"Outside" texts

[kite]

Re: "Outside" texts

Like a couple others here I was also raised RC, but have since rejected it because of the politics, beurocracy, etc..... I do however consider myself catholic as in it's true meaning, universal. I think that many have the right idea, but that none are "true". I say that mostly becuase we cannot know the mind of God, only what's been revealed and even that is up for interpretation. I do enjoy reading various texts as well as the Bible, but I pretty much take what priest and preachers say, filter it all out and take it for what it is, their interpretation albeit an educated one in many respects but still an opinion.

[Klash]

Re: "Outside" texts

you say they are christians but if they believe in reincarnation etc... then they are false christians meaning not really christians at all. You talk about beliefs and God like they conform to you when actually you must conform to Him. But if you are an atheist you can not understand or comprehend what I am talking about. I think you might be right in a way about the fear,death, ect. in that these things are probably reasons that someone initially seeks out God and his understanding. God and religion is something that will be argued about till the end of humanity that is something we can all agree on so for all you that dont believe or see yourself as god or whatever we can just agree to disagree and be friends.

I have read on many religions since I was a child and their is a commonality between them. The first step in accepting a belief on faith, is that you give another man authority over your beliefs because he has access to information (revelation), from god, that you do not have.

What would your belief system be today if no authority was ever given to Abraham, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, etc. Or if your parents (or guardian) protected you, from the belief that other men were spiritually superior to you and you never gave authority to these men, or any men like them. Would you believe in the Christian god? Of course not, Christianity, along with other religions, require indoctrination. You must be made aware of the criteria of being a Christian, or the criteria for going to heaven. We are only born with the ability to reason, which religious indoctrination is in conflict with.

The authority given to these men and men like them is the submission of logic, submission to another man and the foundation for ones irrational religious belief's.

Christians that believe in reincarnation simply give their authority to men that claim the Bible has been censored or misinterpreted. Their faith is no more incorrect than yours it just isn't represented by the majority but if majority determines truth - then Islam is the answer; yet they just give their authority to Mohammad.

oh and klash...i didnt forget our deal!! just were a "klash" hat!

I'll hold you to it!!

[Rolsroyce]

Re: "Outside" texts

I have read on many religions since I was a child and their is a commonality between them. The first step in accepting a belief on faith, is that you give another man authority over your beliefs because he has access to information (revelation), from god, that you do not have.

What would your belief system be today if no authority was ever given to Abraham, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, etc. Or if your parents (or guardian) protected you, from the belief that other men were spiritually superior to you and you never gave authority to these men, or any men like them. Would you believe in the Christian god? Of course not, Christianity, along with other religions, require indoctrination. You must be made aware of the criteria of being a Christian, or the criteria for going to heaven. We are only born with the ability to reason, which religious indoctrination is in conflict with.

The authority given to these men and men like them is the submission of logic, submission to another man and the foundation for ones irrational religious belief's.

Christians that believe in reincarnation simply give their authority to men that claim the Bible has been censored or misinterpreted. Their faith is no more incorrect than yours it just isn't represented by the majority but if majority determines truth - then Islam is the answer; yet they just give their authority to Mohammad.



I'll hold you to it!!

well you speak like all religions are correct and that is just not so. Just because you perceive something as truth doesnt mean it is. Even Christianity as is is taught isnt entirely correct but that is another story. But the Christian Bible is the true guide book, even though everything isnt translated correctly. It is a foundation. As I say, we will not all agree and thats fine. Its not my job to convince you of anything, for some living in ignorance is truly the best way because in the end you have that excuse that you never knew the truth and you will have the chance to know it then and choose.

[Klash]

Re: "Outside" texts

well you speak like all religions are correct and that is just not so. Just because you perceive something as truth doesnt mean it is. Even Christianity as is is taught isnt entirely correct but that is another story. But the Christian Bible is the true guide book, even though everything isnt translated correctly. It is a foundation. As I say, we will not all agree and thats fine. Its not my job to convince you of anything, for some living in ignorance is truly the best way because in the end you have that excuse that you never knew the truth and you will have the chance to know it then and choose.

I was intending to imply that all religions are false and that you must operate off of the premise that some men are spiritually superior to yourself to believe in them. I think it is unfortunate that we live in a time where the irrational individual can point to the rational and claim your logic is just as unsupported as my faith and not only escape ridicule but remain within the comforts of the majority.

You have issue with the translation of the Bible, which started as a skepticism in the credibility (or the agenda) of those who translated it. Why does that skepticism not continue to those who authored it. For most people, there seems to be an automatic pardon for outrageous claims as long as they were made over 1500 years ago. If anyone made the mystical claims of the Bible today, most would not give them second notice. Even if the numerous "eye witness'" corroborated each others stories of the son of god and miracles. Numerous eye witness' today would only confirm the delusions and/or deception of those numerous people.

I think everyone can recognize a rational argument when they see it, most faiths cover this base by implied coercion - associating "pure" logic with the deceptive tactics of the dark side, which is then associated with eternal damnation. Introspection can make you aware of how the coercive doctrines of the western religions have influenced your belief system. So even while reading a mystical text, if used properly can help lead you out of the confusion of religious doctrine.

Off to the babe collections

[kite]

Re: "Outside" texts

Although I'm not ready to become a Klashist, you do make some good points. Here's my take on the world's religions, I don't feel that any are absolutely true nor absolutely false. What I mean by that is that I believe God, the Arcitect if you will, has revealed himself to various people in various ways. To me a "false" religion is one that places it's "god" within the confines of our laws of physics. There are many out there whose "god" is limited and subject to our laws. This doesn't make any kind of sense to me because the creator cannot be subject to the creation. I don't believe that anyone has nailed it quite yet but I do believe in a Divine Creator. I've come to this belief not through coercion, but through research, soul searching and logic. Now for the most part I've narrowed it down to the "big 3", Judaism, Chrisitanity and Islam. Islam not so much simply because it seems to have simply taken the Jewish faith, early Christianity and some of the Eastern philosophies and put em in a blender.
My reasoning for this would take far too much space to type but a good place to start would be this link http://www.reasons.org/ , I got turned on to this through Dr. Hugh Ross, an astro physicist from Cal Tech.

[Rolsroyce]

Re: "Outside" texts

I was intending to imply that all religions are false and that you must operate off of the premise that some men are spiritually superior to yourself to believe in them. I think it is unfortunate that we live in a time where the irrational individual can point to the rational and claim your logic is just as unsupported as my faith and not only escape ridicule but remain within the comforts of the majority.

You have issue with the translation of the Bible, which started as a skepticism in the credibility (or the agenda) of those who translated it. Why does that skepticism not continue to those who authored it. For most people, there seems to be an automatic pardon for outrageous claims as long as they were made over 1500 years ago. If anyone made the mystical claims of the Bible today, most would not give them second notice. Even if the numerous "eye witness'" corroborated each others stories of the son of god and miracles. Numerous eye witness' today would only confirm the delusions and/or deception of those numerous people.

I think everyone can recognize a rational argument when they see it, most faiths cover this base by implied coercion - associating "pure" logic with the deceptive tactics of the dark side, which is then associated with eternal damnation. Introspection can make you aware of how the coercive doctrines of the western religions have influenced your belief system. So even while reading a mystical text, if used properly can help lead you out of the confusion of religious doctrine.

Off to the babe collections

well klash you make some good points and it is up to us all to find the way that is right for us. If it is the true way or not will be seen in the end. One thing I would say is for todays people to not put too much faith in churches and research for yourself rather than listen to other men.

[Klash]

Re: "Outside" texts

Although I'm not ready to become a Klashist, you do make some good points. Here's my take on the world's religions, I don't feel that any are absolutely true nor absolutely false. What I mean by that is that I believe God, the Arcitect if you will, has revealed himself to various people in various ways. To me a "false" religion is one that places it's "god" within the confines of our laws of physics. There are many out there whose "god" is limited and subject to our laws. This doesn't make any kind of sense to me because the creator cannot be subject to the creation. I don't believe that anyone has nailed it quite yet but I do believe in a Divine Creator. I've come to this belief not through coercion, but through research, soul searching and logic. Now for the most part I've narrowed it down to the "big 3", Judaism, Chrisitanity and Islam. Islam not so much simply because it seems to have simply taken the Jewish faith, early Christianity and some of the Eastern philosophies and put em in a blender.
My reasoning for this would take far too much space to type but a good place to start would be this link http://www.reasons.org/ , I got turned on to this through Dr. Hugh Ross, an astro physicist from Cal Tech.

If you are truly not influenced by the coercion of the western religions, not to mention the social implications of non-conformity, you would have to admit that a hypothetical entity powerful enough to create our reality, was also responsible for creating it in the manner it exists or the manner it is perceived to exist. For that hypothetical creator to create a rational animal (human), in which survival is dependent on it's skills of reasoning, and then create [irrational] criteria that was in direct opposition to that animal's mode of survival, to be able to enter a blissful eternity (heaven); he would be one extremely sadistic creator, if existed. I think, that not only are the followers of the Abrahamic religions being coerced with eternal punishment but with the negative connotation associated with disbelief. Can a believer ever really consider non-theism without the threat of being ostracized by family/friends. Would it cost a husband his family or a son his parents approval, even if it didn't, he would find more refuge by stating he had a belief in a god as opposed to stating he did not possess a belief in a god. So you have two coercive factors to look through, the doctrine's coercive tactics and societal acceptance.

If Islam is not as influential to you because it was heavily influenced by Jewish and Christian doctrine. Then why not emphasize on Zoroastrianism which heavily influenced Jewish and Christian doctrine. Christianity was the "New Age" for its day. Just as new age cults, of today, take societies new information and attempt to tie it into a nice pretty (but irrational) philosophy, so did Christianity back in the day. I think, religious beliefs evolve with the information that is available to the people of that time. IMO, that is why you have spiritual sects today tying in quarks and string theory as part of their premise for their religious doctrine, people are trying to have a more rational faith, until you come to pantheists - which are just atheists with a more acceptable label or are just atheists without integrity.

well klash you make some good points and it is up to us all to find the way that is right for us. If it is the true way or not will be seen in the end. One thing I would say is for todays people to not put too much faith in churches and research for yourself rather than listen to other men.

It is up to us that want the truth to find the path that coincides the most with reality and there is only one way to find it - logic. Faith will only lead us away from reality and the further we veer from reality, the more distasteful our consequences will be - we can see it in the headlines of our society today. The devastating news of the day is always rooted in a departure from logic. Terrorism, school shootings, perversion, pedophilia, etc. are all consequences of an irrational mind. Which ironically agitates those, who are inadvertently supporting the very thing causing it, the irrational, i.e. the faithful.