RevTodd..... A question sir

[mick-G]

Re: RevTodd..... A question sir

As for the last question, yes, I do believe there are people left out. As a matter of fact, no man is born into the book of life. All are born sinnful and we must be called by God. So yes, I believe 100% that people are left out. As a matter of fact, ALL people would be left out of the book of life if they did not choose to believe. So, we agree on that. LOL

No i don't think you are understanding what iam saying. I have read that there are ppl predisposed to not be in the Book of Life. Meaning the moment they are born it doesn't matter what they do, they are already cast out and will not be will God. Of course i would imagine these ppl can not be saved. Iam also not reffering to Vatican 2 law, am reffering to alot of the scripture in the Bible and what in it relates to Catholic belief. Of course if you choose not to believe it is said you will be in eternal damnation.

[T-Man007]

Re: RevTodd..... A question sir

No i don't think you are understanding what iam saying. I have read that there are ppl predisposed to not be in the Book of Life. Meaning the moment they are born it doesn't matter what they do, they are already cast out and will not be will God. Of course i would imagine these ppl can not be saved. Iam also not reffering to Vatican 2 law, am reffering to alot of the scripture in the Bible and what in it relates to Catholic belief. Of course if you choose not to believe it is said you will be in eternal damnation.

I still don't think I understand what you are saying. I don't have to read that people are predisposed to not be in the book because it just makes since to me that it would be that way. Here's why: the Bible clearly states that no man will seek God on his own. Thus, God MUST call that person to him before he can even be saved. Thus, if God does not call that person to him, then of course, no matter what they do, they won't be in the book of life. To me, based on what the Bible says, that's just common sense. If God doesn't call you, you don't get in. Period. And that is exactly what you are saying, some people are predestined to go to hell. It sounds rough but in all honesty, none of us are worthy to stand by God, none of us. However, those of us blessed enough to be called to God and smart enough to answer that call and live a life of belief, get to be called righteous. I know it sounds bad but I don't look at it like 'oh poor them', I look at it like 'wow, how blessed am I that I was called by God, because I certainly don't deserve it.'

As far as some doctrine stating that, I don't need that. I can read it right out of the Bible and get it. Like I said, if it's in the Bible, I believe it, if it's not, I don't. I also never take any one mans interpretation of scripture as truth. I read it for myself and I have a program on my lap top with 15 different commentaries and I will reference most of them when trying to determine what a particular verse or chapter is actually saying. I also have a mentor who can read, write and speek greek, latin and hebrew. So, if I'm really stumpted I go to him and he will explain it to me based on the original writings, for the most part. There are many parts of the Bible that were written in Aramaic (sp) and he does notknow that language but he does rely upon the early translations into laguages he does know. All and all, I believe it's man responsibility to learn the Bible himself, so that's what I try my best to do. However, when it takes over a year just to go through Romans with your mentor, it takes a long long time to get through the entire book. But, when we study the Bible, my mentor has be do sentence diagraming on every single verse and then I have to explain to him the breakdown of each verse, who it's about and what it's saying. Anyways, I know that last part is off topic, I just wanted to paint a clear picture of how I personally learn scripture.

[mick-G]

Re: RevTodd..... A question sir

Ok...i get your point 007, lol!

[angryoldman]

Re: RevTodd..... A question sir

What do you have against my answer? It's straight from Genisis, thus, answering your question that the Bible clearly states that if a man kills another, he will be killed by man.

Nothing T-Man. I have nothing against your answer at all. Thanks.
But here's the way I look at it:
I am not going to ask my podiatrist why I have an irregular heart beat. Even though both are Doctors, I still tend to trust the Cardiologist answer a little more, since that's his specialized field. Just like RevTodd's specialized field is the Bible. If I have a question about living area square footage and price per sq ft or LTV, trust me, you're the first guy I'm coming to.
Also I'm a Catholic. We believe New Testament overrules the Old Testament.

[T-Man007]

Re: RevTodd..... A question sir

Nothing T-Man. I have nothing against your answer at all. Thanks.
But here's the way I look at it:
I am not going to ask my podiatrist why I have an irregular heart beat. Even though both are Doctors, I still tend to trust the Cardiologist answer a little more, since that's his specialized field. Just like RevTodd's specialized field is the Bible. If I have a question about living area square footage and price per sq ft or LTV, trust me, you're the first guy I'm coming to.
Also I'm a Catholic. We believe New Testament overrules the Old Testament.

LOL. I'm with you now bro! I can respect that. Maybe one day I will be good enough to answer a Bible question for you, but don't worry, my feelings aren't hurt to bad, well a little, but I'm a big boy so I will just go eat a gallon of ice cream and wallow in my self pity and eventually get over it. LOL

[Waterboy]

Re: RevTodd..... A question sir

T-Man,
You stated the the only sin that can not be forgiven is blasphemy.
I thought the only sin the was unforgivable was suicide.
Then again, I may be wrong. Please elaborate on this. Thanks

[mick-G]

Re: RevTodd..... A question sir

^Thats what us raised Catholics believe. If you commit suicide knowingly, you will not go to heaven reguardless how good of a person you were in life. I mentioned that earlier. Also, in todays world i don't think you can take litteraly that if you commit murder then you are to be killed as well. This also puts light on purgatory. A person with sin is supposed to go there before judgement. They must be absolved of their sins before they can enter the kingdom of God. Killing in a war situation is dependant on what causes you are fighting for and if you have to kill in self defence, there is a dif there. I don't think the "Turn the other cheek" was meant pretaining to killing another person. It is more of a trying to avoid conflict and resolving issues instead of eye for an eye. You can talk to many "Ministers" Priests, or laymen and you will find one's have differing of opinions on these issues.

[T-Man007]

Re: RevTodd..... A question sir

T-Man,
You stated the the only sin that can not be forgiven is blasphemy.
I thought the only sin the was unforgivable was suicide.
Then again, I may be wrong. Please elaborate on this. Thanks

Mark 3:28-29 (NIV)

"I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemies against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin"

Mark 3:28-29NKJ

"Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation"

Matthew 12:31
And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

Matthew 12:32

Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Luke 12:10

And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.


As you can see, the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. See, Catholics teach that sin must be confessed to a priest. However, the truth is Jesus died for all of my sins before I was even born. Thus, as a believer, every sin I commit is forgiven before I even commit it. If we truely had to confess our sins to a man to be forgiven and we died in a car accident on the way to the priest we would go to hell. It doesn't work that way. Not according to the Bible. Do a search on it like I did. There is not one verse in the Bible that suggest suicide is an unforgiven sin. The Bible however is very clear that if you believe in Christ, that's it, then you will have eternal life. It doesn't say anything about any sin being worse or better or anything other than blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Which is common sense if you think about it. When you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, the Holy Spirit enters your body. This is throughout the New Testament. However, if you blasphemy the Holy Spirit then you obviously don't truely believe which goes back to the first point, all you have to do is believe.

[T-Man007]

Re: RevTodd..... A question sir

PS - as you can see, written by three of the gospels, every single one of them state the fact that ALL sin will beforgiven other than blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. That doesn't mean ALL but suicide, it means ALL! That's why they all used the word "all" because they meant "all". To say that any other sin other than blaphemy of the Holy Spirit is unforgiven, is changing the the Bible. Like I said, if it's in the Bible I believe it, if not, then I don't. No where in the word of God does it state suicide is the only unforgiven sin, thus, it's not true. However, several times it is stated that the only unforgiven sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, thus, it IS true. We aren't talking about once, twice or even three times but four times. Four different times this is stated. This is obviously the point God is trying to make. Otherwise, it wouldn't be in there so many times. And again I point out, not once does the Bible state that suicide is the only unforgiven sin. So, you see why I refuse to believe that.

[kite]

Re: RevTodd..... A question sir

T-Man,
You stated the the only sin that can not be forgiven is blasphemy.
I thought the only sin the was unforgivable was suicide.
Then again, I may be wrong. Please elaborate on this. Thanks

Well with suicide, as well as other sins, your forgiveness level for lack of a better term is based on knowledge and consent of the will. I don't think that those deeply disturbed due to mental illness, severe depression, etc... will be automatically condemned to hell for suicide.

[RevTodd]

Re: RevTodd..... A question sir

Sorry this took so long, guys... I had some thing going on over Christmas and was spending time with family out of town for a while.

On another forum I was asked a similar question about the OT concept of retribution. Maybe my answer there will shed some light on the subject? Hope this helps...

----

Just for the record, the retributive principle (lex talionis) is alive and well in the NT... To avoid confusion, what one must keep in mind is there are at least 3 forms of retribution delineated in the Bible.

1) Personal retribution
2) Civil/Legal/National retribution
3) Divine Retribution

[Actually 2 and 3 are intimately related]

The lex talionis is described in such NT passages as...

"But Jesus said to him, 'Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.'" Matt 26:52

"For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil." Romans 13:3-4

"Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme, or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good." 1 Pet 2:13-14

This principle remains in the adminstration of CIVIL LAW AND NATIONAL SELF-PRESERVATION, as it always was. What Jesus elucidated in the NT for believers was a principle of refraining from exacting PERSONAL vengeance.

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also." Matt 5:38-39

Jesus here was not saying that the OT was wrong, but that one should not take this principle of the civil/national law and apply it in a personal circumstance outside the purview of the duly constituted authorities (read, vigilante justice). This is why it is vital to recognize the distinct kinds of retribution. He was commanding them to not co-opt the legal principle via misinterpretation and misapplication for their own ends. Then he describes what should be the heart attitude of a believer toward personal affronts. I must admit that I personally struggle with this principle in practice, lol.

Another reference (if you'll forgive me) might help further clarify...

"If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. Beloved, do not avenge yourself, but give place to [God's] wrath; for it is written, 'Vengeance is mine, I will repay,' says the Lord." Therefore, if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him drink; For in so doing, you will heap coals of fire on his head.' Do no over come evil by evil, but overcome evil with good." Romans 12:18-21

The Apostle Paul here is basically saying the same thing regarding personal vengeance, and references the fact that Divine retribution will always be the equalizer in the end. Then, in the very next chapter (Romans 13, previously quoted) he describes how the civil officials (whose authority, whether they recognize it or not, comes from God) DO bear the sword and ARE CHARGED with meeting out just retribution to evil doers.

[angryoldman]

Re: RevTodd..... A question sir

Thanks revTodd. Much appreciated on that(as usual).
OK. I am going to put you on the spot here. Not because I want to, but because I feel I must ask.
You enlist in the military. You are sent overseas to war. You kill during war. Is this wrong according to the Lord? There is a fine line I believe, because you are fighting to protect yourself. If they're shooting at you, you're damn well right I'm shooting back. But is the fine line the fact that they are killing in a war that they enlisted in? Do you know what I mean RevTodd? Hopefully I'm making myself clear enough.

[mick-G]

Re: RevTodd..... A question sir

007, confessing sin to a Priest in the Catholic religion is only a ritual that they do to repent to God thru a layman. The Priest is just merely a surrogate. This does not mean Catholic's believe you will not be forgiven otherwise, lol! Catholics do pray and repent to God directly as well.

I. Suicide is murder (self-murder). As such, it is forbidden by God, and directly against the 6th Commandment.
Exodus 20:13
Deuteronomy 5:17
A. God is the Author of life.
Genesis 2:7
Deuteronomy 30:20
Job 12:10
Psalms 66:9
Isaiah 42:5
Ezekiel 37:10
Daniel 5:23
Zechariah 12:1
Acts 17:25, 28
Hebrews 12:9

Revelation 21: 1-8
"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, " Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. HE will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said," Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
He said to me: " It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magical arts, the idolaters and all liars- their place will be in the in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” I think perhaps in all honesty, in the end it will be a matter of faith and belief in God.

[Testify]

Re: RevTodd..... A question sir

Forgive me for not reading all of the above posts, but I think (correct me if I am wrong RT) that I can answer a couple of the debates - or at least give my interpretation.

As for the commandment about killing . . . I believe that the commandment actually read "Thou shalt not commit murder." Of course, murder and killing are two slightly different things. Over the years I beleive the wording and meaning has become blurred.

About sins . . . I do believe that some sins are worse than others, for example lying is not as bad as murder. And I believe God considers this upon our judgement. However, God abhors ALL sin equally, and this is why a "good" person who has no faith and has not been forgiven cannot spent eternity in his presence (Heaven). God cannot abide sin, plain and simple. But he gave us his son Jesus, so that through faith and repentance we can have our sins forgiven and be found blameless - this is the bridge to eternal life in Heaven.