a REAL patriot soldier!

[Klash]

Re: a REAL patriot soldier!

See but it's those few key points that your mentioning to glorify the Iraq war which is what that soldier and people like myself disagree with whole heartedly!

Governments fly under false flags to make self inflicted wounds in order to get public approval of a war. Bush and Blair both said in a meeting that they were planning on having a plane made to look like a U.N. plane shot down in Iraq to make the invasion of Iraq acceptable. Bush was looking for any angle he could get to invade Iraq.

As for 9/11 that isn't a good reason to fight in Iraq or Afghanistan either. There is way to many flaws in there story and it's now been proven that it was also self inflicted with many different reasons why. So again that isn't a good example to glorify the war either.

He is refusing to fight because the reasons giving to fight were blatant lies to the american public to seduce them into the idea that if we don't the terrorists (or the boogeymen) might come get us. Fear mongoring is the best way for a government to control it's people.

I am not glorifying the war - I hate it just like everyone else. I'm simply stating it is rationally justified but because it is rational does not mean it is a glorified war.

I did not use 9/11 as a justification for the Iraq war - I used it more to provide context. I think it opened a lot of peoples eyes to the dangers of our enemies, especially when their snubbing their nose up at us for the past 12 years. I don't trust the people in the American government either but I have not seen any evidence that proves the American government was involved with 9/11. I have heard the claims of the building not falling straight down, tower number 7 falling and the hole in the pentagon isn't consistent with..., etc. This is all circumstantial evidence that is easily argued against and if it wasn't, hell, I'd gladly wear another notch of weird on my belt but I just don't see it.

[DJDIGGLER]

Re: a REAL patriot soldier!

I am not glorifying the war - I hate it just like everyone else. I'm simply stating it is rationally justified but because it is rational does not mean it is a glorified war.

I did not use 9/11 as a justification for the Iraq war - I used it more to provide context. I think it opened a lot of peoples eyes to the dangers of our enemies, especially when their snubbing their nose up at us for the past 12 years. I don't trust the people in the American government either but I have not seen any evidence that proves the American government was involved with 9/11. I have heard the claims of the building not falling straight down, tower number 7 falling and the hole in the pentagon isn't consistent with..., etc. This is all circumstantial evidence that is easily argued against and if it wasn't, hell, I'd gladly wear another notch of weird on my belt but I just don't see it.

I just sent you a PM for something that might clear things up for you.

[JsJs24]

Re: a REAL patriot soldier!

Right so because I never served that means I can't be a patriot or understand what patriotism means?

Let me ask you this pigmeat.......If a **** soldier saw wrong in what ****** was doing and refused to do what he was told, do you feel that soldier should be shot for treason? Or do you think he should be honored by the citizens he's trying to stand up and protect?

I'm curious to your answer on that one.

I hate to think you are comparing Goerge W to ******?? If an american soldier does not agree with why he or she is being sent into battle, oh well, tough! It is not up to the soldiers. We in the military do not have a vote to decide on going to War. The President makes that decision. If you ever joined the service and could reflect back to basic training when we learn the values and honor of serving our flag and our country, then, you might could understand. We signed and were sworn in to protect our country. Yes, sometimes that means being on the offensive, however it is still defending our freedoms. You don't want to wait until it is in our backyard and "defend" rather than be on the attack. I am so tired of left wing views these days. All of these actors and actrasses in Hollywood that think we give a damn what they believe. Not one single one of them probably has any ties to the military. Most of the veterans that I know cannot stand people that do not stand as one and defend our country's decision. I stated before that going into Iraq was not a choice I agreed with, however we are there now and cannot pull out without causing more damage than if we stay. We need to be on that soil over there for ONE major reason.....to strategically be in a position to fight Iran in the near future. We must defeat Iran and probably Syria one day. These countries dispise us and WILL indeed attack us with whatever they have (nukes eventually).

Perhaps it is best to sometimes believe that maybe, just maybe, the commanders of the military know more about this than we do. Do you have any idea how many different countries are in Iraq serving? I have been there and seen it. There are more than a dozen that I can think of off the top of my head. Don't you think that all of these countries thought this out too. We do not wish for terrorists to rule this Earth, and they are getting closer and closer to doing just that.

[whitetail]

Re: a REAL patriot soldier!

[QUOTE=JsJs24;773747]

Perhaps it is best to sometimes believe that maybe, just maybe, the commanders of the military know more about this than we do. QUOTE]

bingo

[DJDIGGLER]

Re: a REAL patriot soldier!

Spoken like true soldiers! Fall in line and do as your told! My point exactly.

It's pointless to try and debate with people that have been trained how to think. You yourself just said you do as your told, not as you think. So in all essence your saying you don't think, and you do as your trained. That is exactly how the ****'s worked. They did what they were told, not as they thought.

[Waterboy]

Re: a REAL patriot soldier!

Lets look at the definition of Patroit: One who loves, supports and defends one's country.

Definitionof Dissident: A person who actively opposes an established opinion, policy or structure.

So according to the definitions, this guy is a Dissident.

[solidground]

Re: a REAL patriot soldier!

why cant love for your country be shown by questioning your govt if you feel your govt is ruining your country..dissent against govt is way different then dissent against your country..
i for example defend my country and love my country by using my freedom of speech, and question and investigate my govt and the things that put our country in "danger".
A dissident is a patriot if they are fighting for the wellbeing of our country.."Support your country and its people, question your govt and the establishment" -me lol

[JsJs24]

Re: a REAL patriot soldier!

Spoken like true soldiers! Fall in line and do as your told! My point exactly.

It's pointless to try and debate with people that have been trained how to think. You yourself just said you do as your told, not as you think. So in all essence your saying you don't think, and you do as your trained. That is exactly how the ****'s worked. They did what they were told, not as they thought.

I am no longer in the military first off, and yes I can think on my own. I have a career in which I have to think on my own every day all day. Also, I went to college and completed a Bachelor Degree, so yes, I can learn and think on my own. You use some very strong words when comparing **** to me and/or the U.S. military. DON'T DO THAT! That is rediculous. It is sad to know there are marines and others out their dying for people like you to have your freedom to curse our troops and slander our president.

Read this and read it well....................I merely stated that when a man or woman signs up for any branch of the military, he or she understands clearly what it entails. Service members give up some of their freedoms so that others like yourself can have yours. Unfortunately, a lot of people do not give a **** about the military. Those people always seem to be the ones that have NEVER seen the middle-east nor have family that fight over there.

In my original reply to you I was implying that the young Lt is a jackass for thinking that he can turn down the same set of orders that over 200k others have received and carried out. Somehow you turned that into some **** bull**** and it angered me enough to further include myself in this worthless debate. I can't change your mind and you can't change mine. However, please refrain from EVER including **** and me or my fellow service members in the same thought.

jsjs24

[DJDIGGLER]

Re: a REAL patriot soldier!

I am no longer in the military first off, and yes I can think on my own. I have a career in which I have to think on my own every day all day. Also, I went to college and completed a Bachelor Degree, so yes, I can learn and think on my own. You use some very strong words when comparing **** to me and/or the U.S. military. DON'T DO THAT! That is rediculous. It is sad to know there are marines and others out their dying for people like you to have your freedom to curse our troops and slander our president.

Read this and read it well....................I merely stated that when a man or woman signs up for any branch of the military, he or she understands clearly what it entails. Service members give up some of their freedoms so that others like yourself can have yours. Unfortunately, a lot of people do not give a **** about the military. Those people always seem to be the ones that have NEVER seen the middle-east nor have family that fight over there.

In my original reply to you I was implying that the young Lt is a jackass for thinking that he can turn down the same set of orders that over 200k others have received and carried out. Somehow you turned that into some **** bull**** and it angered me enough to further include myself in this worthless debate. I can't change your mind and you can't change mine. However, please refrain from EVER including **** and me or my fellow service members in the same thought.

jsjs24

It's not my problem you can't see the correlation in what I was saying. You can take things any way you like, I'm not going to beat around bushes, and try to fluff things up to be politically correct.

I do have many friends that are over in Iraq including one of my best friends. He too agrees with the stuff I say, and he tells me that everything you see on TV is a lie. He tells me that it is all about oil, and he even told me in 2003 that in a few years we're going after Syria and Iran next. Kind of amusing that those exact words he spoke of, are now coming true almost 4 years later!

I do respect soldiers. I don't however respect soldiers that think that because they fight, they are owed something. Patriotism isn't fighting to expect a thank you. It's fighting to fight for your countries freedom. Freedom of speach is one of those things. If you can't respect freedom of speach, then don't fight for it!

As for the **** thing, again like everything else I say on this board when it comes to politics, you completely spun everything I said to play the victim card. I don't know what everyone's deal is lately about being so damn sensitive! The point I was trying to make was very simple....

****** ordered the ****'s to do things, they were brainwashed into believing it was right. They did as they were ordered. Even the few that weren't brainwashed still did as they were told so they wouldn't be persecuted by the millions that were seduced by ******s propoganda!

There is many similarities to that and the way our country is being run right this minute! How government is infringing on peoples rights, staged attacks to make war acceptable, people not thinking logically and following their government blindly without questioning it, people doing as their told without thinking about what they are doing. If you don't see the similarities in that, that's your issue not mine!

Again that doesn't mean I'm saying our soldiers are ****'s, I'm saying this country is being run by the same type of regime! So if you read into and interpreted my post correctly, you would have seen that I was simply pointing the finger at the government moreso than our troops. I was however stating that our troops are following that regime blindly without questioning what is truly going on. It's one thing if we were being attacked, it's totally different if we are the ones attacking! That is why that soldier gets my utmost respect!!

[DJDIGGLER]

Re: a REAL patriot soldier!

I am no longer in the military first off, and yes I can think on my own. I have a career in which I have to think on my own every day all day. Also, I went to college and completed a Bachelor Degree, so yes, I can learn and think on my own. You use some very strong words when comparing **** to me and/or the U.S. military. DON'T DO THAT! That is rediculous. It is sad to know there are marines and others out their dying for people like you to have your freedom to curse our troops and slander our president.

Oh and about your thinking comment.....Again you spun my comment to play the victim card. I was saying you were trained to think a certain way. So when people talk against the war or our current president your quick to defend it. Of course you think the military has the countries best interest in mind, and not the best interest of the wealthy that run this country.

I never said you as a person are not smart, or capable of thinking. I said that you do as your told, not as you think. Meaning that even if you did think something was wrong you would still do it anyway because that's what you were told. You yourself said that before. So then you get all offended that I said that! WTF? Your the one that admitted that, so that makes me the bad guy for elaborating on your own comment?

So when I said "In all essence you don't think, you do as your trained" that meant you don't follow your thoughts, you follow your training. FOLLOW ME NOW?!

Again people lately have been taking everything as personal shots, and being so damn overtly sensitive. If you get sensitive about debating, then don't debate!

[JsJs24]

Re: a REAL patriot soldier!

Oh and about your thinking comment.....Again you spun my comment to play the victim card. I was saying you were trained to think a certain way. So when people talk against the war or our current president your quick to defend it. Of course you think the military has the countries best interest in mind, and not the best interest of the wealthy that run this country.

I never said you as a person are not smart, or capable of thinking. I said that you do as your told, not as you think. Meaning that even if you did think something was wrong you would still do it anyway because that's what you were told. You yourself said that before. So then you get all offended that I said that! WTF? Your the one that admitted that, so that makes me the bad guy for elaborating on your own comment?

So when I said "In all essence you don't think, you do as your trained" that meant you don't follow your thoughts, you follow your training. FOLLOW ME NOW?!

Again people lately have been taking everything as personal shots, and being so damn overtly sensitive. If you get sensitive about debating, then don't debate!

Your opinion is your right and I do agree that you have that right to think and speak as you wish. Now let me clarify on what I argued in regard to your **** comparison. All militarys that I am aware of train pretty much how we do. Service members must be trained to follow orders or others will suffer. If this was a war that you did indeed support and there were soldiers that disagreed how would you feel if they all had the choice to drop their weapons and retreat? Let's assume that we were under attack and all of the left wing minded people thought we must take military action. How would it work out if a large portion of the milirtary said to hell with that, I don't want any part of it. It is just something to think about. You cannot afford to have soldiers whose minds are not 100% on the right track (or the track they are told is right). This country has one heck of a good track record for fighting and winning wars, I like to believe that we will get thru this one too, and perhaps it will be a success in the history books someday. However, my honest opinion is that you cannot defeat terror, much the same as you cannot win the war on drugs. I sometimes believe the worst is bound to happen...that is, a nuke on our soil. It is just a matter of time I feel that one of these terrorists will succeed a task of that sort. We are a hated country and there are a lot of nukes out there to be bought I imagine.

So basically, I am trying to understand your feelings on the war and recognize them. If you never mentioned anything about that LT then I would have probably stayed out of this debate. I simply can't stand it when people try to get out of a duty that they signed up for and especially an officer.........that is terrible!!!

[DJDIGGLER]

Re: a REAL patriot soldier!

Your opinion is your right and I do agree that you have that right to think and speak as you wish. Now let me clarify on what I argued in regard to your **** comparison. All militarys that I am aware of train pretty much how we do. Service members must be trained to follow orders or others will suffer. If this was a war that you did indeed support and there were soldiers that disagreed how would you feel if they all had the choice to drop their weapons and retreat? Let's assume that we were under attack and all of the left wing minded people thought we must take military action. How would it work out if a large portion of the milirtary said to hell with that, I don't want any part of it. It is just something to think about. You cannot afford to have soldiers whose minds are not 100% on the right track (or the track they are told is right). This country has one heck of a good track record for fighting and winning wars, I like to believe that we will get thru this one too, and perhaps it will be a success in the history books someday. However, my honest opinion is that you cannot defeat terror, much the same as you cannot win the war on drugs. I sometimes believe the worst is bound to happen...that is, a nuke on our soil. It is just a matter of time I feel that one of these terrorists will succeed a task of that sort. We are a hated country and there are a lot of nukes out there to be bought I imagine.

So basically, I am trying to understand your feelings on the war and recognize them. If you never mentioned anything about that LT then I would have probably stayed out of this debate. I simply can't stand it when people try to get out of a duty that they signed up for and especially an officer.........that is terrible!!!

Honestly I totally agree with what you said this time. But I'm saying when we're on the offense it's totally different. When you take the inconsistencies with 9/11 and figure that 9/11 is the reason we are at war, you then realize that this could be in fact a war that was started from lies that were told to the people.

We already know that we were misinformed and mislead to go into IRAQ. WMD's etc etc. So if they lied before, what's to say all the stuff that is coming to the surface about 9/11 now isn't true? And if it isn't true, then why are our men and women dying in Iraq for a war that shouldn't have been started in the first place? In my opinion if this war was for our freedom I would agree wholeheartedly with you.

but being that this war is about oil, and setting up a base in Iraq so the american government can get it's dirty little hands in everything, I totally agree with this guy. This isn't about our freedom or safety! It's about oil and power!

[JsJs24]

Re: a REAL patriot soldier!

Honestly I totally agree with what you said this time. But I'm saying when we're on the offense it's totally different. When you take the inconsistencies with 9/11 and figure that 9/11 is the reason we are at war, you then realize that this could be in fact a war that was started from lies that were told to the people.

We already know that we were misinformed and mislead to go into IRAQ. WMD's etc etc. So if they lied before, what's to say all the stuff that is coming to the surface about 9/11 now isn't true? And if it isn't true, then why are our men and women dying in Iraq for a war that shouldn't have been started in the first place? In my opinion if this war was for our freedom I would agree wholeheartedly with you.

but being that this war is about oil, and setting up a base in Iraq so the american government can get it's dirty little hands in everything, I totally agree with this guy. This isn't about our freedom or safety! It's about oil and power!

I agree with you as well. I was stationed in South Korea when I first heard that we were going to invade Iraq. Many of us were stunned. We thought, but what did Iraq do? What do they have to do with Bin Laden? It was and still is my opinion that oil was a major factor in the war. Perhaps it might be for our benefit as a country econmically but who knows. The only thing I know is that we took out Saddam, a dictator that was in need of being removed from power. But yes, you are correct, we were mislead imo too. We are not fighting in Somalia or N. Korea, most likely because there is no economic benefit to it. Sad but most certainly true. I guess to sum this up best, I believe that when people are in the military they need to follow orders. Once they get out, they can write a book about how much they disliked it or disagreed with the President and other commanders. Just do what you swore to do! That's all.

Good chat,

jsjs24

[oddball]

Re: a REAL patriot soldier!

he is a piece of **** and should be shot at the firing squad....all we need is a few more like him leading our troops, and mexico would beat us in a war

couldnt of said it better.either shoot or rot in prison 4-life