a REAL patriot soldier!

Re: a REAL patriot soldier!

I think I see what your saying. Your claiming he is a patriot of the traditional America. But one could argue America was making a mockery of the constitution just as much when the man joined the military as it is now and if that is his problem - he should have never joined.

Going to Iraq was defending ourselves.

Saddam was in a cease fire agreement with America in which he agreed to inspections to confirm he was disarming and he agreed not to fire upon America or allies, in which he failed on both terms, almost immediately.

Saddam displayed his character and lack of respect for sovereign nations, when he encouraged suicide bombers against Israel by offering financial incentives to the surviving family members.

Americans could have gave a $hit about Saddams non-compliance because Americans didn't see him as a threat, until we saw what a few persistent men and a couple Boeings could do. I think most people, post 9/11, decided we better start taking our enemies more seriously, thus the support for the strong threat given to Saddam to either comply or die (nice slogan, huh).

The incompetent intelligence about WMDs is really an insignificant issue when it comes to should we enforce our agreement with a tyrant who supports terrorism. It doesn't change anything - Saddam did not comply. So he didn't have any WMDs, it was his responsibility to confirm that and if he didn't it was our responsibility to confirm it by force. He made our choice for us.

Obviously, many Americans who supported the offensive on Iraq are now opposed to it because it is more difficult than they expected. That is one thing I admire about Bush - if it was right to go in its right when its gets hard.

See but it's those few key points that your mentioning to glorify the Iraq war which is what that soldier and people like myself disagree with whole heartedly!

Governments fly under false flags to make self inflicted wounds in order to get public approval of a war. Bush and Blair both said in a meeting that they were planning on having a plane made to look like a U.N. plane shot down in Iraq to make the invasion of Iraq acceptable. Bush was looking for any angle he could get to invade Iraq.

As for 9/11 that isn't a good reason to fight in Iraq or Afghanistan either. There is way to many flaws in there story and it's now been proven that it was also self inflicted with many different reasons why. So again that isn't a good example to glorify the war either.

He is refusing to fight because the reasons giving to fight were blatant lies to the american public to seduce them into the idea that if we don't the terrorists (or the boogeymen) might come get us. Fear mongoring is the best way for a government to control it's people.

[Klash]

Re: a REAL patriot soldier!

Someone that will fight to DEFEND yes DEFEND our country. Going into Iraq to get rid of a tyrant that didn't attack us, nor had weapons of mass destruction hardly is considered defending ourselves. As a matter of fact that would be offensive. So where do people get off saying it's defending our country?

Furthermore I also feel a patriot is someone whom is willing to stand up against the masses and popular belief to fight for the good of the country politically. To not allow those that make a mockery of our constitutional rights gain control of our country or people, and to enlighten as many people as possible from the rhetoric that is spit at them by our government.

I also feel a patriot is someone that won't fall in line or conform to all of the illegal violations of our constitutional rights. By accepting it for any reason including to make our country more "Secure" is criminal by the views of our ancestors.

Quite frankly as Patrick Henry once said......"Give me Liberty, or Give me death!"

I think people have forgotten what liberty means!

I think I see what your saying. Your claiming he is a patriot of the traditional America. But one could argue America was making a mockery of the constitution just as much when the man joined the military as it is now and if that is his problem - he should have never joined.

Going to Iraq was defending ourselves.

Saddam was in a cease fire agreement with America in which he agreed to inspections to confirm he was disarming and he agreed not to fire upon America or allies, in which he failed on both terms, almost immediately.

Saddam displayed his character and lack of respect for sovereign nations, when he encouraged suicide bombers against Israel by offering financial incentives to the surviving family members.

Americans could have gave a $hit about Saddams non-compliance because Americans didn't see him as a threat, until we saw what a few persistent men and a couple Boeings could do. I think most people, post 9/11, decided we better start taking our enemies more seriously, thus the support for the strong threat given to Saddam to either comply or die (nice slogan, huh).

The incompetent intelligence about WMDs is really an insignificant issue when it comes to should we enforce our agreement with a tyrant who supports terrorism. It doesn't change anything - Saddam did not comply. So he didn't have any WMDs, it was his responsibility to confirm that and if he didn't it was our responsibility to confirm it by force. He made our choice for us.

Obviously, many Americans who supported the offensive on Iraq are now opposed to it because it is more difficult than they expected. That is one thing I admire about Bush - if it was right to go in its right when its gets hard.

Re: a REAL patriot soldier!

I'm curious at what exactly you consider a patriot DJ? Please enlighten us.

Someone that will fight to DEFEND yes DEFEND our country. Going into Iraq to get rid of a tyrant that didn't attack us, nor had weapons of mass destruction hardly is considered defending ourselves. As a matter of fact that would be offensive. So where do people get off saying it's defending our country?

Furthermore I also feel a patriot is someone whom is willing to stand up against the masses and popular belief to fight for the good of the country politically. To not allow those that make a mockery of our constitutional rights gain control of our country or people, and to enlighten as many people as possible from the rhetoric that is spit at them by our government.

I also feel a patriot is someone that won't fall in line or conform to all of the illegal violations of our constitutional rights. By accepting it for any reason including to make our country more "Secure" is criminal by the views of our ancestors.

Quite frankly as Patrick Henry once said......"Give me Liberty, or Give me death!"

I think people have forgotten what liberty means!

Re: a REAL patriot soldier!

if i was a patriot of **** germany, i'd have to say shoot the fuk!
i really dont get what answer your looking for here dj. are we to assume that pigmeat would also be a ****? and, if so, he would be one that did not agree with ******'s ideals, so he would say honor him?? thats a confussing anology that has no answer.
if i was communist china patriot, i'd say run over the guy with the tank. if i was a iranian patriot, i'd scream to have a nuke!! but, we're not any of those things. we're americans. the story deals with a guy that turned on his fellow troops (imo)....try him for treason! he wasnt drafted. he wasnt forced to join. and he cant pick and choose our battles.
for the record, i want us out of iraq. i dont like throwing our money there. but, you must have rules and laws.

No no no no......Your reading way to much into it. I asked him the ****** analogy because it is very similar. I'm not saying pigmeat honors ****'s, in fact by answering that question it in no means makes him a ****.

I was making a point that people in Germany at that time would have thought that, that soldier should be shot for his so called "Treason" because the majority of the population was seduced by ******'s rhetoric. So the soldier would have been doing his duty by defending his country, and not fighting in a war that was destroying his country and it's reputation. Follow me now?

You guys always read into things I post like I'm attacking people or trying to incinuate things. You all need to stop being so damn sensitive!

[kite]

Re: a REAL patriot soldier!

I'm curious at what exactly you consider a patriot DJ? Please enlighten us.

[daved150]

Re: a REAL patriot soldier!

Right so because I never served that means I can't be a patriot or understand what patriotism means?

Let me ask you this pigmeat.......If a **** soldier saw wrong in what ****** was doing and refused to do what he was told, do you feel that soldier should be shot for treason? Or do you think he should be honored by the citizens he's trying to stand up and protect?

I'm curious to your answer on that one.

if i was a patriot of **** germany, i'd have to say shoot the fuk!
i really dont get what answer your looking for here dj. are we to assume that pigmeat would also be a ****? and, if so, he would be one that did not agree with ******'s ideals, so he would say honor him?? thats a confussing anology that has no answer.
if i was communist china patriot, i'd say run over the guy with the tank. if i was a iranian patriot, i'd scream to have a nuke!! but, we're not any of those things. we're americans. the story deals with a guy that turned on his fellow troops (imo)....try him for treason! he wasnt drafted. he wasnt forced to join. and he cant pick and choose our battles.
for the record, i want us out of iraq. i dont like throwing our money there. but, you must have rules and laws.

[kite]

Re: a REAL patriot soldier!

Right so because I never served that means I can't be a patriot or understand what patriotism means?

Let me ask you this pigmeat.......If a **** soldier saw wrong in what ****** was doing and refused to do what he was told, do you feel that soldier should be shot for treason? Or do you think he should be honored by the citizens he's trying to stand up and protect?

I'm curious to your answer on that one.

I was wondering when that analogy would come up.

Re: a REAL patriot soldier!

he swore to obey his officers and laws of the UCMJ and he did neither, so he should be shot for treason..like you said dj, you never served, so YOU wouldnt understand.....

Right so because I never served that means I can't be a patriot or understand what patriotism means?

Let me ask you this pigmeat.......If a **** soldier saw wrong in what ****** was doing and refused to do what he was told, do you feel that soldier should be shot for treason? Or do you think he should be honored by the citizens he's trying to stand up and protect?

I'm curious to your answer on that one.

Re: a REAL patriot soldier!

Wow I understand ur point but i can believe what you are insinuating.
You need to remember that The president is commander in chief of the military. To disobey him is treason.

Our country is still a few yrs off from being so screwed up that the people stand up and do something about the consatn loss of our liberties but its coming.

Good point. But when the commander in chief himself is commiting criminal acts against the people that soldier was sworn to protect, that would no longer be considered treason, and in all actuality, would then be considered patriotism. Taking the brave step of refusing to fight in a war the commander in chief planned all along to set this country up for the 3 points I mentioned in my previous post.

Sure that soldier can't do much as he really doesn't have any connections. But he can stand up and make a point to bring public eye to the real problem.......The war in Iraq and the many lies and deceptions that got us there.

It's easy for the public to jump on the bandwagon and point the finger, but society follows patterns and if enough people point out what is really going on, people will stray from that bandwagon and see the truth that they overlooked.

[pigmeat]

Re: a REAL patriot soldier!

he swore to obey his officers and laws of the UCMJ and he did neither, so he should be shot for treason..like you said dj, you never served, so YOU wouldnt understand.....

Re: a REAL patriot soldier!

As for knowing what a true patriot is, it's going against popular belief to stand up for your country. It's trying to protect your country against any harm both internationally AND domestic. Again I repeat AND domestic.

So in all essence he is being a patriot by trying to protect his country from the cancer cells that are running and ruining it currently!

Wow I understand ur point but i can believe what you are insinuating.
You need to remember that The president is commander in chief of the military. To disobey him is treason.

Our country is still a few yrs off from being so screwed up that the people stand up and do something about the consatn loss of our liberties but its coming.

Re: a REAL patriot soldier!

A patriot is one who loves and defends their country. What does it mean to love your country? Does it mean that if you don't agree with a particular political move you should abandon your oath? IMO, to "love" your country means supporting it's ideals, deffending it and taking an active role in it. This man took an oath. Although I don't disagree that the Iraq move was at least in part money/power motivated, it was also and attempt to free the people and spread our ideology of freedom and democracy. This man has placed his personal political views and placed them above these peoples right to the same freedom that allows him to espouse his distaste for the current administration. As you said this is merely my opinion, but his actions in no way support being a "patriot".

You really think we're there to free people? It's about three things....

1. Oil - Plain and simple!

2. Set up bases in the Middle east to make it easier to get anywhere in the world faster!

3. Set them up with a so called democracy, while we keep them in our pockets as we try to set up our one world government. The UK is our main ally in setting this up!

As for your patriot comment the most important thing you said is it is your opinion. Now go back and do some research of the revolutionary war and find out what it really means to be a patriot, not what people were told to think being a patriot means!

[daved150]

Re: a REAL patriot soldier!

The guy may be principled but you don't join the military and then decide what military conflicts your going to participate in. If joining the military only meant you were open to negotiating about going to war our military would be impotent. Your at the disposal of the president, if you don't like that - you shouldn't join.

i agree...he's pretty far from a pariot in my opinion...

[Klash]

Re: a REAL patriot soldier!

He is true to his word if he's trying to stand up and say that going to Iraq is not defending our country because it's nothing to do with our national security.

You saying he isn't being patriotic is merely your opinion. The fact of the matter is we all know Iraq was no threat, and he signed up to defend this country from any threat domestic or international. Going to give his life for oil so our government can still allow us to be charged record gas prices while they collect higher taxes from those higher gas prices is ridiculous! I'm surprised more haven't stood up.

Again like I've said before I think many people have forgotten what it truly means to be a patriot. Seriously a few of you need to do some research about what patriotism stands for and you will be surprised!

The guy may be principled but you don't join the military and then decide what military conflicts your going to participate in. If joining the military only meant you were open to negotiating about going to war our military would be impotent. Your at the disposal of the president, if you don't like that - you shouldn't join.

[T-Man007]

Re: a REAL patriot soldier!

Perhaps you never served in the military??? He will be tried in a "military" court, not a civilian one. He does not have the same rights that civilians do.

Yep, it doesn't matter whohis lawyer is, he has to choose a military attorney, so he's phuked. Whether he thinks he was right or not is irrelavant, he broke the code.

True Patirotism of a soldier is honoring the code, period.