A new country???

[daved150]

Re: A new country???

I guess so but that was not my intention. I'm just giving you my opinion. I think when people identify themselves with groups of people based on ethnicity it can bring strong emotions to a topic that should be more easily viewed objectively. How can you be proud of your heritage without seeing it as a superior heritage or at least seeing someone else's as harmful. Look at the middle east. Many problems over there could be more easily solved if people stopped identifying themselves with their "heritage" of Persian, Palestinian, Jewish, etc. descent and started thinking of themselves as individuals. The justification for holding a grudge against an ethnicity that "mistreated" the ethnicity you identify yourself with is emotionally investing in something that is giving you nothing but bitterness in return.



What media does not suggest the white man is an evil doer simply because he was more civilized and technologically advanced than the Indians, who are portrayed in a more romantic fashion as having "respected" their land. What nomadic tribe wouldn't have met this so called "respected" criteria; it's not respect, they just didn't have the advances beyond modified sticks and stones - so the decisions they faced were not as controversial.



This analogy does not fit.
The Indians were nomadic and were not civilized in law or rights. They would not have had a house and if they did they wouldn't let you have one next to it. And if you bought a house, fenced your land and some guy came over in a cow hide skirt on a horse and said you were on his property and you asked him where his property ended and he replied from the shore to as far as you can see. You'd tell him to get lost too. War was inevitable. It was a clash of civilizations. Anglo's had a legal system and the Indian had a weather route.



You don't think the Indians lied, killed and enslaved? They weren't mainly peaceful, they were militarily inferior and brutal.

Muslim extremist are a very proud people too, doesn't make them any more appealing to me. This slogan that they only took what was need is misleading, again they were nomadic; that's how you act when you are hunting, gathering and moving with the seasons. I seriously doubt thy needed all the bison they would run off of the cliffs.

Your romanticizing the idea of the Native Americans - they were uncivilized humans.

i hate when you break it all up like that!! lol..i want to reply to everything you said but its hard.
ok...i am, in part indian. i am sorry you cannot be proude of your heritage...either that, or you think your herritage is superior. i dont think i'm superior and i'm still proud. i dont know why you dont understand that, but it's cool. also...i'm not really that bitter until i meet someone who is, in my opinion, un-edjucated on the subject. i read the same books as you did in high school. i seen the same movies. i've also been involved in programs sponsered by the various trible nations and heard and read diff. accounts. on what info do you draw your opinions? obviously, like me, you were not there....

i could have had the house...you probobly couldnt have
so...the guy who comes here with the most might, makes the laws?...no, wait..your not civilized unless you adhere to a bunch of laws?..wait...your legal system is the only one legal?..i dont get this...are you saying the indians had no laws for there tribes? they had no right or wrong? no crime or punishment? or just not the laws you wanted?

in bold^ were do you get this from...thats news to me! they were NOT mainly peaceful? tell me where do you pull that from? (i also dont think Custer would agree that they were "militarily inferior". shorter in numbers by then, yes.) dude...the biggest prob is that most tribes felt they could live with the white man. peacefully. they were wrong. THAT thinking was inferior. the cherokee's peaceful stance was inferior. the blackfoot, crow, seminole (just to name a few) knew better. was tired of the pushing. tired of the raping and pilaging. and they became the savage the white man was using to justify their killing. what came first, the chicken or the egg? in this case...it was white man's taking.
i'm romanticizing native americans?...no..i'm trying to educate the un-educated.

what makes YOUR laws...YOUR way of doing things and YOUR life any more important than others? why does being "nomadic" equate, in your opinion, to a lesser being? Mr personal freedoms is only for the personal freedoms of the few? the many? the stronger? the new?..it appears not all people do or should be alotted those personal freedoms.
why do you HAVE to buy a house? why do you HAVE to rope your land? what made it YOUR land to rope off. cause YOU said it was? you baught it? from who?
dude...when that first guy said "this is mine...this land i take for me!!" did you ever think he actually may have been taking someone else's shyt? no? why, becouse the REAL owner didnt speak the same language? becouse he didnt plot his land on paper and name it like those other guys? you dont think the individual tribes didnt know what was who's?...
just becouse it was different, didnt mean it was wrong.

[kite]

Re: A new country???

Wow this thing got goin huh? Dave, I got it from Fox news and then did a quick search and read a little more.
At first I thought "good for them" but then again it's not so good. The tax money the US gov't would lose as a result, not to mention the embarrassment would make it impossible. As T mentioned, Emminent Domain would be used, and if they persisted then the National Gaurd would almost certainly be called in and possibly other military action taken. I wonder if they are really serious or just making a point to get the govt's attention for whatever reason. It could get real ugly real fast.

[DJDIGGLER]

Re: A new country???

.no..i'm trying to educate the un-educated.

The shoe is on the other foot. Now you know how I feel all the time when I'm debating! HAHAHAHA!!! Karma's a beotch!

[Klash]

Re: A new country???

i hate when you break it all up like that!! lol..i want to reply to everything you said but its hard.
ok...i am, in part indian. i am sorry you cannot be proude of your heritage...either that, or you think your herritage is superior. i dont think i'm superior and i'm still proud. i dont know why you dont understand that, but it's cool. also...i'm not really that bitter until i meet someone who is, in my opinion, un-edjucated on the subject. i read the same books as you did in high school. i seen the same movies. i've also been involved in programs sponsered by the various trible nations and heard and read diff. accounts. on what info do you draw your opinions? obviously, like me, you were not there....

That's right, like you I was not there but both of us are part of a legal system based around the idea of natural rights. This system was not created by the American Indians, they were centuries behind - practicing tribalism. I do not value any European heritage more than my Indian heritage - I do not let my ethnicity define me or my opinions of anyone else. But I do value the protection of freedom. I don't see how a roaming civilization can mesh with agricultural civilization. I see the complexity but would you prefer to live under the Indian's society, that valued the tribe over the individual. I am sure you could find many instances where "white men" were victims and they gave you freedom - yet, you are empathetic towards the Indians and see them as victims.

i could have had the house...you probobly couldnt have
so...the guy who comes here with the most might, makes the laws?...no, wait..your not civilized unless you adhere to a bunch of laws?..wait...your legal system is the only one legal?..i dont get this...are you saying the indians had no laws for there tribes? they had no right or wrong? no crime or punishment? or just not the laws you wanted?

No, the guys who come here, plotted, surveyed and recorded land ownership to individuals serves my rational interest and freedom. The Indians did not record land ownership - tribes just declared what ever they could militarily control. Force vs. freedom. I choose freedom. If that would have been the Indians fine but it wasn't.

in bold^ were do you get this from...thats news to me! they were NOT mainly peaceful? tell me where do you pull that from? (i also dont think Custer would agree that they were "militarily inferior". shorter in numbers by then, yes.) dude...the biggest prob is that most tribes felt they could live with the white man. peacefully. they were wrong. THAT thinking was inferior. the cherokee's peaceful stance was inferior. the blackfoot, crow, seminole (just to name a few) knew better. was tired of the pushing. tired of the raping and pilaging. and they became the savage the white man was using to justify their killing. what came first, the chicken or the egg? in this case...it was white man's taking.

Because they were militarily inferior does not mean they could not win a battle or cause damage. The fact you won't recognize that they were militarily inferior shows your biased beliefs about them.

i'm romanticizing native americans?...no..i'm trying to educate the un-educated.

I am open to being educated but I doubt that you have any information that could change the philosophical principle that Indians had a Monarch style of government, were tribal and nomadic, in which none of these are friendly to individual freedom.

what makes YOUR laws...YOUR way of doing things and YOUR life any more important than others? why does being "nomadic" equate, in your opinion, to a lesser being? Mr personal freedoms is only for the personal freedoms of the few? the many? the stronger? the new?..it appears not all people do or should be alotted those personal freedoms.
why do you HAVE to buy a house? why do you HAVE to rope your land? what made it YOUR land to rope off. cause YOU said it was? you baught it? from who?
dude...when that first guy said "this is mine...this land i take for me!!" did you ever think he actually may have been taking someone else's shyt? no? why, becouse the REAL owner didnt speak the same language? becouse he didnt plot his land on paper and name it like those other guys? you dont think the individual tribes didnt know what was who's?...
just becouse it was different, didnt mean it was wrong.

Same as above.

[horsepwr]

Re: A new country???

i hate when you break it all up like that!! lol..i want to reply to everything you said but its hard.
.

lmao..I was just laughing so hard that my daughter started laughing too from the living room. You got this serious debate and you had to take a second to tell him that...but I'm with ya. It makes ya have to open up another window and do a bunch of copying & pasting and shyt and you have to make sure the quotes are right and all. Klash makes ya have to work to acknowledge and reply to each section,lol.
I'm gonna get back to where I left off now.

[daved150]

Re: A new country???

i most certainly see them as the victom. no...i would not like to live in that society, and will even go as far as saying the system we live under is better than the system they lived under. i'm sure their system would have progressed, but in general i like the system i live under now.
what i dont think you understand is the problem i have...the whole "we give them so much, thats why they kill themselves" arguement that mandarb presented and you agreed with! i also dont like the "we didnt do anything" angle...they were fuked. they were provoked. dont give me the "they were savages" bullshyt either...put you in the same corner and a savage you'd become!

well...just becouse you "record" it...dosnt make it yours! i dont want to go into this becouse thats not my main problem with your view..it's the "fuk them, what are they whinning about?" attitude i had a prob. with.

ok...i'm biased. whatever. but, i will have to admit they were militaraly inferior, ATLEAST, for the simple fact that they didnt realize they were in a fight for their existance. they were poorly organized among the nations and didnt come together to fight the common enemy. which made it fairly easy to devide and concur them...having said that, i'm still biased, lol.

i didnt realize you thaught i was arguing about them being nomads. i didnt realize this was a "personal freedom" argument....i fail to see were personal freedom and mandarbs statement, that you agreed with, were a "personal freedom" statement.
"when you receive so much for doing nothing it does not intill a sense of pride/accomplishment."
quoted from mandarb.
this implied that becouse the native americans are being given so much, they commit suicide....can you explain were the personal freedom angle came into this?

my ethnicity does not define me. but, i wont ignore it either! am i proud? yep...you should've picked up by now that i'm a proude motha fuker...but so are you and most others on here!

[daved150]

Re: A new country???

klash...now, you and me go way back! ya know?..years! remember that time in 'nam, you saved my life?..ya know i luv ya brotha, and would never stear ya wrong. but i feel this is a good time to bring something up...the "personal freedom" thing..brother...'cuz, broz...you gotta reserve that shyt once in awhile...keep that fuker down a bit. i mean, you know, you can have your finger on the trigger and shyt, but keep that fuker holstered! you come out all jesse james n'shyt, blast off that "personal freedom" hand cannon all over the place...it's just gonna become white noise man! people be all, lookin around 'nshyt, "what was that?..", "i dunno"..."maybe klash blasting off his personal freedom hand cannon"..."oh"...you dont want that brother...just reserve that shyt a little...just some advise from your brotha from anotha motha! ya know i luv ya

[daved150]

Re: A new country???

klash...now, you and me go way back! ya know?..years! remember that time in 'nam, you saved my life?..ya know i luv ya brotha, and would never stear ya wrong, but i feel this is a good time to bring something up...the "personal freedom" thing..brother...'cuz, broz...you gotta reserve that shyt once in awhile...keep that fuker down a bit. i mean, you know, you can have your finger on the trigger and shyt, but keep that fuker holstered! you come out all jesse james n'shyt, blast off that "personal freedom" hand cannon all over the place...it's just gonna become white noise man! people be all, lookin around 'nshyt, "what was that?..", "i dunno"..."maybe klash blasting off his personal freedom hand cannon"..."oh"...you dont want that brother...just reserve that shyt a little...just some advise from your brotha from anotha motha! ya know i luv ya

[Klash]

Re: A new country???

klash...now, you and me go way back! ya know?..years! remember that time in 'nam, you saved my life?..ya know i luv ya brotha, and would never stear ya wrong. but i feel this is a good time to bring something up...the "personal freedom" thing..brother...'cuz, broz...you gotta reserve that shyt once in awhile...keep that fuker down a bit. i mean, you know, you can have your finger on the trigger and shyt, but keep that fuker holstered! you come out all jesse james n'shyt, blast off that "personal freedom" hand cannon all over the place...it's just gonna become white noise man! people be all, lookin around 'nshyt, "what was that?..", "i dunno"..."maybe klash blasting off his personal freedom hand cannon"..."oh"...you dont want that brother...just reserve that shyt a little...just some advise from your brotha from anotha motha! ya know i luv ya

LMAO!
The thing is I like to reduce arguments down to the primary beliefs that are causing the clash. That's why so many of today's political debates never get anywhere - they aren't getting to the philosophical differences; that's where the battle needs to be waged. My moral code is built around man's life and my happiness, which is very dependent on my freedom. Many times people unintentionally/subconsciously have beliefs that contradict their more core beliefs - I just try and point that $hit out with my personal freedom hand cannon. If people want to maintain the contradiction that's cool - I just point out what I see.

i most certainly see them as the victom. no...i would not like to live in that society, and will even go as far as saying the system we live under is better than the system they lived under. i'm sure their system would have progressed, but in general i like the system i live under now.
what i dont think you understand is the problem i have...the whole "we give them so much, thats why they kill themselves" arguement that mandarb presented and you agreed with! i also dont like the "we didnt do anything" angle...they were fuked. they were provoked. dont give me the "they were savages" bullshyt either...put you in the same corner and a savage you'd become!

Never once, did I associate myself with the Europeans/Americans by stating "'we'" give the Indians so much" or "'we' didn't do anything". My family is part Cherokee, my great grandmother was "full blooded". You made that divide.

I think what Mandarb stated could definitely be a variable for a high suicide rate, in any culture.

well...just becouse you "record" it...dosnt make it yours! i dont want to go into this becouse thats not my main problem with your view..it's the "fuk them, what are they whinning about?" attitude i had a prob. with.

With your philosophy, no one owns land, except the Indians who respect it by owning it with brute force. That one belief is in contradiction with so many things that you value. If recording land doesn't make it yours, no one has rights to land, if no one has rights to land, no one would improve land, if no one improves land, there is no agriculture, mining, I could go on but you get the point.

I just don't see the issue as one sided as you. Yeah, I'm sure there was some injustice towards native Americans but I know there was some injustice towards the white man too and thankfully the white man won.

ok...i'm biased. whatever. but, i will have to admit they were militaraly inferior, ATLEAST, for the simple fact that they didnt realize they were in a fight for their existance. they were poorly organized among the nations and didnt come together to fight the common enemy. which made it fairly easy to devide and concur them...having said that, i'm still biased, lol.

LOL, well at least you admit it
Before they were fighting the white man they were fighting each other over territory. They were already divided.

i didnt realize you thaught i was arguing about them being nomads. i didnt realize this was a "personal freedom" argument....i fail to see were personal freedom and mandarbs statement, that you agreed with, were a "personal freedom" statement.
"when you receive so much for doing nothing it does not intill a sense of pride/accomplishment."
quoted from mandarb.
this implied that becouse the native americans are being given so much, they commit suicide....can you explain were the personal freedom angle came into this?

Here's the way I see it. People either believe the universe is subjective or objective to man, dependent or independent of man. That man obtains his knowledge by mysticism or reasoning and all mans other thoughts are a result of these beliefs. You can take almost any argument down to these things. Why mess around with trivial topics when you can get down to the core of the argument.

my ethnicity does not define me. but, i wont ignore it either! am i proud? yep...you should've picked up by now that i'm a proude motha fuker...but so are you and most others on here!

I don't ignore my ethnicity; it's good to know for medical records.

[daved150]

Re: A new country???

DAMN...i hate that "lets split up the post and re-post it 1 piece at a time so dave cant answer that shyt" shyt!

"Never once, did I associate myself with the Europeans/Americans by stating "'we'" give the Indians so much" or "'we' didn't do anything". My family is part Cherokee, my great grandmother was "full blooded". You made that divide.

I think what Mandarb stated could definitely be a variable for a high suicide rate, in any culture. "

(ok...theres GOT to be a better way to do this!!!)
i dont agree that if you've given someone sooo muuuuch, they'd kill themselves. but, if you want to test this theroy, start signing over your shyt, and i'll let you know when i'm about to start looking for a rope! that whole argument is stupid. i realize you didnt say "we"...it was the blanket statement, then your agreement i took issue with...i made what divide?...by the looks of it, i'm about as much indian as you...what divide did i make. that i didnt agree that they (native americans) are killing themselves becouse they are being so well "gifted" by the government? or, was i just not supposed to have an opinion on the subject, that in any way contradicts yours? i'm just not as vinilla as you.

"With your philosophy, no one owns land, except the Indians who respect it by owning it with brute force. That one belief is in contradiction with so many things that you value. If recording land doesn't make it yours, no one has rights to land, if no one has rights to land, no one would improve land, if no one improves land, there is no agriculture, mining, I could go on but you get the point."
not saying, at this point, i'd ever go back....but, if that was the way it was, you and i wouldnt know the difference. so, either way, i'm fine with how it turned out. EITHER WAY, i woulda been fine.

"LOL, well at least you admit it
Before they were fighting the white man they were fighting each other over territory. They were already divided."
yea...i can admit it, in some cases, discussions, i'm biased. who's not?
and your right...they were fuked out of the gate...too bad.

"I don't ignore my ethnicity; it's good to know for medical records."
kinda sad you dont take more pride in yourself bro...dont fret...i think your a cool dude, and i'm proud to call ya a friend. see? ever i can take pride in knowing you! quit being so vinilla!

[daved150]

Re: A new country???

^that shyt took ENTIRELY to long!! you made me burn the pancakes!!! lol

[Klash]

Re: A new country???

i dont agree that if you've given someone sooo muuuuch, they'd kill themselves. but, if you want to test this theroy, start signing over your shyt, and i'll let you know when i'm about to start looking for a rope! that whole argument is stupid. i realize you didnt say "we"...it was the blanket statement, then your agreement i took issue with...i made what divide?...by the looks of it, i'm about as much indian as you...what divide did i make. that i didnt agree that they (native americans) are killing themselves becouse they are being so well "gifted" by the government? or, was i just not supposed to have an opinion on the subject, that in any way contradicts yours? i'm just not as vinilla as you.

kinda sad you dont take more pride in yourself bro...dont fret...i think your a cool dude, and i'm proud to call ya a friend. see? ever i can take pride in knowing you! quit being so vinilla!

When everything is handed to you, what have you accomplished - holding your hand out? How can anyone be proud of that? It's like getting a job because of affirmative action, how can you be proud of that? These people are eligible for hand outs from the ancestors that defeated their ancestors. It's like salting a wound. I don't see anything insulting about speculating whether this could result in a poor self-image or not.

Sad I don't take more pride in myself? I have very much pride. Mine just isn't dependent on things my ancestors did or didn't do. I can sympathize with hardships they went through but I don't see how I should be proud of myself for what they endured.


Do you like this method of response better?

[daved150]

Re: A new country???

much better method, lol...thanks bro.

ok...lets not get off into affirmative action...i agree with what your saying about that (affirm action) but i dont see the bodies stacking up from all the handouts.
i just cant connect the dot's between tribal reservations splitting casino (or whatever) proffits and suicide. i spent alot of time with seminole indians in immoklee fla and not one of those fukers seemed too depressed. they got checks for being born, more for getting married to another seminole in the tribe, then more for having kids! a family of 6 took in about 100k a yr, not to count if they had a job! (most worked for the tribe in some way or shape) and, i really dont remember them having a high rate of razorblade sales in their stores..i dont think the "handouts" are the blame for higher suicide rates for the less foturnate tribes that dont reap the gaming or entertainment rewards. (if there is a way to even know that compaired to another ethnic group in the world...seems VERY unlikely). i would blame lack of education first and for most.
oh...now i see your problem...your still a little fuked up. you think i'm implying that you should/shouldnt be proud of yourself for what they endured!! is that your deffinition of pride in ones ancestral past? no bro...be proud of THEM. without them, there's no you! without the choices they made, you'd have none to make. you should be proud of you for you, (i know thats your point), but it's ok to take pride in your heritage. (unless your an ancester of jeffery dahmer or some shyt...then you might want to not look back, ya know...just kinda let it go). i dont know too many people that would say they are not proud of their heritage in some way or another...your the first.

[daved150]

Re: A new country???

i'm gonna half to look into this "suicide rate" thing.. i just cant get past that...maybe the rate is drivin by the native americans that DONT get shyt!! yea, there's plenty out there. have you ever been to the cherokee reservation in ky.? dont talk to them about there many handouts, you'd probobly get scalped! they live BELOW poverty...they got shyt. and i know there's alot more out there like that....living past the bottom of the barrel, with no education, no medical, living worse than the crack heads pulling medicade and medicare! i could see their options might look narrow enough that they take the cowards way out...

[Klash]

Re: A new country???

much better method, lol...thanks bro.

ok...lets not get off into affirmative action...i agree with what your saying about that (affirm action) but i dont see the bodies stacking up from all the handouts.
i just cant connect the dot's between tribal reservations splitting casino (or whatever) proffits and suicide. i spent alot of time with seminole indians in immoklee fla and not one of those fukers seemed too depressed. they got checks for being born, more for getting married to another seminole in the tribe, then more for having kids! a family of 6 took in about 100k a yr, not to count if they had a job! (most worked for the tribe in some way or shape) and, i really dont remember them having a high rate of razorblade sales in their stores..i dont think the "handouts" are the blame for higher suicide rates for the less foturnate tribes that dont reap the gaming or entertainment rewards. (if there is a way to even know that compaired to another ethnic group in the world...seems VERY unlikely). i would blame lack of education first and for most.
oh...now i see your problem...your still a little fuked up. you think i'm implying that you should/shouldnt be proud of yourself for what they endured!! is that your deffinition of pride in ones ancestral past? no bro...be proud of THEM. without them, there's no you! without the choices they made, you'd have none to make. you should be proud of you for you, (i know thats your point), but it's ok to take pride in your heritage. (unless your an ancester of jeffery dahmer or some shyt...then you might want to not look back, ya know...just kinda let it go). i dont know too many people that would say they are not proud of their heritage in some way or another...your the first.




i'm gonna half to look into this "suicide rate" thing.. i just cant get past that...maybe the rate is drivin by the native americans that DONT get shyt!! yea, there's plenty out there. have you ever been to the cherokee reservation in ky.? dont talk to them about there many handouts, you'd probobly get scalped! they live BELOW poverty...they got shyt. and i know there's alot more out there like that....living past the bottom of the barrel, with no education, no medical, living worse than the crack heads pulling medicade and medicare! i could see their options might look narrow enough that they take the cowards way out...

See that doesn't make any sense to me. You pick and choose the heritage your going to recognize and be proud of. If it includes someone like Jeffrey Dahmer, you let it go. If it includes someone you admire, then it's part of your proud past

My dad tried to instill the Cherokee pride, I just didn't go for it. I guess he had a similar belief to you. Hell, I'm probably more German than Cherokee. $hit my ancestors are always getting defeated, no wonder I don't practice heritage pride.



The handouts are the initial problem but it's dependency that I think could be the ultimate problem. When your whole income and discounted lifestyle is tied to your tribe. What would happen when you suddenly came to a belief that you did not like the tribe, the environment, the criteria for your benefits, the culture, the people, the bureaucracy, etc. The tribe is all you've ever known but your sick of it and your current lifestyle outside of the tribe would be unobtainable. You hate your dependency on the tribe but you would equally hate the idea of an inferior lifestyle outside of the tribe. No matter what tribe your talking about, this could be a common crossroad for the individual Indians in them; put their pride of heritage on that same decision and it just compounds it; now they would feel shame for even considering leaving the tribe.