An economist's review of Obamacare

[JsJs24]

This is taken from Mises.org, which I am confident one of our fellow members will claim it is a bad article or trash. However, the fact remains it was written by an economics major at Oklahoma University, and he is an alumnus of Mises University 2009 (Austrian Economics college). This article is based off of the actual house version of the health care bill that passed, and I have read all of the parts of the bill that he refers to, which are listed by page. Anyone is free to go and read the actual health care bill online at

http://docs.house.gov/edlabor/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf

The bill is very dry to read but I have skimmed through the most important parts of it and read well over 100 pages of it.

Here is the link from Mises.org http://mises.org/journals/fm/dec09.pdf

The facts are the facts, and anyone who doubts the potential harm this bill will cause has obviously not read the bill. There is no way around it, the bill is this serious and poses the biggest threat to our country's economy ever.

[FUZO]

Re: An economist's review of Obamacare

Who ever thinks that this health care bill is a good thing has a shoe up there ass and needs to seek help for being uneducated on the facts

[trip]

Re: An economist's review of Obamacare

good article, now, that is a writer i'd like to talk too, he seems to have done alot of homework

my question to him would be, "how, you lay it out, the auto dealer will only employ mechanics and no longer car washers?"

[Doink the clown]

Re: An economist's review of Obamacare

Anytime the gov't can tell my Dr. what he is and isn't allowed to do is baad ju-ju in my book.

[JsJs24]

Re: An economist's review of Obamacare

good article, now, that is a writer i'd like to talk too, he seems to have done alot of homework

my question to him would be, "how, you lay it out, the auto dealer will only employ mechanics and no longer car washers?"

Trip, glad to hear you liked it. I read journals of that sort all the time related to the field of economics.

Businesses are only concerned with profits, thus they will employ less people and only keep the ones who are of highest value. Perhaps they will have the mechanics washing the cars as an extra duty to save their job. This is going to be a domino effect that will cause a major recession. You see, the democrats think companies are all rich and can afford more taxes, but they can't. Just as the rich man figures out loopholes around paying his taxes, the business owner will do the same in regard to the health care tax.

Another thing I wanted to point out to you previously. You mentioned not haveing insurance and simply paying the $750 fine every year. Well, what makes you think that will remain at $750. Who's to say it won't increase to $10,000. Many experts have already said that once this bill passes there is no limit to what they can and will do to the bill. But one man I remember saying it will hardly look anything like what was passed by the time it takes affect.

[trip]

Re: An economist's review of Obamacare

Well, i disagree on how businesses operate. I don't believe thats what the dems believe, all politicians believe in taxes just not on them and there friends.

I'll handle the fine when it comes, that is the least of my worries. The average tax payer claims 2500 a year in write-offs for donations. Like that really happens.

I've been audited twice..........auditors want the file off there desk and a win in the column, not more work...........the IRS is the least of my worries.

[FUZO]

Re: An economist's review of Obamacare

Well, i disagree on how businesses operate. I don't believe thats what the dems believe, all politicians believe in taxes just not on them and there friends.

I'll handle the fine when it comes, that is the least of my worries. The average tax payer claims 2500 a year in write-offs for donations. Like that really happens.

I've been audited twice..........auditors want the file off there desk and a win in the column, not more work...........the IRS is the least of my worries.

See thats just it we americans shouldt be penalized for not having health insurance if we dont want it but you just say i'll handle it when it comes. Thats good thinking. You just dont seem to care about bigger gov do ya

[JsJs24]

Re: An economist's review of Obamacare

Well, i disagree on how businesses operate. I don't believe thats what the dems believe, all politicians believe in taxes just not on them and there friends.

I'll handle the fine when it comes, that is the least of my worries. The average tax payer claims 2500 a year in write-offs for donations. Like that really happens.

I've been audited twice..........auditors want the file off there desk and a win in the column, not more work...........the IRS is the least of my worries.

Well Trip, I don't know what you're experience is in the business world but I can say that it seems you have a distorted perception of reality. I am thinking you probably have your own business and therefore know what decisions you will make. However, when it comes to larger companies they will do whatever is necessary to remain profitable, especially if they have shareholders. Most business owners are not quite as charitable as the social liberals would like them to be and they are not going to sacrifice profits for very long simply to prevent laying off employees.

In addition to the health care bill, if the Employee Free Choice Act passes businesses will suffer even greater. This administration is fierce in its efforts to damage businesses for the greater social benefit. This administration is consistently working to pass socialist policies that will no doubt damage the economy. The fact that you downplay it all is astonishing considering you claim to be a libertarian. Where are your limited government views? How come you never discuss them if you hold them? How can you believe minimum government is the best practice but then continue to oblige to all of the policies this president supports? How can you believe that government intervention will not have a negative affect on the business sector?

[trip]

Re: An economist's review of Obamacare

First off profits are not the be all and end all. There is market share, access too captial, access to influence, legacy systems, transition systems and new systems, raw material costs, raw labor costs, efficeincy of labor, etc. Each of these go thru cycles like everything in life.

Google is a perfect example, they are highly profitable and awash in money, there present goal is not to be more profitable, there goal is to throw a thousand hooks in the sea and see how big a fish the can catch.

General Motors, focus on profits, lol, manufacturing is married to the S curve, so unless they produce x number of cars they bleed red..............they are still in a vicious circle, even after bk and government help, they need too sell 500k more cars too break even, even though in china they are printing money.

Air Lines, over the last 9 years they have had one profitable year, what has been there focus????? Cost cutting, and hope oil prices go down, and of course access to capital, without that access they die..........

Bio-techs, 90% lose more and more money each year, why are they in business?

IMHO, we should abolish, IRS, Social Security, Medicare, Dept. of Education, and 60% of most government programs.

[horsepwr]

Re: An economist's review of Obamacare

The bottom line, wheather profitable years, nonprofitable yrs...the ultimate goal is raising the bottom line,(profit/value), correct?

[trip]

Re: An economist's review of Obamacare

not neccesarily

companies are no different than people, sometimes it's just survival

look at airlines, they have been in survival mode for ten years, thus, alot of times it is tax loss carry forwards

the first rule of busines is if you are at the top, pay yourself first

do you believe all of the dotcoms that came on the market and were ipo'd there ultimate goal was to be profitable?

[JsJs24]

Re: An economist's review of Obamacare

First off profits are not the be all and end all. There is market share, access too captial, access to influence, legacy systems, transition systems and new systems, raw material costs, raw labor costs, efficeincy of labor, etc. Each of these go thru cycles like everything in life.

Google is a perfect example, they are highly profitable and awash in money, there present goal is not to be more profitable, there goal is to throw a thousand hooks in the sea and see how big a fish the can catch.

General Motors, focus on profits, lol, manufacturing is married to the S curve, so unless they produce x number of cars they bleed red..............they are still in a vicious circle, even after bk and government help, they need too sell 500k more cars too break even, even though in china they are printing money.

Air Lines, over the last 9 years they have had one profitable year, what has been there focus????? Cost cutting, and hope oil prices go down, and of course access to capital, without that access they die..........

Bio-techs, 90% lose more and more money each year, why are they in business?

IMHO, we should abolish, IRS, Social Security, Medicare, Dept. of Education, and 60% of most government programs.

You have just summed up a lot about yourself for me Trip, thank you.

I suppose a company can continue to survive while breaking even, especially if they are non-profit companies, but those are not the ones I am speaking of when addressing the business industry. Come on Trip, get serious will you. The most important thing for a company with shareholders is to make profits, otherwise try explaining the other reason to the share holders. But yes, you are correct that companies can go on without increasing profits but you missed the key point, they are going to see their current profit margin decrease. I used the term loosely and perhaps should not have used it at all. In my previous post I was merely trying to explain that most businesses (majority are small by the way) desire to remain profitable. I thought the economist who wrote the article did a great job explaining this but of course you did not agree. Even though he used the actual health care bill and provided scenarios, you still don't get it. Thus, I will give you a clearer picture if you care to review it, and make no mistake about it, this IS what I will do if affected at that time by the new bill.

Suppose I own a small company of 20 employees and I pay everyone a salary of 40k, myself a salary of 60k, and my profit after all operating costs is 100k. Since I am the owner I have 100k extra to put in my pocket each year if I wish although my salary is 60k. For tax purposes I am not going to pay myself 160k and most likely I will put a good portion of that back into the company for improvements and future growth. Then, Obamacare hits the market and I am forced to pay an 8% health care tax on each of my employees salaries. Let's do the math here, 8% of 40k = 3,200 annually x 20 employees = $64,000 and 8% x 60k = 4,800, thus the combined total for health insurance will now be $68,800. My profit has now decreased to $31,200, or dropped nearly 70%. What is my remedy going to be? Well, I have noticed that a couple of the guys aren't that productive and some of the others are so good at their job that they could pick up the slack, also I don't mind taking on more of a workload myself. Therefore, I will lay off 2 employees which saves me $80k in salaries and $6,400 in health insurance bringing my profit back up to $117,600. Welcome to reality Trip, and realize that the majority of businesses in the country are SMALL businesses.

I am not talking about the few exceptions that operate off of the governments dime; nor am I talking about the companies ruined by unions; I am talking about real companies, not the giants you mentioned who have friends in Washington. And thank you for bringing up the airlines. What do you think ruined them? The unions and government regulations.

Trip, you told horsepwr that a lot of companies don't need profit. Okay, okay, I get it, but what will they do when the income they currently have is reduced because of the health care tax? This is such common since it is painful for me to debate you right now.
You have the typical academia view of everything, the common socialist liberal view with a touch of classical liberalism once in a while until you contradict yourself and prove once again to be of the socialist mindset. You are entitled to your opinions, which I can respect, however my debating you gets nowhere.

[3Vandoo]

Re: An economist's review of Obamacare

lol

[JsJs24]

Re: An economist's review of Obamacare

lol

Thank you for removing that. Not sure if that was my actual IP or not, and maybe you meant no harm but I just don't want that stuff posted on the board. If it wasn't my IP then sorry for over reacting.

[Gonzomedic]

Re: An economist's review of Obamacare

Thank you for the post and link. I plan on taking a few xenadrynes before reading it. If the bill such as it is, dictates what procedures are to be utilized I hope it fails.