Waterboarding - Torture?

[PL456]

Re: Waterboarding - Torture?

Yeah but these suspects don't have a right to face their accusers or the evidence against them. They are exactly that, suspects. Lets say someone steals your identity and starts doing a lot of treasonous activity that could be interpreted as terrorism; now your a suspect - that phucking sucks!

Klash,
A) They are NOT American citizens..they have no rights under our constitution, or under any constitution, they checked their rights at the door the minute we caught them on the battlefield or in a spider hole planning to blow up our brave soldiers.

B) I am an American citizen. I would have rights in our legal system. I would lawyer up, post bail and get it on in the court system. Last time I checked, there were no American citizens in our custody that have been under "enhanced interrogation"..I am quite sure CNN would have blasted that all over the place, had it had happened.

You are trying to treat these people as if the operation they are suspected of being involved in is some sort of criminal activity. This is not criminal behavior. We are on a war-time footing. The acts of 9/11, the USS Cole, and the Khobar towers and the like were acts of war, perpetrated by islamofascists determined to destory israel, the united states, and install sharia law in every area of the world they can.

[Klash]

Re: Waterboarding - Torture?

Klash,
A) They are NOT American citizens..they have no rights under our constitution, or under any constitution, they checked their rights at the door the minute we caught them on the battlefield or in a spider hole planning to blow up our brave soldiers.

B) I am an American citizen. I would have rights in our legal system. I would lawyer up, post bail and get it on in the court system. Last time I checked, there were no American citizens in our custody that have been under "enhanced interrogation"..I am quite sure CNN would have blasted that all over the place, had it had happened.

But one question. How do we know they are NOT American citizens? How do we know they ARE "terrorists"? They don't have any rights to defend themselves of any accusations. Once you were labeled a "terrorist", how would you prove you were an American citizen, so you could lawyer up, because you would never have the right to a trial to defend yourself.

Don't get me wrong here bro! I'm not a religious man, I find religion bothersome and I passionately despise people who kill, torture and terrorize in the name of their religion but I don't want innocent Americans to become victims of over zealous defense personnel. I would rather error on the side of caution and once someone is convicted; no restraint.

[horsepwr]

Re: Waterboarding - Torture?

It would be totally different for us, Americans. Look at John Walker Lindh(sp). He was nabbed right with a group of Taliban fighters...long beard, I wouldn't have been able to tell he was American. He spoke with a mid-east accent. Our guys picked him out quick and put him through the justice system. That proves PL's statement true right there. I mean, this guy was so dirty he looked dark, with turban, beard, accent, the works; on the field side by side with the Taliban. He's already serving his time. As long as your not holed up, hiding in a bunker with Taliban like Lindh, I'm sure it'd go even faster for ya in the hypothetical situation of stolen identity. Being American citizen, on U.S. soil...ya probably wouldn't even see the inside of a jail.

[PL456]

Re: Waterboarding - Torture?

Klash...do not fall into the lull of criminalizing this stuff. This is war. We are focused on islamic fascists. I think you may be drifting into the camp that believes a "military state" is coming whereby uncle sam could come snatch you up at night, trump up charges on you and start waterboarding you. Do not get distracted by this fantasy. This is America. We are the good guys (I think Ive said this before). We play by the rules and take care of our own. Man, there is so much political correctness and ACLU madness going on these days, you can't give someone a speeding ticket in this country without having them on video, a calibrated radar gun, a trained officer in using said radar gun, etc etc etc. much less snatch somebody up from the dinner table. Please, these fantasies of stormtroopers kicking down doors in Peoria are getting so tired. We are in a fight against people that want to kill us all--with nukes if they get them. Focus on the issue hear, do not be afraid.

[Klash]

Re: Waterboarding - Torture?

Klash...do not fall into the lull of criminalizing this stuff. This is war. We are focused on islamic fascists. I think you may be drifting into the camp that believes a "military state" is coming whereby uncle sam could come snatch you up at night, trump up charges on you and start waterboarding you. Do not get distracted by this fantasy. This is America. We are the good guys (I think Ive said this before). We play by the rules and take care of our own. Man, there is so much political correctness and ACLU madness going on these days, you can't give someone a speeding ticket in this country without having them on video, a calibrated radar gun, a trained officer in using said radar gun, etc etc etc. much less snatch somebody up from the dinner table. Please, these fantasies of stormtroopers kicking down doors in Peoria are getting so tired. We are in a fight against people that want to kill us all--with nukes if they get them. Focus on the issue hear, do not be afraid.

I understand your position but I believe you trust we are the "good guys" too much. Relative to the Muslim extremists, yeah, we're good people but we live in a society of automatons. Once our politicians pass legislation that infringes our individual freedoms - those freedoms will be infringed by people that believe they are good people.

For example I recently got caught speeding and law enforcement told me there was a warrant for my arrest. I insisted it was a mistake. He arrested me anyway and took me to jail. Where I also insisted it was a mistake. The guard asked me if I intended to bail and then put me in a cell. It took hours for them to process me and give me a call. I stated "they don't get in too big a hurry around here do they", where the guard promptly replied "I'd let you die in here, I don't care". I had the right to defend myself and eventually provided evidence that proved the warrant was not intended for me. This is a good example, I don't fear Uncle Sam snatching me from my bed; I fear Uncle Sam making a typo and then not having any recourse. But once our rights are suspended a deputy sheriff making a clerical error could drastically alter lives. You think there is a difference because someone is labeled a terrorist but like you said these guys don't wear uniforms. So the term terrorist could be a fairly loose term - yet carry very dire consequences.

The terrorist problem sould be dealt with by striking terrorist supporting states, not sacrificing any individual rights.

[PL456]

Re: Waterboarding - Torture?

The terrorist problem sould be dealt with by striking terrorist supporting states, not sacrificing any individual rights.[/QUOTE]


I thought we were striking terrorist states. Iraq, sanctioning Iran, supporting Israel against Hamas in Palestine. All these issues are staunchly opposed by the dems and liberals. Your ending comment about "not sacrificing" rings a little. In WW2 there were many sacrifices made on the homefront and abroad. While all war is bad, we didnt start this one, we have sacrificed many American lives--one life is too many; but in the full scope of wars we have been in, this war has been exceptionally carried out. In WW2 thousands of troops and civilians would die in a single day or single mission. If we need drones flying around to watch for terrorists, cameras on the street to more closely watch for terrorists, or other criminal behavior, or wiretaps, then I would be willing to sacrifice for that. I would not like it, as no one likes change, but I would do it. I guess we would respectfully have to agree to disagree.

[Klash]

Re: Waterboarding - Torture?

I thought we were striking terrorist states. Iraq, sanctioning Iran, supporting Israel against Hamas in Palestine. All these issues are staunchly opposed by the dems and liberals. Your ending comment about "not sacrificing" rings a little. In WW2 there were many sacrifices made on the homefront and abroad. While all war is bad, we didnt start this one, we have sacrificed many American lives--one life is too many; but in the full scope of wars we have been in, this war has been exceptionally carried out. In WW2 thousands of troops and civilians would die in a single day or single mission. If we need drones flying around to watch for terrorists, cameras on the street to more closely watch for terrorists, or other criminal behavior, or wiretaps, then I would be willing to sacrifice for that. I would not like it, as no one likes change, but I would do it. I guess we would respectfully have to agree to disagree.

I agree we did not start this war with Muslim extremists and, like you, I do not think we should go on defense but unlike you I do not think we should restrict individual freedom in a justification to give us a better position to fight them. If/when we have a enough evidence that shows a nation is supporting Muslim extremist groups, we strike them. We don't warn them, we don't go to the U.N. for resolutions or sanctions; we strike them so hard it is difficult for them to supply terror groups with arms, supplies and funds. It would not take long before former terror supporting countries would see a terror attack and their effort would be to distance themselves from it. There are tactics we could use that do not require restricting individual freedom.

[PL456]

Re: Waterboarding - Torture?

I agree with your statement about attacking pre-emptively. We have done that in Afghanistan and Iraq. We are also supporting the elected govt in Palestine (anti-hamas), as well as the Iran economic sanctions and the pressure we helped apply to North Korea. Not to mention our continued support to Israel.


Im interested, what tactices would you suggest we use to defend ourselves here, other than cams and wiretaps, that would not require restricting individual freedom???