Atheism and Thanksgiving

[mandarb11]

Re: Atheism and Thanksgiving

[QUOTE=PL456;819209]Well, regarding human logic and reasoning. This is not to be relied on too much. You guys' own political arguments about the current President (a human) and his apparent glowing errors are one example. There are myriad examples in medicine--didnt the best doctors at the time bleed George Washington to death, believing this was a way to relieve his body of various malicious "humors"?
Wasnt it Plato or Aristotle (I dont care to google it presently) the one who posited the earth was at the center of the universe? These are examples of "great minds" of the time. Humans are fallible, feeble, and totally have totally no control over life. Human opinion and our body of knowledge constantly change, things are modified, removed, adapted. A belief in God, and a living relationship with Him will strengthen you beyond belief. This base does not change. So-called "rational" people demand answers and proof. Faith is just that--belief in something that you cannot prove. There are, however, many examples of miracles in the Bible. Jesus appeared to many after His death. He performed many miracles prior to His death. How can these be explained? I believe this is a challenge to many who are non believers. They cannot, will not relinquish their falsely-held belief that they are in control of their lives. Having faith means you admit you are not in control, and you need help and strength from God. We all need this.

Now, people make the mistake of looking at what others do in the name of religion, what humans do, that are often-times incorrect and self-motivated. People look at the actions of these people who claim to be religious, and therefore, are assumed to be living exactly by the book. When people that are non believers see someone that is spiritual make an error, it is easy to jump in and say--See! I knew that religion was no good!!! This is, IMO, a form of self-assurance. They are trying to tell themselves they are right, and assuage their own insecurities. Remember, people do things and people are fallible. People make mistakes--God doesnt. Dont look at the person--look at God. Just listen to what people say and go read the Book and see for yourself. Dont think all the televanglists and others are speaking directly from God. We are taught to compare what they say with the scripture. Remember friends, in the Book it does state that sooner or later, every knee shall bow. Sooner or later, you will call on God. This is a fact.[/QUOTE]

OK where to start, if logic and reason are not to be relied upon what other faculty shall we use to make our decisions? Luck? Imagine disregarding this most important method of making decisions, in the past religious ideas were passed down and when something came about like say the plague, it was religious minded people that proclaimes that it was god punishing everyone and so nothing was done to discover the method by which people became sick and literrally 3/4 of Europes population was decimated. Same goes for the detriment of knowledge, the idea that the galaxy was geocentric (earth was at the centre) was an idea purpetuated by the catholic church and anyone that said anything against it was branded a heritic!

Assuming one has the truth without ever looking for it is one of the best ways to ensure that knowledge will not progress. Yes medicine and "great minds" have made mistakes but this was usually due to previous misconceptions, often spurred by religious ideas. The scientific method is such that one uses first off our 5 senses to make observations, through those observations we can make reasonable conclusions, how else would you have us come to any new ideas? prayer?

Now you are correct the very definition of faith is to believe without proof, wich begs the question in the first place how did you gain your knowledge to say there was a god or that the religion you put your faith in in the first place was the correct one?

Miricles in the bible are just that writings in a book. Did you know that there wre no contempory christian authors that wrote about Jesus! There are no contempory pagan authors that wrote of Jesus! The gospels we know were written between 80 CE and 140 CE. We know this due to writing styles and references to events that occurred much later in history than when they are traditionally prescribed to. All the authors that mention Jesus or even Christians that were pagan were born after jesus was already supposedly dead (pliny the younger, Josephus...). therefore the miricles that you describe are no different than the miricles described in Klashes statement, Harry Potter. there is no proof that Jesus existed, read my other post about how jesus's magical properties were preceeded by countless others before his idea came about.

Have you seen a miricle or proof of a god or gods? I have not but i am sure that if you want to you can make any good thing that happens in life into a miricle but that is not like watching someone walk on water (although I think Chris angel did it), or resurect the dead (its called cardio/pulminary resusitation) no one is privy to such occurances.

That old idea that everyone that is going to die will eventually call on god is a false statement as well. I know from personal experience that when the time came, and my life was most assuradly over, I did not pray to anyone for deliverance. I accepted the fact that I was going to die said goodbye to my wife and children.........I am still here!

I might mention as well that this one belief system is just one among many. How do you then decide which is he correct religion (christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism......) or that even if you get the right religion that you have the right faith (Christian Orthodox, Roman catholicism, 2500 + sects of protestantism...). We all know there is no easy answer to this one.

And the fact that there are no people in this world that profess to a belief but follow that belief wholeheartedly is proof enough that no one really believes in gods/religion. If i beleived that 1. there was eternal paradise waiting for me and all I had to do was behave accordingly to gain this, how could i ever falter? 2. if this all poweful, all knowing god is watching over us, how could I ever do wrong? I would be afraid to! 3. All the representatives of the various faiths prove time and time again they are more evil than the people they are preaching too (cite, countless protestant preachers caught with drugs, hookers, in homosexual acts, Catholic preasts molesting children, the everyday faithful committing what they are taught sin after sin). It leaves one with the question if the faithful behave this way then what does it say about that religion.

[mandarb11]

Re: Atheism and Thanksgiving

Thanks for the summarized version.

I thought I smelt a little Marxism or Kantianism in there!

But seriously, I don't think Capitalism is correlated with infringing personal rights. I think it is the exact opposite actually. You cannot have any rights without the realization of property rights. Property is the manifestation of your past production that was dependent on the skills and ideas acquired prior to your ownership of that property. Once you have the government dictating to people what they can have rights too, you don't have property rights; it would be more accurate to put forward that you have leased rights from the state and this is where we are today. The government tells us what we can and cannot do even with our own bodies (implying we don't have ownership); our property is taxed (in many states) as if we were renting it and if we don't pay rent we can be evicted (implying we don't have ownership); our income is taken from our production to give to people (including nations) we don't even know and possibly oppose on many different levels.

Anything but Capitalism requires the initiation of force by government (other people) on individuals. Statism (fascism, socialism, communism) IMO, is another form of faith. It doesn't make rational since; it is contradicting and it is implemented through force. Yet many different forms of statism is supported and this is where statism is similar to religion.

I believe that freedom and reason are correlated and opposed to that is faith (and its synonyms) and force, which are also correlated. Those who rely on faith cannot persuade the rational; persuasion is only possible if someone submits to reason. The result is the faithful must resort to force, whether this is to enforce their morality that abortion or homosexuality is a sin or whether it is to enforce their morality that material accumulation is immoral.

Well yes there are some socialistic ideas in my writings but the idea of social justice has nothing to do with marx it is an idea that all things need to be tempered as we know that anything brought to extremes does not function well. You are correct statism in any form if detrimental to freedom, this has been shown throughout history. What you failed to include is that capitalism leads to the exact same scenario if left unchecked. I believe we are still distinguishing capitalism from democracy, as it seems from your post we are putting the two together, they are not. they are completely separate entities.

The government must be brought into being by democracy, the problem is that if the logical conclusion of unchecked capitalism is left unchecked, then it creates a wealthy base of the few, that end up having more say than the many (the poor). How well with wealth comes power, economic and political. that is why you will never see an average citizen that makes $30,000 a year make it to be a president. Once one has economic superiority, one has control of the populace (in the form of the media, being in the position of employers, etc) which in turn controls democracy. This is one aspect of the infringement of freedom that I am talking about. The other is that one loses choice when one becomes economically deficient. when one has to work long hours at low paying jobs it leaves little time for reflection, that is why there is very little voter turnout. The regular people that make up the majority of the population do not feel like they have any power to choose and so do not vote. Those that vote tend to be those with money, which again goes back to my argument about loss of freedom etc. It is not a simplistic occurrence, the degradation of rights comes about through many , the main one being loss of economic freedom brought about by unchecked capitalism.

That is why all things need checks and balances to function adequately. Unchecked capitalism is just as destructive as unchecked socialism. A healthy balance of both makes the most logical choice of systems. Socialism to protect peoples rights and freedoms (government) and capitalism to perpetuate progress (free markets).

[Klash]

Re: Atheism and Thanksgiving

Well yes there are some socialistic ideas in my writings but the idea of social justice has nothing to do with marx it is an idea that all things need to be tempered as we know that anything brought to extremes does not function well. You are correct statism in any form if detrimental to freedom, this has been shown throughout history. What you failed to include is that capitalism leads to the exact same scenario if left unchecked. I believe we are still distinguishing capitalism from democracy, as it seems from your post we are putting the two together, they are not. they are completely separate entities.

Social justice is another subjective phrase, that would be redundant if applying to rights. So the term is intended to mislead and is mostly referring to economic equally through redistribution of wealth and taxation of the successful. How is the government supported discrimination implemented? Though force and who determines what is socially just? The powerful, that have, more than likely, derived their power through the same means in which they take it - government (brute force) supported discrimination.

To support "social justice" you must support the use of force against one demographic in the name of another. The particular demographics are defined and endorsed by those in power. Making socialism a form of elitism.

The government must be brought into being by democracy, the problem is that if the logical conclusion of unchecked capitalism is left unchecked, then it creates a wealthy base of the few, that end up having more say than the many (the poor). How well with wealth comes power, economic and political. that is why you will never see an average citizen that makes $30,000 a year make it to be a president. Once one has economic superiority, one has control of the populace (in the form of the media, being in the position of employers, etc) which in turn controls democracy. This is one aspect of the infringement of freedom that I am talking about. The other is that one loses choice when one becomes economically deficient. when one has to work long hours at low paying jobs it leaves little time for reflection, that is why there is very little voter turnout. The regular people that make up the majority of the population do not feel like they have any power to choose and so do not vote. Those that vote tend to be those with money, which again goes back to my argument about loss of freedom etc. It is not a simplistic occurrence, the degradation of rights comes about through many , the main one being loss of economic freedom brought about by unchecked capitalism.

I agree that democracy and capitalism are two distinct forms of government. Democracy without restraint is nothing more than a legalized form of a mob rule.
Any form of government left unchecked would be anarchy. Capitalism is a form of government where government only protects individual rights.

Your statement about the rich controlling the masses, may appear to be correct but at best their attempts can only be to influence individuals. I think this is another modern day concern. People have recognized this attempt to influence behavior by the control of information and now people are severely skeptical of mass media, government and basically any entity in an authority position.

That is why all things need checks and balances to function adequately. Unchecked capitalism is just as destructive as unchecked socialism. A healthy balance of both makes the most logical choice of systems. Socialism to protect peoples rights and freedoms (government) and capitalism to perpetuate progress (free markets).

Capitalism is the only system that gives all individuals the same rights. It does not provide everyone with the same income but it does not use force and discriminate against its citizens.

[mandarb11]

Re: Atheism and Thanksgiving

I think we are on the same page there bro, we just need to work out all the details when we come to power! lol

Capitalism does not give any rights though I would argue, how can it there are no instructions within its preceps, essentially all it calls for is a free market, and let the chips fall where they may. Aside from that there is little structure to capitalism, it is an entity that is realy adaptive depending on how we make it.

Remember the only ones that can protect human rights is the government, capitalism is just a system of economics, and economics is an unfeeling idea that cares little for social rights. In the end it still needs an elected government to regulate people (that is essentially why we have governments to provide order). Capitalism gives the individual only the right to accumulate, what other rights does it bestow upon individuals?

[Klash]

Re: Atheism and Thanksgiving

Yes but Capitalism requires the protection of all its citizen's individual rights to function as Capitalism - so it does involve the government. You cannot have government providing medical insurance without it effecting the free market; this would apply to all industries. Once the government gets involved the invisible hand is adversely affected. Capitalism only requires a government to protect the individual rights of its citizens against force and fraud from other citizens and defense against a foreign nation.

Maybe our disagreement is with the definition of rights. We don't need a government to regulate people; we just need a government to protect people's natural rights, i.e. we own our lives and the production we produce with it. We don't have rights to anything else. If we make bad decisions and are left with no food and no shelter; that does not justify the government to steal from someone else's life and give it to us.

[mandarb11]

Re: Atheism and Thanksgiving

Ok I beleive we are starting to come to an agreement then. Capitalism with associated government control (not interference) is definatly a system that can work. Onto the medical field and being a Canadian, I beleive that health care is a right that is necessary to live a full and healthy life. The reason why our medicine and health care providers cost so much is due to capitalism, this makes medicine and health care so expensive that we have to rely on corrupt insurance companies to be able to afford health care that can be the difference between life and death. I think you will agree that we all have a right to life, therefore we all have the right to healthcare!

Ok so we have most of it worked out so you run for president of the US and I will become the prime minister of Canada we can start getting some things done around here! lol

[PL456]

Re: Atheism and Thanksgiving

I dont want to post what I want to post, in terms of a final question for klash and manbar on this topic. I think you guys may know what I would like to ask, but, I just cannot ask the question. Im afraid I may know the answer you guys may give and that is very disturbing to me. I pray that your eyes may be opened one day soon.

[Klash]

Re: Atheism and Thanksgiving

Ok I beleive we are starting to come to an agreement then. Capitalism with associated government control (not interference) is definatly a system that can work. Onto the medical field and being a Canadian, I beleive that health care is a right that is necessary to live a full and healthy life. The reason why our medicine and health care providers cost so much is due to capitalism, this makes medicine and health care so expensive that we have to rely on corrupt insurance companies to be able to afford health care that can be the difference between life and death. I think you will agree that we all have a right to life, therefore we all have the right to healthcare!

Ok so we have most of it worked out so you run for president of the US and I will become the prime minister of Canada we can start getting some things done around here! lol

Government operated health care? Think about this for a moment. Government is a monopoly on force. The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals and redefine "criminal". How can you intertwine government with health care and think it will make it better.

The best product for the most competitive price is what capitalism creates. But then liberals/socialists/commies/statists come in and say lets let the government carry health insurance for the elderly and the poor. Once that legislation is passed, the insurance companies just lost potentially millions of clients; the result premiums go up for non-poor and elderly people. Now lobbyist crusade to redefine poor and elderly because more and more people can't afford health insurance; which results in a downward spiral. At the same time the government is telling private health insurance companies that they must cover specific things like maternity leave, etc., even if the client doesn't need or want it; result premiums go up. At the same time the government tells pharmaceutical companies they must participate in a number clinical trials and meet certain research criteria before they can even apply for their drugs to be put on the market - at which point the fda can deny the drug simply because they want to; result pharmaceutical prices are artificially inflated, which also affect health insurance costs.

In other words the government gets so wrapped up in an industry that you have no choice but to turn that industry over to the government, like Canada did. But in no way can you say it was Capitalism that drove costs up - it was the veering away from capitalism that drove costs up. Canada's system will never get better. I know nothing about the specifics of Canada's healthcare system but I know it is built on a flawed philosophy. It defies who man is. Socialism doesn't work; even on the things you consider the most important. Canada's health care performance may be acceptable and justifiable to you now but do you think the brightest and best people will want to be a doctor in Canada? Doctors will be overworked and underpaid with additional resources being required to help them follow proper protocol set by government agencies; instead of health care. Patience will act entitled because they are entitled (by law) and doctors will be required to treat them. Well educated Doctors become just another bureaucratic B*tch, who's value will be determined by some legislator; and his skill is not part of the equation - just that he met a certain criteria to become a doctor. So the best doctor will eventually be paid the same as the worst. Doctors will get paid the same and have the same amount of patience whether their good, disrespectful, condescending and uncaring. Patience will go to the doctor for $hit they usually wouldn't go for because it's not their dime. There will never be enough clinics. Hospitals will be always too small.

Sorry to carry on but health care is to important to put in the governments hands.

[mandarb11]

Re: Atheism and Thanksgiving

I understand where you are coming from, but if healthcare is not a right that everyone deserves than you really can't argue that a human has a right to live. We need health care, and to make it a part of the economic system means it is privy to price changes, therefore eventually only the wealthy can afford it. I ask you this, your system sounds fine for the upper and middle class, but what about the lower classes (they make up the majority of the population) that have trouble putting enough food on the table, they shoul go without healthcare because they do not have an education and the ability to make a decent living. This is what I believe we need to government to protect. Yes doctors will often go where the wealth is but many do not wish to leave their home country to make a little more, they make enough as it is! So in your eyes how is the American health care system? do you think it is in the state that it is because the goverment has a hand in it (a pretty poor one if you ask me)? Is it right to leave life and death decisions in the hands of people that will make more profit if they do not cover your ailment? Because remember capitalism is about profit, so the more claims denied by insurance companies the more money they make! That is not a right to life then, the decision of some profiteer is always goin to be in the favour of making money, what do they care about the health of an individual. Americans have become so scared of any type of socialism due to the cold war and 60 years of indoctrination that anything social is evil. Remember McArthism, where anyone even suspected of socialistic ties was persecuted, there is freedom of choice for you.

Your world of pure capitalism sounds a little scary to me, my life is at the hands of someone that will make a profit by denying me health coverage, is not one I wish to be part of. In your system the only people that will be happy are rich healthy people, everyone else is screwed! lol

[mandarb11]

Re: Atheism and Thanksgiving

I dont want to post what I want to post, in terms of a final question for klash and manbar on this topic. I think you guys may know what I would like to ask, but, I just cannot ask the question. Im afraid I may know the answer you guys may give and that is very disturbing to me. I pray that your eyes may be opened one day soon.

Bro never be afraid to ask a question, I will always try to answer to the best of my ability. Do you think be athiets that we are evil scary people or something? We live in this world and so we have to make the best of it while we are here. I respect you and your opinion, I hope that you offer the same to me!

[Klash]

Re: Atheism and Thanksgiving

I understand where you are coming from, but if healthcare is not a right that everyone deserves than you really can't argue that a human has a right to live. We need health care, and to make it a part of the economic system means it is privy to price changes, therefore eventually only the wealthy can afford it. I ask you this, your system sounds fine for the upper and middle class, but what about the lower classes (they make up the majority of the population) that have trouble putting enough food on the table, they shoul go without healthcare because they do not have an education and the ability to make a decent living. This is what I believe we need to government to protect. Yes doctors will often go where the wealth is but many do not wish to leave their home country to make a little more, they make enough as it is! So in your eyes how is the American health care system? do you think it is in the state that it is because the goverment has a hand in it (a pretty poor one if you ask me)? Is it right to leave life and death decisions in the hands of people that will make more profit if they do not cover your ailment? Because remember capitalism is about profit, so the more claims denied by insurance companies the more money they make! That is not a right to life then, the decision of some profiteer is always goin to be in the favour of making money, what do they care about the health of an individual. Americans have become so scared of any type of socialism due to the cold war and 60 years of indoctrination that anything social is evil. Remember McArthism, where anyone even suspected of socialistic ties was persecuted, there is freedom of choice for you.

Your world of pure capitalism sounds a little scary to me, my life is at the hands of someone that will make a profit by denying me health coverage, is not one I wish to be part of. In your system the only people that will be happy are rich healthy people, everyone else is screwed! lol

The government as it is now helps perpetuate the poor. People that can't afford an education, a car or a place to live are rewarded for procreating with social programs. If these same people did not have incentive to be fruitful and multiply they would not have multiple kids when they didn't even have the means to care for themselves.

Governments role in a free society is to protect its citizens from force and fraud. If an insurance company denies a claim that you have been paying to be covered - that is fraud. I don't think the term "profit" is meant to cover the act of theft. I also believe insurance companies having access to peoples medical history is wrong. They should only have access to risky behavior - smoking would be an example.

I don't think Americans are scared of socialism; I think too many of them embrace it.

[Klash]

Re: Atheism and Thanksgiving

I dont want to post what I want to post, in terms of a final question for klash and manbar on this topic. I think you guys may know what I would like to ask, but, I just cannot ask the question. Im afraid I may know the answer you guys may give and that is very disturbing to me. I pray that your eyes may be opened one day soon.

PL456, it is only disturbing because of the belief system you hold.

I know that because I have had the benefit of truly holding both belief systems; theism and atheism. I truly do not possess a belief in the idea of the christian god, I fear no repercussions, from this "god", for lacking that belief.

What is interesting is how my beliefs impact my Christian family. All of a sudden the idea of hell and who goes there is bought back into the picture. I think Christians are so use to the idea of hell they never really sit back and think about it. If your thoughts of the holocaust is bad; hell is that with gasoline but never ending and who goes there but people that do not submit their reasoning out of coercion.

[straydoglogic]

Re: Atheism and Thanksgiving

im an atheist and thanksgiving is not a religious holiday..so it doesnt matter what you believe...its for giving thanks to your family and friends and those dear to you..and before the question arises about christmas..i celebrate that too as a time for family..not the birth of christ..we can all find meaning and appreciate these things without sharing the same beliefs...HAPPY FESTIVUS!!!!

[mandarb11]

Re: Atheism and Thanksgiving

im an atheist and thanksgiving is not a religious holiday..so it doesnt matter what you believe...its for giving thanks to your family and friends and those dear to you..and before the question arises about christmas..i celebrate that too as a time for family..not the birth of christ..we can all find meaning and appreciate these things without sharing the same beliefs...HAPPY FESTIVUS!!!!

Awesome bro, festivus now that is a real holiday! lol

[mandarb11]

Re: Atheism and Thanksgiving

The government as it is now helps perpetuate the poor. People that can't afford an education, a car or a place to live are rewarded for procreating with social programs. If these same people did not have incentive to be fruitful and multiply they would not have multiple kids when they didn't even have the means to care for themselves.

Governments role in a free society is to protect its citizens from force and fraud. If an insurance company denies a claim that you have been paying to be covered - that is fraud. I don't think the term "profit" is meant to cover the act of theft. I also believe insurance companies having access to peoples medical history is wrong. They should only have access to risky behavior - smoking would be an example.

I don't think Americans are scared of socialism; I think too many of them embrace it.

I agree that socialistic programs are greatly abused, but there are a few legit people that do require them. Old age pension is a perfect example of such a program, if it did not exist many of or elderly would be destitute. Unemployment insurance, another wonderful program. Now social welfare is a little different and that is where I agree wholeheartedly that people that cannot take care of themselves should not be bringing others into this world. The problem is if we punish the parent for behaving so, the child is the one that pays in the end. We need to figure out something to deal with this problem but it is a difficult aspect of social welfare that will never get fixed. Socialistic programs does breed laziness, and are abused tat is without question but they are still a necessary feature. Remember when people have nothing to lose they usually resort to crime. They are few choices open to people in this position.