I still will defend his right to build it. The group of people hell bent on preventing this mosque from being built are neoconservatives, which do not abide by the Constitution so much as they preach about it. Neoconservatives are just as much for big government as the left wing Democrats but with different intentions. In this case their intention is to have the government prevent this mosque from being erected. But as I have stated before, what really cracks me up is that there has been a mosque 2 blocks from the WTC for 20 years...lol. How come nobody discusses that? Why are there no protesters demanding to tear down that mosque? This is pure politics and a bad idea on the neoconservative side.

Straydoglogic, isn't it interesting how few people understand the Constitution and are willing to go around it anytime it benefits them?

[straydoglogic]

Re: Land of the free?

Straydoglogic, isn't it interesting how few people understand the Constitution and are willing to go around it anytime it benefits them?

And there is the problem sir. The Constitution is the law of the land unless they don't like what another group is doing.

[horsepwr]

Re: Land of the free?

A Neoconservative is, by definition, - a "conservative" that believes in overseas intervention; interventionist

[horsepwr]

Re: Land of the free?

Anybody that's served overseas for his counry has been the action of interventionism.
However you feel about it now...now you have 1st hand experience.

[JsJs24]

Re: Land of the free?

A Neoconservative is, by definition, - a "conservative" that believes in overseas intervention; interventionist

It's not quite that simple but in a nutshell that could serve as a very vague definition. There is the economic side of the Neoconservative philosophy as well. Basically support of a welfare state that favors right wing politics and economics. Below is the wikipedia definition, or a paragraph of it anyway.

Neoconservatism is a political philosophy that emerged in the United States of America, which supports using modern American economic and military power to bring liberalism, democracy, and human rights to other countries.[1][2][3] Consequently the term is chiefly applicable to certain Americans and their strong supporters. In economics, unlike paleoconservatives and libertarians, neoconservatives are generally comfortable with a welfare state; and, while rhetorically supportive of free markets, they are willing to interfere for overriding social purposes. wikipedia

I use the term a lot because those on the far right who all too often fail to remember the Constitution and do indeed support government intervention are of the neoconservative crowd. I don't mean to offend anyone who may share their beliefs, but it is this particular group of people who are ridiculing the mosque for the most part, and I want to be clear that I am not singling out Conservatives as a whole, for certainly Constitution supporting Conservatives are not the audience I am referring to. Now please don't get me wrong here, I don't like the idea of the Imam's building it because it seems like mockery, however I strictly support the U.S. Constitution. And yes, I have first hand experience serving in wars overseas, but that does not make me a Neoconservative. Also, a great many of the soldiers I have served with are Ron Paul supporters, and actually he received more campaign contributions from soldiers than all the other Republicans put together. Thus, many soldiers are far from Neoconservatives.

As always it is hard to convey my message clearly in a few short sentences or paragraphs. Horsepwr, you and I can discuss this over the phone like usual, and I'm fairly certain you understand my position. But to those who haven't discussed politics and economics with me outside of this board, I'm afraid my position is not clearly understood sometimes. The best way I can explain myself is that I am a supporter of the U.S. Constitution; I am aware that our country was founded as a Constitutional Republic and not a Democracy; I am also aware that the word Democracy is nowhere to be found in our Constitution because the founders believed a pure Democracy is one of the most dangerous forms of government and always leads to despotism or totalitarianism; and I am a Jeffersonian.

Those who claim to support the Constitution should at least give it a read, along with the Declaration of Independence. Know what you stand for and stand for it firm. Do not worry what the party believes, believe in yourself and the Constitution our Country is governed by. There is no good in choosing sides for the sake of choosing sides, nor is there any good in taking views from talking heads on TV who most of probably haven't ever studied the Constitution in depth nor the Federalist Papers or Anti-Federalist Papers, nor the Declaration of Independence, nor the letters written between the founders on the issue of liberty and government, nor any non-fiction books on economics and/or politics. Yet those talking heads will gladly talk about how great the founders were and how disappointed they would be to be alive now and see what is going on, and then in the same breath they will ridicule an American citizen who desires to build a building that has a mosque inside it on his own private property. Now here I come across as a supporter of the Imam's plan to many people I imagine, when in fact I am merely supporting his Constitutional right to do so. Thus, it doesn't really matter to me what the intent is; instead my concern is the legality of it.

[FUZO]

Re: Land of the free?

peole are just throwing this constition in our face about the mosque thing because it says all religion can build this or that. But damn it how about some respect to those people who lost loved ones at 911. This group trying to get this done is only doing this to throw it in our americans face. That muslim group can blow them sleves up and be done with there whole group,there sick people. Who the fuk blows them selves up for a make believe god. What do they call it ALA or some shit.

[JsJs24]

Re: Land of the free?

peole are just throwing this constition in our face about the mosque thing because it says all religion can build this or that. But damn it how about some respect to those people who lost loved ones at 911. This group trying to get this done is only doing this to throw it in our americans face. That muslim group can blow them sleves up and be done with there whole group,there sick people. Who the fuk blows them selves up for a make believe god. What do they call it ALA or some shit.

Like I said, I don't believe it is in good taste and I suspect this man is not a friend to our western civilization. But I have to stand on the side of the Constitution because that is what has kept our Country strong all these years. Once we begin down the road of ignoring the Constitution there's no telling what our Country will turn into. This whole subject however is a waste of time debating for the most part because the mosque will not be built. He needs $150 million to build it and only has a few thousand. In addition to that, I fear this could hurt the Republican Party come election time if they don't drop the issue. The Republicans are relying on Independents and other 3rd party candidates voting in their favor, but paying too much attention to this issue could turn some away. Again, I don't like the idea of the Imam building this, but it is NOT going to be built. This is a publicity stunt and purely political. The man does not have the funds nor will he ever get the funds to build it.

[horsepwr]

Re: Land of the free?

Jsjs. I hope you know I wouldn't refer to you as a neoconservative at any rate. I was just making the point on oversease intervention and neoconservatives. And, of course, alot of the whole neoconservative outlook has eceonomics somewhere near the top of the benefits of the philosophy. I understand, very well, from talking to you, that you do not take that position, even though you served overseas intervention. I understand where you're coming from. And I also would imagine you've thought of factes of neoconservatism that most of us haven't. I don't concern myself with it, really. It's a form of intervention, so I brush it aside.

We need to keep ourselves front and center. 1st and foremost. Conserve individualism. Conserve freedom. Conserve liberty.
We can do that. There are people that don't believe in that. Just because they forget what we're conserving. Or not. Or they're against it.

[horsepwr]

Re: Land of the free?

I can't get over all the "democracy this" and "democracy that"...Democracy is all wrong.
The people fear the goverment in a democracy.
In a Republic. The government worked for the people.

[JsJs24]

Re: Land of the free?

Jsjs. I hope you know I wouldn't refer to you as a neoconservative at any rate. I was just making the point on oversease intervention and neoconservatives. And, of course, alot of the whole neoconservative outlook has eceonomics somewhere near the top of the benefits of the philosophy. I understand, very well, from talking to you, that you do not take that position, even though you served overseas intervention. I understand where you're coming from. And I also would imagine you've thought of factes of neoconservatism that most of us haven't. I don't concern myself with it, really. It's a form of intervention, so I brush it aside.

We need to keep ourselves front and center. 1st and foremost. Conserve individualism. Conserve freedom. Conserve liberty.
We can do that. There are people that don't believe in that. Just because they forget what we're conserving. Or not. Or they're against it.

I was thinking you would not confuse me with that but still couldn't tell for sure what you were conveying so I laid it out clearly. Thanks horsepwr for understanding me as usual. It is I who tends to misunderstand what people say the most on here.

[JsJs24]

Re: Land of the free?

I can't get over all the "democracy this" and "democracy that"...Democracy is all wrong.
The people fear the goverment in a democracy.
In a Republic. The government worked for the people.

Isn't it disgusting to hear them all say that. I call people on it all the time and explain why we are not meant to be a Democracy. My thoughts on this are that the government wants to convince us that we are no longer a Republic, keep drilling the word Democracy in our head until we no longer remember what a Republic is. But for those of us who have read the founders letters we know that they discussed a democracy and labeled it one of the most dangerous forms of government in the world, and thus left the word completely out of the Constitution.

[straydoglogic]

Re: Land of the free?

Who the fuk blows them selves up for a make believe god. What do they call it ALA or some shit.

Well, I think we all know that the same could be said of your god. Even though all three monotheistic religions have the same derivative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions