Closer than ever...

[trip]

Re: Closer than ever...

fwiw, I'm not an X marks the spot believer

IMHO, 3 X's come together at times and influence direction of events

if one knows X's are aligning, one does there best too deal with them, thus, healtcare stays in for profit hands, and they deal with changes, that's life that's business

so, i've reviewed my X's checked alignments, and it's business as usual, which mean in time things will adjust however yet should generally progress in a similar direction

[FUZO]

Re: Closer than ever...

Trip are you saying that this new health care bill your in favor of

I asked a very simple question now give me a very simple answer yes or no and why

[JsJs24]

Re: Closer than ever...

fwiw, I'm not an X marks the spot believer

IMHO, 3 X's come together at times and influence direction of events

if one knows X's are aligning, one does there best too deal with them, thus, healtcare stays in for profit hands, and they deal with changes, that's life that's business

so, i've reviewed my X's checked alignments, and it's business as usual, which mean in time things will adjust however yet should generally progress in a similar direction

You are quite naive with the amount of trust you seem to have for the government. One only has to look at the history of our government to see how large it has grown and how many freedoms have been retracted. Next, it will be conservative talk radio, because the leftists don't feel it's "fair" that the majority of Americans who listen to talk radio choose the conservative over the liberal, and thus as usual the liberal can't survive in the private sector as an entrepreneur. This is so similar to Atlas Shrugged that I actually am beginning to think Ayn Rand painted a perfect picture of the future. Why else are her books selling in record numbers this year.

Trip, continue to trust your loving government and I will continue to keep both eyes on them at all times. One day you will realize that they are not just people; some of them are indeed evil people who care not about the peasants. Nothing has changed with man over the years. You still have those who seek power in the form of dictatorships, and what's to say America, the country most immigrated to, has not gained some people of the sort.

I'll end with a few quoted:

“If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of it’s experienced patriots to prevent it’s ruin.” - Samuel Adams, founding father

But a Constitution of Government once changed from Freedom, can never be restored. Liberty, once lost, is lost forever.
John Adams, letter to Abigail Adams, July 17, 177

Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves, therefore, are its only safe depositories.
Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, Query 14, 1781

“The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.” - Thomas Jefferson

[trip]

Re: Closer than ever...

I asked a very simple question now give me a very simple answer yes or no and why

Fuzo, you know i like and respect, and we go back and forth, one of my pet peeves is I say things often and you seem to think differently.

I've said 3-4 times I think the system is stupid, I'm a libertarian, which means less government involved in my personal decision making the better.

I've read alot on it, educated myself as much as I feel comfortable with, and in the end, my BEST GUESS, cause no one can predict the future, is that it should probably be business as usual, people systems and things will adjust.

The powers that be have there loopholes, and the gubment provides some guidance and direction on what they deem best.

Hell, I have no insurance and will not buy it, so personally it affects not at all, i'm just curious of the whoe potatoe.

[trip]

Re: Closer than ever...

You are quite naive with the amount of trust you seem to have for the government. One only has to look at the history of our government to see how large it has grown and how many freedoms have been retracted. Next, it will be conservative talk radio, because the leftists don't feel it's "fair" that the majority of Americans who listen to talk radio choose the conservative over the liberal, and thus as usual the liberal can't survive in the private sector as an entrepreneur. This is so similar to Atlas Shrugged that I actually am beginning to think Ayn Rand painted a perfect picture of the future. Why else are her books selling in record numbers this year.

Trip, continue to trust your loving government and I will continue to keep both eyes on them at all times. One day you will realize that they are not just people; some of them are indeed evil people who care not about the peasants. Nothing has changed with man over the years. You still have those who seek power in the form of dictatorships, and what's to say America, the country most immigrated to, has not gained some people of the sort.

I'll end with a few quoted:

“If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of it’s experienced patriots to prevent it’s ruin.” - Samuel Adams, founding father

But a Constitution of Government once changed from Freedom, can never be restored. Liberty, once lost, is lost forever.
John Adams, letter to Abigail Adams, July 17, 177

Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves, therefore, are its only safe depositories.
Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, Query 14, 1781

“The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.” - Thomas Jefferson

you say naive, I say realist, I'll trust my own judgement on this one as opposed to your's, i've worked with my own longer, and it has worked out pretty good

Atlas Shrugged, read it, read a half dozen of her books, imho, as I often say, Hate Motivates, she hated ussr and wrote vehemently about the corruption of the system she lived under and desired and got away from, got no problem with that.........personally none of it is memorable to me, I'm not a propenent of her main tenant, which is that everyone should think logical all the time, maybe 10% of folks brains are wired straight 100% logical, most folks are extremely emotional

FWIW, I've never had an interest in politics until several years ago, I find it fascianting from a human physcholgical perspective. Personally I could care less about it, some people end up in charge cause there is that need, most people desire that spot for prestige and power and are pretty un-aware, I've been on 3 different boards of large groups, it's the same shit at the bottom as at the top, the folks who want the top spots for the most part use it as a point of personal gain, the rare too help, and the rare one is shunned, because to truly help you run aflow of all the other players plans for gains.

My passions lie elsewhere so I'm agnostic on the whole thing.

As, I've often said, twenty years from now it will be the libertarians chance.

[JsJs24]

Re: Closer than ever...

Fuzo, you know i like and respect, and we go back and forth, one of my pet peeves is I say things often and you seem to think differently.

I've said 3-4 times I think the system is stupid, I'm a libertarian, which means less government involved in my personal decision making the better.

I've read alot on it, educated myself as much as I feel comfortable with, and in the end, my BEST GUESS, cause no one can predict the future, is that it should probably be business as usual, people systems and things will adjust.

The powers that be have there loopholes, and the gubment provides some guidance and direction on what they deem best.

Hell, I have no insurance and will not buy it, so personally it affects not at all, i'm just curious of the whoe potatoe.

You will have to buy insurance once this plan goes into action, thus if affects you completely.

Perhaps, you may be a libertarian, but all of the libertarians I know are strongly opposed to government intervention and especially to this bill. Trip, I find it hard to believe that you are actually a libertarian however, you seem to side more with the left and I have always thought of you to be a classical liberal. In its true form of course, not the modern day progressive form that it has taken today. And there are strong similarities between libertarianism and classical liberalism I suppose, but state intervention is a huge factor in the libertarian party. We do not want the government to invade our lives, and the reason is because we understand the significant effect it can have on our freedom. Therefore, how can you be a libertarian if you do not believe that government intervention poses a serious risk. I would check yourself and your views. Please do not take offense to that by the way. Also, you laughed at a link I provided from Mises.org, which is a website with mostly libertarians, and most of the professors their are libertarians. Thus, you discredited a site that stands for libertarianism and Austrian economics and yet you claim to be a libertarian.

[FUZO]

Re: Closer than ever...

Fuzo, you know i like and respect, and we go back and forth, one of my pet peeves is I say things often and you seem to think differently.

I've said 3-4 times I think the system is stupid, I'm a libertarian, which means less government involved in my personal decision making the better.

I've read alot on it, educated myself as much as I feel comfortable with, and in the end, my BEST GUESS, cause no one can predict the future, is that it should probably be business as usual, people systems and things will adjust.

The powers that be have there loopholes, and the gubment provides some guidance and direction on what they deem best.

Hell, I have no insurance and will not buy it, so personally it affects not at all, i'm just curious of the whoe potatoe.

TRIP YOU CALL YOUR SELF A LIBERTARIAN BUT WHEN YOU TOOK YOUR POLITICAL QUIZ YOU CAME OUT TO BE A RIGHT CONCERVATIVE NOW HOW DID THAT HAPPEN.ARE YOU 100% LIBERTARION OR 100% RIGHT CONCERVATIVE. YOU PRAISED THE SHIT OUT OF THIS PRESIDENT BACK DURING THE ELECTION AND THEN SOME AFTER AND YOU SAID GIVE HIM A CHANCE HE WILL LEAD THE WAY,SO TELL ME WHAT HAPPEN FOR HIM TO FALL FLAT ON HIS FACE AND HOW COULD OF YOU BEEN SO WRONG ON HIM.

[trip]

Re: Closer than ever...

How, did it happen, I answered a quiz, it came out how it came out, I have no idea how the quiz works or even if it's a good indicator of anything.

good questions

you're average politicains campaign is thus, "I know what the problems are, I can fix them, vote for me" thus, they always poing to what is wrong, which is obvious, which all agree upon, and take a flyer on that they will produce

present day, that gig is up, no one believes that anymore

obama, whether he deduced that or just got lucky campaigned on "Change We Can Believe In", and had 52% of folks who were negative on Hilary

thus, most folks really want nothing to do with the clintons

Obama came in and brought alot of Clintons government workers with him, first thing that wasn't change folks could believe in. Second, is finance reform. You pass tarp in a weekend, one year later not one financial reform. Third, health care, he didn't run on mandated, universal health care, he was very neutral on it, whereas Hilary and hair guy were both, universal 100% completely.

During a crisis, unemployment and financial dissaray, majority believes he should be neck deep in solving that problem first and foremost.

He's basically gone straight down tried and true unanimous congressional and senate path on both major problems. Recession, you pass major stimulus, on healthcare you do something that has alot of pomp and circumstance and is just loophole city for the most part.

He ralled against lobbiest and as one can see it's been lobbiest love fest.

Perception is reality, george was 100% definitive in all he did, right or wrong, so in comparison obama looks like a total fence sitter in comparison.

He coninues to make little stupid dumb mistakes, like when he commented on the cops and that black guy in cambridge, and having some big announcement that they saved like 100 million dollars on some programs as part of costs savings, which is total spit.

In summary he has shown no real actions of significant change. I don't know if that's due to the hand he was dealt or how he plays things. So, my scorecard is disaapointment. He's done no harm, yet, nothing anyone can believe in, and he's most likely lost a good portion of his consensus because he won the presidency with a most effective "call to arms" which is at the emotional peak of a speech, you rally folks to actions, storm the beaches, win the game, take the hill. He hit the emotional peak of many, and I'm trying to figure out how too say this, we've hit the beach and he seems to be standing on the beach evaluating it, we're in the game at half time with a tie score and that is acceptable, we're a third up the hill he's in front and not giving directions on how to take it fast and quick and definitively.

You can break a life of a leader down into 4 categories, note it takes alot of luck and discipline for anyone to make it too the top, when they get there and what they do:

1. Loves Power, doesn't know how too lead, talks big, takes credit for all, blames when things go wrong, or has execuses.

2. Reaches pinacle, and just lies low. Doesn't make waves, and is happy too delegate, and do all the tried and true, status quo stuff, and no changes happen.

3. The good guy, who everyone likes. He takes credit for anything positive, rolls with the negatives, yet, reality is they are very visible, but also do not make waves, and actually prefers status quo.

4. Change Makers. Vision oriented. Always points way forward and why, and points out what must be monitored and why to show actionable results.

Now, good or bad, George Bush is a 3 by nature, and flipped in a weekend for 4. Now, there is great disagreement on his vision and implementation and monitoring, yet, he did hit it, and not quit it.

So, my best guess on general consensus of Obama is the believe in that they voted in a 4, and he's showing to be a 3. Thus, a huge perception gap.

[FUZO]

Re: Closer than ever...

In summary he has shown no real actions of significant change. I don't know if that's due to the hand he was dealt

Now trip are you seriously going to use those words "I don't know if that's due to the hand he was dealt" are you refering to bush if so thats a crock of shit. If so then we can keep going back down the line to other presidents.He wanted the stimulis,the omnibus all the pork and barrel and went back on every campaign promise and lied.He camopaigned to be a centerest and lied because he was all left all the way



tell me this after you answer the above stuff,what GRADE do you give him

[trip]

Re: Closer than ever...

fuzo,

obviously we disagree on things, imho, bush will go down as one of the worst presidents in history because of his economic record, the simple fact he allowed wall street bankers 40-1 leverage in aug of 2004, which led to TARP, which is in fact a george bush devised and approved plan and began being implemented before obama set foot in the whitehouse, i have no desire to re-visit this debate

i give him a Pass, on a Pass Fail basis

whatever you believe is fine, imho, what is going on is 100% related to home prices, the government needs home prices to stay here or go up, or counties and states will go bankrupt because a large portion of there income is in real estate taxes, if home prices went down another 20% things would go kablewey

banks are being recapitalized by allowing them to borrow money at zero and lend at 4% back to government on treasuries, this money is being stockpiled for more foreclosures now that option arm mortgages are being re-set

by re-flating commodities are going to sky-rocket and cripple profits and spending again, i got oil around 120 year end, and copper going too 5 bucks, and food prices ramping hard

like i've plainly stated he is taking the tried and true solutions and using them so no one cries foul, this will just prolong the whole fiatasco

[horsepwr]

Re: Closer than ever...

I thought a libertarian is against all that leftist government jazz, "the gubment should take care of this, the gubment should take care of that" bs.
I know a right conservative is supposed to be against big government, so I'm just wondering how any libertarian would vote Obama. Anyone that can think, knew Obama is all about government. radical left.
Also, from what I gather, the libertarian view would be anything but, 'I wanna see this whole thing play out.'...'business as usual', but no big deal??? Pretty passive, and progressive, for a libertarian or right conservative on massive government expansion and taxation.

[FUZO]

Re: Closer than ever...

fuzo,

obviously we disagree on things, imho, bush will go down as one of the worst presidents in history because of his economic record, the simple fact he allowed wall street bankers 40-1 leverage in aug of 2004, which led to TARP, which is in fact a george bush devised and approved plan and began being implemented before obama set foot in the whitehouse, i have no desire to re-visit this debate

i give him a Pass, on a Pass Fail basis

whatever you believe is fine, imho, what is going on is 100% related to home prices, the government needs home prices to stay here or go up, or counties and states will go bankrupt because a large portion of there income is in real estate taxes, if home prices went down another 20% things would go kablewey

banks are being recapitalized by allowing them to borrow money at zero and lend at 4% back to government on treasuries, this money is being stockpiled for more foreclosures now that option arm mortgages are being re-set

by re-flating commodities are going to sky-rocket and cripple profits and spending again, i got oil around 120 year end, and copper going too 5 bucks, and food prices ramping hard

like i've plainly stated he is taking the tried and true solutions and using them so no one cries foul, this will just prolong the whole fiatasco

TRIP YOU WANT TO BLAME BUSH FOR THE ECONOMY THATS FINE BUT THIS NEW SCUM BAG PRESIDENT HAS OUT SPENT BUSH AND HAS CREATED MORE DEBT THAT BUSH HAS. YOU DO REALIZE THAT CORRECT.TRIP I WOULD IMAGINE YOU WOULD GIVE A FAIL TO BUSH ON HIS ECONOMY BUT HOW COULD YOU GIVE BLOJAMA A PASS ON HIS ECONOMY AND HOW MUCH DEBT HE HAS CREATED.BUSH DID A STIMULIS THAT SUCKED AND THE DUMB ASS NOW DID THE SAME THING AND THEN THE OMNUBUS AND ALL THE OTHER STUFF AND FAILED.OK SINCE I HAVE TO BE PERCISE


WHAT DO YOU GIVE BLOJAMA ON HIS ECONOMY

AND DO YOU SEE REID BRIBING OTHER SENATORS BY GIVNG THEM MONEY DO YOU ADMIT THAT TO GET THERE VOTE.

WAIT ONE MORE THING. DO YOU AGREE THAT THE DEMS WILL LOSE BADLY IN THE RACES IN 2010

[JsJs24]

Re: Closer than ever...

How, did it happen, I answered a quiz, it came out how it came out, I have no idea how the quiz works or even if it's a good indicator of anything.

good questions


So, my best guess on general consensus of Obama is the believe in that they voted in a 4, and he's showing to be a 3. Thus, a huge perception gap.

Trip you laid out some very good points but I was pretty certain to all of them before he even got elected. One must look to the track record, and Obama's was big government all the way, the Chicago Way, surrounded himself with Marxists and other radicals (that one makes me sick), and he said he would fundamentally transform the USA. Well, that is what he is trying to do, and this is because he feels we are inferior to the European countries of this world.

[JsJs24]

Re: Closer than ever...

fuzo,

obviously we disagree on things, imho, bush will go down as one of the worst presidents in history because of his economic record, the simple fact he allowed wall street bankers 40-1 leverage in aug of 2004, which led to TARP, which is in fact a george bush devised and approved plan and began being implemented before obama set foot in the whitehouse, i have no desire to re-visit this debate

i give him a Pass, on a Pass Fail basis

whatever you believe is fine, imho, what is going on is 100% related to home prices, the government needs home prices to stay here or go up, or counties and states will go bankrupt because a large portion of there income is in real estate taxes, if home prices went down another 20% things would go kablewey

First of all, Bush will go down as one of the worst because liberals write the textbooks and run the school system. Pretty disgusting really, my brother who is a professor tells me that he has to watch what he writes in his journals and keep his conservative views concealed often or he will never get tenure. He was actually told to change his dissertation by most of the professors he had in the program. Thus, it is evident to me that teachers dictate how history will be told.

As for the home prices, well it did all start with that but now the problem is much broader. The next big wave of foreclosures will not only be from the arms that will increase next year, real estate that was used for businesses is going to have a huge impact when the leaseholders cannot pay their leases. Here in Vegas we have strips of new stores that were developed and never even opened any of them. The stores are all brand new and just sitting there. This will not last. But anyway, the problem is mostly due to the housing crisis, yet this president and his Keynesian ways are worsening the situation. Businesses are afraid to hire for fear of tax increases and more government mandates like health care.

We have a president who knows nothing of the private sector trying to fix a recession . And he doesn't even hire people for his staff with business experience. They showed how many members of his administration have real world business experience compared to other admins, and his was a mere 10% compared to 30-70% for all others.

[JsJs24]

Re: Closer than ever...

I thought a libertarian is against all that leftist government jazz, "the gubment should take care of this, the gubment should take care of that" bs.
I know a right conservative is supposed to be against big government, so I'm just wondering how any libertarian would vote Obama. Anyone that can think, knew Obama is all about government. radical left.
Also, from what I gather, the libertarian view would be anything but, 'I wanna see this whole thing play out.'...'business as usual', but no big deal??? Pretty passive, and progressive, for a libertarian or right conservative on massive government expansion and taxation.

I do not know of any libertarians who voted for this president. Most of the ones I know voted for Ron Paul and some for John McCain, though those are the ones that are really republicans but call themselves libertarians.

Obama is the farthest thing from what any true libertarian wants as a president. This is not debatable it is a fact. Obama = big government, libertarians desire minimum government.