Atheism and Thanksgiving

[Klash]

Re: Atheism and Thanksgiving

Good post bro although I do not like greed in any form, although it can be a useful tool for progress! A true atheist is and intellectual. Someone that puts reason ahead of emotion. Emotion is largly a misleading aspect of humanity. While it can be a beautiful thing it is also very destructive. To become an athiest one must first possess knowledge. Through the acquisition of knowledge one can make a reasonable decision. This is what I always have challenged religious minded people to do with their own beleifs. If one makes the decision to beleive in something after examining all the facts that is respectable, but most people are subject to enviroment which dictates their beleifs, this to me is wrong.

You can literally look at a map and by pointing to geographical area one can very accurately predict what type of religion is practiced. In other words people choose their religion not from some higher intellectual pursuit but instead by being brought up in it. I have asked many people from all different religions the same questin. How do you know your religion is the correct one. Everyone always responds that the confirmation comes about through prayer. How does this confirm truth if everyone uses the same method and all are confirmation for the believer?

Greed; defined by who and based on what standard? Success is a degree of survival; greed is a term used by those who are jealous or envious of others who have more than they believe is necessary - yet those same people who accuse the "wealthy" of greed could be regarded as greedy by people who have less than they do. In other words, there is no such thing as greed. The term greed will tell you more about the person that uses the term than the person they are applying it to.

Atheism is a position a rational person maintains or returns to, because we are all born atheists. However most of us are brainwashed as children to believe in the supernatural and even though most of us develop our own beliefs as to the character of the supernatural; most never challenge the mere existence of the supernatural.

I do not think emotions are destructive; they offer guidance. They are potentially destructive only if acted upon without introspection.

[lxorl]

Re: Atheism and Thanksgiving

thanksgiving was created by the indians who had no belief in jesus and while they did believe in higher powers it wasnt your higher power..... does that mean they didnt really give thanks ?

if your thoughts on religion are close to the truth but not quite right on does god hold it against you? what if you are an outstanding person with no religious beliefs?

[mandarb11]

Re: Atheism and Thanksgiving

I think your confusion may possibly be coming from a flawed perception of a-theists and since I cannot speak for all atheists. I will tell you my beliefs. I do not think man is instinctual. I think man would best be defined as a rational animal; he survives via reason but reason is not instinctual, it of mans own volition. You have chosen to base your philosophy on mysticism by your own volition (influenced by your upbringing but you have chosen to continue it); I have chosen to submit to logic by my own volition.

I believe in psychological egoism; meaning everyone watches out for their own self interest. You love people because you believe they add happiness to your life. People pretend to be "selfless" because they believe it adds happiness to their life or that it will add happiness to their life or afterlife. Ethical egoism states everyone should act in their own best interest but since everyone already acts according to their own best interest; everyone should act in their own rational best interest. Meaning laying aside their mystical beliefs.

Emotions are a gauge of your beliefs about reality. That is why irrational people get more upset about things more rational people would think is trivial - apply this to the religious extremists and you can see for yourself. So emotions are a tool to gauge your accuracy of reality.

Like I stated earlier. Thanksgiving in its current state could not exist without many mens inventions, ideas and production. I am thankful for admittingly selfish men that through their desire for profit made my life easier in exchange.

Good post bro although I do not like greed in any form, although it can be a useful tool for progress! A true atheist is and intellectual. Someone that puts reason ahead of emotion. Emotion is largly a misleading aspect of humanity. While it can be a beautiful thing it is also very destructive. To become an athiest one must first possess knowledge. Through the acquisition of knowledge one can make a reasonable decision. This is what I always have challenged religious minded people to do with their own beleifs. If one makes the decision to beleive in something after examining all the facts that is respectable, but most people are subject to enviroment which dictates their beleifs, this to me is wrong.

You can literally look at a map and by pointing to geographical area one can very accurately predict what type of religion is practiced. In other words people choose their religion not from some higher intellectual pursuit but instead by being brought up in it. I have asked many people from all different religions the same questin. How do you know your religion is the correct one. Everyone always responds that the confirmation comes about through prayer. How does this confirm truth if everyone uses the same method and all are confirmation for the believer?

[Klash]

Re: Atheism and Thanksgiving

nope, I didnt get anything from those responses. My quandry is this:
To be thankful, you have to presuppose that the being you are thanking has performed the task out of love and self-lessness, not reflexive instinct. The atheists (the evolution-devotees, that is) would argue that from a purely biological/evolutionary standpoint, all actions are based on propagation of the species. Reproduction, marriage, raising of children...all done to simply further the species. These behaviors or instincts are interpreted as "love" by the weak-minded religious individuals, when in reality they are just that--instincts. True, we have "evolved" higher neurological processes, a prefrontal cortex that is capable of perceiving emotion-- but emotion, I would contest the evolutionist would argue, is beneficial to the species' survival. Thus our dominance over the world's other lower species. Therefore, the above mentioned "thankful" behaviors mentioned in mandbar and klash's responses are simply instinctual, evolved responses that any animal would carry out to ensure its species survival. Your mother and father have deemed you worthy of bestowing these behaviors upon you, they feel these evolutionarily positive emotions towards you--they see you as "good for the species". It is my hypothesis that to be thankful, truly thankful, you have to have received something from someone that was given out of love. Love is not instinctual--does your dog "love" you? No. Do mother animals "love" their offspring? No. Love comes from God. The scriptures say "God is Love".
Is anyone following me?

Just a thought I had Thanksgiving day. I didnt know if we had any atheists on the board here, but I knew we had some smart guys who liked to banter around a little.

I think your confusion may possibly be coming from a flawed perception of a-theists and since I cannot speak for all atheists. I will tell you my beliefs. I do not think man is instinctual. I think man would best be defined as a rational animal; he survives via reason but reason is not instinctual, it of mans own volition. You have chosen to base your philosophy on mysticism by your own volition (influenced by your upbringing but you have chosen to continue it); I have chosen to submit to logic by my own volition.

I believe in psychological egoism; meaning everyone watches out for their own self interest. You love people because you believe they add happiness to your life. People pretend to be "selfless" because they believe it adds happiness to their life or that it will add happiness to their life or afterlife. Ethical egoism states everyone should act in their own best interest but since everyone already acts according to their own best interest; everyone should act in their own rational best interest. Meaning laying aside their mystical beliefs.

Emotions are a gauge of your beliefs about reality. That is why irrational people get more upset about things more rational people would think is trivial - apply this to the religious extremists and you can see for yourself. So emotions are a tool to gauge your accuracy of reality.

Like I stated earlier. Thanksgiving in its current state could not exist without many mens inventions, ideas and production. I am thankful for admittingly selfish men that through their desire for profit made my life easier in exchange.

[mandarb11]

Re: Atheism and Thanksgiving

Thats cool bro I love discussing ideas, you are right in that many behaviours / feelings can be ascribed to evolutionary/biological ideas, but to me it does not make them any less valid. Being thankful is a expression that allows us to do things that may not be a logical course of action, ie. giving to charity, there is no benefit to you personally, but you do it in the hopes that you help someone that needs it. This is like being thankful you don't ned to have a particular focus for that expression in order to feel it. I understand where you are coming from, that one needs someone to be thankful for in order for that feeling to exist, but let me ask you this, if you never heard of a god and had some benefit bestowed on you you would still feel thankful, even if it is fate/luck that you ascribe the feeling towards.

In the old testament (the jewish bible) there was a prevalent theory in many of the writings known as the duteronomical theory of life, simply put that if good things happened to you then it was because you were living a good pious life, if bad things happened to you then you must have done something wrong. Well later in Jewish thinking people questioned this teaching as in the book of Job and ecclesiates where it said that good or bad life happens essentially. The point is one can be thankful to be alive no matter how we came into being, life itself is some thing to be thankful of. I am thankful for the sun for warming me and allowing all life on our planet to flourish, the sun itself is not a sentient entity and yet I am thankful for it/to it. Sorry i am trying to articulate the idea that one can be thankful for just about anything.

The act of being thankful is in itself a symbol of humility. This feeling itself is an idea just like justice or honor, it is an idea, it does not really exist, but it truth is evident nonetheless.

[PL456]

Re: Atheism and Thanksgiving

nope, I didnt get anything from those responses. My quandry is this:
To be thankful, you have to presuppose that the being you are thanking has performed the task out of love and self-lessness, not reflexive instinct. The atheists (the evolution-devotees, that is) would argue that from a purely biological/evolutionary standpoint, all actions are based on propagation of the species. Reproduction, marriage, raising of children...all done to simply further the species. These behaviors or instincts are interpreted as "love" by the weak-minded religious individuals, when in reality they are just that--instincts. True, we have "evolved" higher neurological processes, a prefrontal cortex that is capable of perceiving emotion-- but emotion, I would contest the evolutionist would argue, is beneficial to the species' survival. Thus our dominance over the world's other lower species. Therefore, the above mentioned "thankful" behaviors mentioned in mandbar and klash's responses are simply instinctual, evolved responses that any animal would carry out to ensure its species survival. Your mother and father have deemed you worthy of bestowing these behaviors upon you, they feel these evolutionarily positive emotions towards you--they see you as "good for the species". It is my hypothesis that to be thankful, truly thankful, you have to have received something from someone that was given out of love. Love is not instinctual--does your dog "love" you? No. Do mother animals "love" their offspring? No. Love comes from God. The scriptures say "God is Love".
Is anyone following me?

Just a thought I had Thanksgiving day. I didnt know if we had any atheists on the board here, but I knew we had some smart guys who liked to banter around a little.

[pigmeat]

Re: Atheism and Thanksgiving

No offense PL, I'm a firm believer in God, Christ and the Holy Spirit, but anyone can be thankful for the things they have experienced in life. Even a dog is thankful for a good owner. I can tell by the way my dog acts towards me after I take time to spend with her and when I don't. So, people don't have to believe to be thankful. Many people believe they are in complete control of what happens. Where as guys like you and I believe that we have free will to choose and we have free will to set goals and set out on a path, the difference is, we (you and I) know that even though we may set the path, God controls our footsteps.

good answer

[daved150]

Re: Atheism and Thanksgiving

Hmm interesting. well i don't think you need to believe in a higher power to be thankful for what you have in this life. one does not have to subscribe to any beleif system in order to partake in a day of appreciation. Although thanksgiving is largely a North American idea, and therefore Christian in nature, the idea of a day to celebrate life is open to all faiths, and athiests as well. It is easier to have something to thank, something specific, but to be thankful in itself is a sysmbol of humility and you do not need to beleive in a god to be humble! Athiests on the whole are humanists and are much more caring of their fellow human than most people that subscribe to religion. Humanists believe in the equality of all humans irregardless of race, creed or religion, this is not like religios people that say "beleive what I do or not only do I not value your life, you are going to be punished if you do not believe what I do."

Thanksgiving is like any holiday a day to be with family and to be thankful for all that you have in your life. It is a time away from the toil of everyday life that gives us all time to reflect on our lives, where is the necessity for a beleif in a god to do that?

fantastic responce!! i too believe in god, but i dont see why everyone cant be thankfull to someone for something...

[T-Man007]

Re: Atheism and Thanksgiving

No offense PL, I'm a firm believer in God, Christ and the Holy Spirit, but anyone can be thankful for the things they have experienced in life. Even a dog is thankful for a good owner. I can tell by the way my dog acts towards me after I take time to spend with her and when I don't. So, people don't have to believe to be thankful. Many people believe they are in complete control of what happens. Where as guys like you and I believe that we have free will to choose and we have free will to set goals and set out on a path, the difference is, we (you and I) know that even though we may set the path, God controls our footsteps.

[Klash]

Re: Atheism and Thanksgiving

Hmm interesting. well i don't think you need to believe in a higher power to be thankful for what you have in this life. one does not have to subscribe to any beleif system in order to partake in a day of appreciation. Although thanksgiving is largely a North American idea, and therefore Christian in nature, the idea of a day to celebrate life is open to all faiths, and athiests as well. It is easier to have something to thank, something specific, but to be thankful in itself is a sysmbol of humility and you do not need to beleive in a god to be humble! Athiests on the whole are humanists and are much more caring of their fellow human than most people that subscribe to religion. Humanists believe in the equality of all humans irregardless of race, creed or religion, this is not like religios people that say "beleive what I do or not only do I not value your life, you are going to be punished if you do not believe what I do."

Thanksgiving is like any holiday a day to be with family and to be thankful for all that you have in your life. It is a time away from the toil of everyday life that gives us all time to reflect on our lives, where is the necessity for a beleif in a god to do that?

Amen; I mean I agree!

As everything else, Thanksgiving has different meanings when viewed from a different perspective.

Thanksgiving came from the country that had the courage to implement "the great experiment" in freedom/capitalism. It could be seen as a holiday to celebrate freedom, productivity and reason. Everything involved with the day is a testament to man; not a god. We all sit down to an abundance of food manufactured and produced by men around the country and delivered for our consumption before it spoils. The people that sit across the table are there from across the country because of inventions that allow men to make hundreds and thousand mile trips within a few hours. Thanksgiving is being thankful that others were selfish enough to pursue profit by ideas, inventions and production.

[Stout1]

Re: Atheism and Thanksgiving

Just a thought of mine....

Who do atheists thank on thanksgiving? Im serious. Do you guys sit around and thank each other for things from the past and good things in your life? Thank mom for the love and care she gave yo as a tot? Thank dad for the work ethic have instilled in you as a lad? Thank you boss for the nice raise you got last year? Thank your fellow workers for being such swell guys? Do atheists thank each other and pat each other on the back?

I just cant imagine not having an Almighty Father to thank. A Heavenly Father to thank for giving you that great mom and dad who love you; giving you the knowledge and intelligence to study in school to get that great job, and the patience to deal with what are invariably often trying co-workers. Just seems to me am Almighty and caring God is responsible for all the good things in our lives, and we should thank Him as the source, not humans as the source of goodness in our lives. Just doesnt seem right to thank luck, or evolution, or our own determination. If that were the case, mom and dad were simply propogating the species, ensuring the little tots survival to promote their genetic influence in the world--not loving us. Seems just so sterile and uncaring..

So your saying God controls our lives and we're not responsible for our own actions and outcomes in life? It's all predetermined by God?

[mandarb11]

Re: Atheism and Thanksgiving

Hmm interesting. well i don't think you need to believe in a higher power to be thankful for what you have in this life. one does not have to subscribe to any beleif system in order to partake in a day of appreciation. Although thanksgiving is largely a North American idea, and therefore Christian in nature, the idea of a day to celebrate life is open to all faiths, and athiests as well. It is easier to have something to thank, something specific, but to be thankful in itself is a sysmbol of humility and you do not need to beleive in a god to be humble! Athiests on the whole are humanists and are much more caring of their fellow human than most people that subscribe to religion. Humanists believe in the equality of all humans irregardless of race, creed or religion, this is not like religios people that say "beleive what I do or not only do I not value your life, you are going to be punished if you do not believe what I do."

Thanksgiving is like any holiday a day to be with family and to be thankful for all that you have in your life. It is a time away from the toil of everyday life that gives us all time to reflect on our lives, where is the necessity for a beleif in a god to do that?

[PL456]

Just a thought of mine....

Who do atheists thank on thanksgiving? Im serious. Do you guys sit around and thank each other for things from the past and good things in your life? Thank mom for the love and care she gave yo as a tot? Thank dad for the work ethic have instilled in you as a lad? Thank you boss for the nice raise you got last year? Thank your fellow workers for being such swell guys? Do atheists thank each other and pat each other on the back?

I just cant imagine not having an Almighty Father to thank. A Heavenly Father to thank for giving you that great mom and dad who love you; giving you the knowledge and intelligence to study in school to get that great job, and the patience to deal with what are invariably often trying co-workers. Just seems to me am Almighty and caring God is responsible for all the good things in our lives, and we should thank Him as the source, not humans as the source of goodness in our lives. Just doesnt seem right to thank luck, or evolution, or our own determination. If that were the case, mom and dad were simply propogating the species, ensuring the little tots survival to promote their genetic influence in the world--not loving us. Seems just so sterile and uncaring..