Dancing, laughing at Auschwitz: Who has the right?

[daved150]

Re: Dancing, laughing at Auschwitz: Who has the right?

Dave do you know the history of what happen and 6 million jews killed and burned alive,why in the world would anyone dance at the doors of a place where people who were alive put in a room and burned alive. He belittles everyone by making a dance video just because he survived.This should be taken off the internet. Clearly this old man has dementia because any normal person wouldnt do anything like that

yea bro, i went to schoool and everything. they teach world war 2 history in michigan too. it was fukin horrible to say the least. it was an evil act, lead by a guy that deserves to burn in hell....this guy was there!!! he was there!!! he lived!!! dance oldman!! dance!!! i think he's got every righ tto celebrate his life! and i dont agree that anyone has the right to deny or even question him, unless you walked in his shoes! just my opinion bro.

[FUZO]

Re: Dancing, laughing at Auschwitz: Who has the right?

Like I said in my previous post if people dont have family members or friends that lived this then they really dont know what the people went through.Dave do you think its ok for that man and his family to dance out in front of the buildings were milions and millions of people were burned alive


If you think its ok to dance out in front of the places were milions of people were burned alive well I dont think that

[daved150]

Re: Dancing, laughing at Auschwitz: Who has the right?

Like I said in my previous post if people dont have family members or friends that lived this then they really dont know what the people went through.Dave do you think its ok for that man and his family to dance out in front of the buildings were milions and millions of people were burned alive


If you think its ok to dance out in front of the places were milions of people were burned alive well I dont think that

booboo's grandfather was taken there fuzo...a germain harboring jews. he was put to death. i see no way that, that has anything to do with anything. yea...i think its fine! i'm sure that man has family that died there. friends that died there. i have no buisness questioning his motives or even thinking about denying him to dance there!!! i dont know of anyone on this board that could possibly say that they have walked in that mans shoes and can pass judgement on him.....god bless the fact that he can dance! i know its a sensitive subject for you....but i bet its more of a sensitive subject for him!!! maybe his friends would want him too dance!! maybe he dances wiht the memories and the ghost's of his loved ones!!! i'm not the one to deny him that brother...no fukin way would i take that on!

[Testify]

Re: Dancing, laughing at Auschwitz: Who has the right?

Let me get this right. You understand the freedom of speech but if its in poor taste it should not be permitted? And who is to determine what all is done in poor taste? What power indeed that person would have, to merely decide whatever he or she so chooses to be in poor taste and then censor it. Please don't take this as a form of mockery, I am simply conveying the unsaid insinuation of your own words.

The 1st amendment grants us the freedom of speech and expression. You are confusing morals with constitutional rights. What you may perceive as immoral does not make it unconstitutional.

I don't think you read my post accurately - I think we are saying some of the same things, really. I do understand what the freedom of expression provision has become and how it is generelly accepted as the right to say or do whatever you want, so long as it does not harm another person or prevent them from exercising their rights under the law. I'm not sure what Germany's laws provide for an individual regarding expression, but I think even that is beside the point. My argument is that the law's provision for a particular right does not necessarily mean that a person should exercise that right without regard to context. For example, I can get on my cell phone and talk loudly all through a friend's wedding ceremony - but that doesn't mean I am right to do so. There are a lot of people who are in favor a woman's right to abort her child - but many of those same people would never exercise that right because they feel it is wrong to do so. There are the classic flag burners, the news outlets that aim to persuade while claiming to simply report, the protesters that target the funeral / burial services of our fallen soldiers . . .there is no shortage of examples. Just because the law grants individuals the right to do something, this does not make it "right" or appropriate to exercise in every situation. That is the best way I can explain my feelings. I think the old man's dance at the gates of a death camp was inappropriate and selfish, and very simply disrespectful of the victims (and their families) who were not so fortunate to escape with their lives as he. He may have the right to do what he did, but I don't agree that his actions were right, or even morally/socially neutral. That is just my opinion.

[FUZO]

Re: Dancing, laughing at Auschwitz: Who has the right?

...i think its fine!

Well I cant see anyone thinking its ok to dance in front of a place where millions of people were burned alive even if your a holocaust survivor. That old man should show some respect to those that died instead of making a video that was put on youtube with a stupid ass song. He could of made the song at home or in a park not at a DEATH CAMP hence the word DEATH CAMP not a dancing camp

I think the old man's dance at the gates of a death camp was inappropriate and selfish, and very simply disrespectful of the victims (and their families) who were not so fortunate to escape with their lives as he. He may have the right to do what he did, but I don't agree that his actions were right, or even morally/socially neutral. That is just my opinion.

Well said

[daved150]

Re: Dancing, laughing at Auschwitz: Who has the right?

we choose to disagree...i still love ya brother, i just dont agree!! after all i said, you pick "i think its fine",
...and guys...HE IS A "VITCIM AND THEIR FAMILYS"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Testify]

Re: Dancing, laughing at Auschwitz: Who has the right?

^ Fair enough Dave. We all have opinions, and they don't have to be the same. This was a good discussion though.

[JsJs24]

Re: Dancing, laughing at Auschwitz: Who has the right?

I don't think you read my post accurately - I think we are saying some of the same things, really. I do understand what the freedom of expression provision has become and how it is generelly accepted as the right to say or do whatever you want, so long as it does not harm another person or prevent them from exercising their rights under the law. I'm not sure what Germany's laws provide for an individual regarding expression, but I think even that is beside the point. My argument is that the law's provision for a particular right does not necessarily mean that a person should exercise that right without regard to context. For example, I can get on my cell phone and talk loudly all through a friend's wedding ceremony - but that doesn't mean I am right to do so. There are a lot of people who are in favor a woman's right to abort her child - but many of those same people would never exercise that right because they feel it is wrong to do so. There are the classic flag burners, the news outlets that aim to persuade while claiming to simply report, the protesters that target the funeral / burial services of our fallen soldiers . . .there is no shortage of examples. Just because the law grants individuals the right to do something, this does not make it "right" or appropriate to exercise in every situation. That is the best way I can explain my feelings. I think the old man's dance at the gates of a death camp was inappropriate and selfish, and very simply disrespectful of the victims (and their families) who were not so fortunate to escape with their lives as he. He may have the right to do what he did, but I don't agree that his actions were right, or even morally/socially neutral. That is just my opinion.

The point I was making is that nobody has the right to decide with moral judgment what is to be permitted as acceptable. If ever someone should have the power to make that decision then the freedom of speech will be lost. It is a dangerous path to go down. Who is to say that the person with the power to decide what is moral and what is not will be in the best interest. When it comes to freedom of speech we must realize that we have the freedom to ignore or not listen to that we disagree with. And on the subject of the Jewish man dancing, he was there himself and survived, thus he has every moral right to express himself no matter what others think. It doesn't matter if I had a relative there or not, the fact is he was there himself and is showing his way of celebrating his survival.

Freedom of speech is a sensitive issue. Of course I don't condone flag burning or protesters at military funerals, but I remind myself to be thankful for my right to exercise my speech. There are a lot of people who would be offended by me calling the president a Marxist, communist, dictator, but the freedom of speech permits me to say those things regardless of what others think. Here we have some members supporting this man's right to make that video and an equal number against it. Thus, the members are divided and those who oppose it want this man's speech censored. If the government were to censor something this divided and harmless for that matter, just imagine what else they would censor that you may support. It works both ways so why not simply ignore issues like this if they bother you, or discuss them and say what you choose, but think hard before condemning it and calling for censorship. I respect your view but I feel you are misinterpreting the 1st amendment. This is why I say both parties favor big government as long as it caters to their own beliefs. I favor liberty and want the government to stay out of my business to the greatest extent possible.

Please tell me who you believe would do an appropriate job in determining what is poor taste or context. Would it be the Supreme Court which is almost tilted to the left entirely? Who is going to stand up for you speech once the courts become left wing dominant and begin censoring the things you believe in?

[JsJs24]

Re: Dancing, laughing at Auschwitz: Who has the right?

[quote=daved150;936140]we choose to disagree...i still love ya brother, i just dont agree!! after all i said, you pick "i think its fine",



Well said. People are forgetting that he was a victim at the "death camps." It's interesting how he doesn't deserve the right to speak out even though he is a survivor, but those who were there and choose to say nothing are perfectly permitted to do just that.

[Testify]

Re: Dancing, laughing at Auschwitz: Who has the right?

JS, I thought I was clear that I do support the laws granting freedom of speech. I never called for censorship, and I didn't imply it. I think we as Americans should be happy and celebrate our freedoms, as that is what differentiates us from other countries . . . mostly in a positive light. I don't want to take away our citizens' freedoms, nor do I wish to have our government legislate appropriate good taste and context - that subject matter should be as "self evident" to us as the founders believed their/our basic political rights to be. Freedom is a double edged sword, surely. But though I may disagree with a great many things Americans do under the nebulous umbrella of free speech, I still believe that suppression or censorship of these freedoms is yet still a slicker slope. I don't believe I ever suggested censorship in my replies, or condemned the idea that one has a right to do something which I determine is undesireable or immoral or distasteful - I only said that I think the old man exercised poor judgement and acted in poor taste. I know that must seem exasperating or pointless as a basis for evaluating a man's actions in the context of your law school education - But I never trumpeted the law as my champion. I have offered no referendum on the laws of any country or the rights of any citizen . . . My personal evaluation is very simply the opinion one man. I just disagree with what the guy did.

[JsJs24]

Re: Dancing, laughing at Auschwitz: Who has the right?

JS, I thought I was clear that I do support the laws granting freedom of speech. I never called for censorship, and I didn't imply it. I think we as Americans should be happy and celebrate our freedoms, as that is what differentiates us from other countries . . . mostly in a positive light. I don't want to take away our citizens' freedoms, nor do I wish to have our government legislate appropriate good taste and context - that subject matter should be as "self evident" to us as the founders believed their/our basic political rights to be. Freedom is a double edged sword, surely. But though I may disagree with a great many things Americans do under the nebulous umbrella of free speech, I still believe that suppression or censorship of these freedoms is yet still a slicker slope. I don't believe I ever suggested censorship in my replies, or condemned the idea that one has a right to do something which I determine is undesireable or immoral or distasteful - I only said that I think the old man exercised poor judgement and acted in poor taste. I know that must seem exasperating or pointless as a basis for evaluating a man's actions in the context of your law school education - But I never trumpeted the law as my champion. I have offered no referendum on the laws of any country or the rights of any citizen . . . My personal evaluation is very simply the opinion one man. I just disagree with what the guy did.

My apology for taking your post out of context. I have read your posts again and I can see how you were supporting the 1st amendment but at the same time voicing your opinion. Initially I interpreted it as if you were supporting to censor the video as someone else had mentioned when suggesting the video should be taken down, and for that I was wrong. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I'll assume your remark concerning my education was sarcasm considering I am not a lawyer and never claimed to be. If not, now you know. No hard feelings from me.

[FUZO]

Re: Dancing, laughing at Auschwitz: Who has the right?

MY WHOLE THING IS I DONT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH HIM MAKING THIS CHEESY VIDEO ITS JUST WHERE HE MADE IT AT. IF IT WASNT AT THE DEATH CAMPS I WOULD BE FINE WITH IT BUT TO MAKE IT AT THE FRONT OF THE PLACE WHERE MILLIONS WERE BURNED ALIVE I DONT AGREE. I UNDERSTAND FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND ANYONE COULD DO WHAT THEY WANT. BUT LIKE I SAID "IMO" TASTELESS

[JsJs24]

Re: Dancing, laughing at Auschwitz: Who has the right?

MY WHOLE THING IS I DONT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH HIM MAKING THIS CHEESY VIDEO ITS JUST WHERE HE MADE IT AT. IF IT WASNT AT THE DEATH CAMPS I WOULD BE FINE WITH IT BUT TO MAKE IT AT THE FRONT OF THE PLACE WHERE MILLIONS WERE BURNED ALIVE I DONT AGREE. I UNDERSTAND FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND ANYONE COULD DO WHAT THEY WANT. BUT LIKE I SAID "IMO" TASTELESS

Okay here is my last post on the topic...lol. I can see where it can be considered classless, and I am glad you and others openly explain your view. I got too deep into this discussion due to some outside discussions on the same topic lately.

My apology to testify for taking your post out of context. I really am sorry and wish I would have read it more clearly. It is ever so clear to me now after having read it 3 or 4 more times. It is keeping me up now just realizing how ignorant it was of me to come off so fast to assert that you didn't support the 1 amendment fully.

Fuzo, I know what you mean and I also know you understand the 1st amendment. Like I said, I have been debating this topic with others who don't understand it and I think it spilled out on the board. As always, I enjoyed this debate and learned something once again for myself.

Again, sorry for my taking this whole debate out of context and diving too deep into the technicalities.

[daved150]

Re: Dancing, laughing at Auschwitz: Who has the right?

i understand what your saying fuzo...million died. i gotcha...it was horrible. he was there. you wernt. he lost much, much more than you ever did at that camp. how he decides to celebrate his life and remember his friends and family, i dont feel is anyones right to question, he EARNED that dance!! thats my point. you can have your opinion...this is America!! but i dont think you or anyone has the right to even question him. just my opinion. you wernt there. he was. his opinion and feelings matter more to me on this subject. but your still my boy and he aint!! sooooo, you got that going for ya

[daved150]

Re: Dancing, laughing at Auschwitz: Who has the right?

ok...i too am down with this