With all of the religions out there

[T-Man007]

Re: With all of the religions out there

Freethinking, in this case, refers to being unrestrained by superstition, myth and dogma. I know my kids will be exposed to christianity, heavily and I am not going to underestimate the power of social pressure but I do have reason on my side and remember we are all born atheists - to become religious, you must be indoctrinated. From an atheist perspective, your friend is not forcing his kids to believe in atheism, he is protecting them from indoctrination - thus maintaining their natural position of atheism(a lack of indoctrination). I think it will be extremely difficult for christians to indoctrinate a kid who comes back to very rational, loving, moral and consistent parents every night. But if one of my kids felt compelled to follow the christian doctrine, I would conclude that I failed at teaching my kids how to reason and I would have a "come to reason" session.

Ok, then why is it called 'freethinking'? My personal opinon would be that it means freedom to think whatever you want, but in actuallity it's not. It seems that it has limitations on what you can think. I respect your views and respect your point but I see the difference now. You belief is that religion, myth and such is a restraint on a person, where as I do not. I like these debates, it helps me to understand other people better.

I personally don't find religion a restraint though, I know from personal expereince there were times I would not have survived without God. I don't believe in luck or chance, but that's me. If it were up to luck or chance, my life would have already been over. Anyways, that's my thoughts...but you already knew that. LOL

[DJDIGGLER]

Re: With all of the religions out there

I believe in god, I pray sometimes, and in the words of George Carlin I follow the 10 commandments because they are good ways to live your life.

I feel that the christian religon in and of itself is not 100% accurate. I find it amusing that many people can't logically understand that being that the book is thousands of years old it's very possible things have become misinterpreted over the years, and drawn way out of context! I think I lean towards being a christian the most because it's a good way to live, not because I believe the stories as text!

[Klash]

Re: With all of the religions out there

Ok, then why is it called 'freethinking'? My personal opinon would be that it means freedom to think whatever you want, but in actuallity it's not. It seems that it has limitations on what you can think. I respect your views and respect your point but I see the difference now. You belief is that religion, myth and such is a restraint on a person, where as I do not. I like these debates, it helps me to understand other people better.

I personally don't find religion a restraint though, I know from personal expereince there were times I would not have survived without God. I don't believe in luck or chance, but that's me. If it were up to luck or chance, my life would have already been over. Anyways, that's my thoughts...but you already knew that. LOL

You know, I typically tend to avoid using the term 'freethinker' when talking to theist's, just because it's not the most objective term when dealing with an opposing perspective but I've been in alot of debates with atheist's lately and it just snuck out.

[SpyWizard]

Re: With all of the religions out there

Atheist??? Never met one, a true atheist does not believe in anything, and agnostic believes in something bigger, they just dont' know what it is..

Even scientist that put creationism to the test cannot disprove it.. but put to the test to prove evolution they cannot.

It is far more of a "Reach of Faith" to believe the assumptions that are made in regards to evolution (theory = Something taken to be true without proof

So to be a "Christian" a follower of Christ the Messiah is based on reasoning, and yes, faith and hope..

[Klash]

Re: With all of the religions out there

Atheist??? Never met one, a true atheist does not believe in anything, and agnostic believes in something bigger, they just dont' know what it is..

Even scientist that put creationism to the test cannot disprove it.. but put to the test to prove evolution they cannot.

It is far more of a "Reach of Faith" to believe the assumptions that are made in regards to evolution (theory = Something taken to be true without proof

So to be a "Christian" a follower of Christ the Messiah is based on reasoning, and yes, faith and hope..

A "true" atheist is a non-theist. Theist's belive in a god or gods - someone who does not, is an atheist. Atheist are very common in children under the age of three, if you know a three year old - you know an atheist. Agnostics are technically atheists, they do not accept the existence of god as a fact, therefore they are a non-theist or an atheist but I can understand why they would not want the label.

You are right, evolution is a theory, just like the "theory of gravity" and "nuclear theory". Theories in science are based on fact. It is a collection of facts, pertaining to a specific phenomena in reality. Theories are open ended so it can be added to as humans increase their study/knowledge.

Being a follower of "Christ the messiah" is not based on reasoning. Faith and hope, sure but not reason. If any "nonfiction" book was written today with claims and journalistic standards equal to that of the Bible the authors would be considered irrational, at the very least. Yet, add 2000 years and its a revelation from god. There is nothing logical about that.

[SpyWizard]

Re: With all of the religions out there

Actually if you'd like to debate the historical accuracy of the bible compared to all other documents, that's fine, given that i believe the accuracy of that writing, due to lack of errors over time that's ok too.

Reasoning, belief that something is true based on experience, and scientific evidence.

Ever hear of the Theory of Chaos??? that's where from order comes Chaos, not the other way around..

[Klash]

Re: With all of the religions out there

Actually if you'd like to debate the historical accuracy of the bible compared to all other documents, that's fine, given that i believe the accuracy of that writing, due to lack of errors over time that's ok too.

Reasoning, belief that something is true based on experience, and scientific evidence.

Ever hear of the Theory of Chaos??? that's where from order comes Chaos, not the other way around..

Historical accuracy as according to settings, technology, nationalities, government, and execution styles. Okay, its historical accuracy in a vague and general way are correct but so is Stephen King's writings but that doesn't support the accounts of the supernatural, in the same writings.

So chaos theory supports your belief in christianity?

[SpyWizard]

Re: With all of the religions out there

no, it supports the fact that from order comes chaos...

example... if you take a box and fill it with bits and pieces of metal glass, and what not.. close it, shake it for 1,000,000 or 10,000,000 you would not expect to open it and find a swiss watch.. how can anyone believe in evolution??

[youngN]

Re: With all of the religions out there

You're gonna have to have faith In God first off, then Id say read the Bible for yourself and start checking out churches. The more you read the book you start to realize what God wants. Now there are plenty of differnet churches to choose from, which is the most accurate I dont know, in all honesty every church will have its flaw and none of them are gonna be like the New Testament churches. The most 2 common reasons for divisions in church is instruments in worship (which I find to be irrelavent) and Baptism (in my studies I believe its essential). Ur gonna have to study for urself to know what is right, and if ur going somewhere and u dont think there doing something right ask someone about it and ask why there doing this certain thing and if u think its far off from what God wants then id say thats not a good church for you. From what I believe and how the bible reads to me I think you gotta beleive, obey what God says, confess ur sins to God, strive to be blameless (althought well come up short) and be baptized...In short Imitate Jesus, if through ur studies and thruough ur life U dont think Jesus did it or would do it in this day in age then dont do it. Id honestly say though look for a church whos Focus is put on bringing people closer to God and get away from the churches who try to condemn everyone else to hell. The more you study the more u realize no church is perfect but pray that God speaks to u thru ur own studies so you can determine with Gods help what is right.

[Klash]

Re: With all of the religions out there

no, it supports the fact that from order comes chaos...

example... if you take a box and fill it with bits and pieces of metal glass, and what not.. close it, shake it for 1,000,000 or 10,000,000 you would not expect to open it and find a swiss watch.. how can anyone believe in evolution??

Lets say your observation, that evolution conflicts with thermodynamics is correct - hypothetically.
You are reasoning that contradictions cannot exist in reality and concluding that the observed contradiction is with an error in human reasoning. Yet, the alternative you offer in place of observing this error in human reasoning is total abandonment of reason - a contradiction in itself - your reasoning to abandon reason.

The problem with your analogy is metal, glass and watch "what nots" do not compare with molecules that attract, repel and bond with each other. The theory of evolution is based on an open system, not closed.

[kite]

Re: With all of the religions out there

I think that what seperates theists from non theists is interpretation of experience. The philosophical community as well as the scientific community is, for the most part, split. They debate the issues all over the place and I highly doubt that anyone's mind is changed in the process. For those that believe, there is blinding evidence to support their beliefs and they cannot comprehend how anyone could be a non-theist. The same holds true for most if not all agnostics and atheists. While the debates are interesting and informative on both sides, it comes down to faith. I don't get how anyone could deny that, at the very least, there is intelligent design and thus a Creator, but there are many who just don't get how I can believe that there is a Creator who not only designed everything but is active in our lives and shows infinite mercy and love for His creation.

[lxorl]

Re: With all of the religions out there

God or No God, i think organized religion is a joke... and i think god would laugh and cry at all the idiots carrying out atrocities in the name of religion..

you know the difference between right and wrong... you dont need a book some joe everyman wrote thousands of years ago to tell you how to live your life.

[Klash]

Re: With all of the religions out there

I think that what seperates theists from non theists is interpretation of experience. The philosophical community as well as the scientific community is, for the most part, split. They debate the issues all over the place and I highly doubt that anyone's mind is changed in the process. For those that believe, there is blinding evidence to support their beliefs and they cannot comprehend how anyone could be a non-theist. The same holds true for most if not all agnostics and atheists. While the debates are interesting and informative on both sides, it comes down to faith. I don't get how anyone could deny that, at the very least, there is intelligent design and thus a Creator, but there are many who just don't get how I can believe that there is a Creator who not only designed everything but is active in our lives and shows infinite mercy and love for His creation.

Our interpretations of our experiences are determined by our philosophical beliefs. My mind was changed by the debate. It took a while but it is interesting to have the perspective of both sides.

I'll give you an example.
I was about a 16 or 17 year old christian, when I remember reading something Thomas Jefferson said; "Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear." That quote was quite thought provoking for me [because man requires reason to live but the omnipotent god that created us to survive via reason was wanting us to forgo it when it came to questions about him.] but I experienced anxiety from my thoughts, because I knew my omniscient god must have realized the disruption in the force. It is weird to look back on the situation from my perspective now and realize how indoctrinated I was, that I feared to think about anything that opposed my christian beliefs, in fear of letting down my god.

I think the difference between theist's and non-theists is intellectual honesty.

[T-Man007]

Re: With all of the religions out there

Our interpretations of our experiences are determined by our philosophical beliefs. My mind was changed by the debate. It took a while but it is interesting to have the perspective of both sides.

I'll give you an example.
I was about a 16 or 17 year old christian, when I remember reading something Thomas Jefferson said; "Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear." That quote was quite thought provoking for me [because man requires reason to live but the omnipotent god that created us to survive via reason was wanting us to forgo it when it came to questions about him.] but I experienced anxiety from my thoughts, because I knew my omniscient god must have realized the disruption in the force. It is weird to look back on the situation from my perspective now and realize how indoctrinated I was, that I feared to think about anything that opposed my christian beliefs, in fear of letting down my god.

I think the difference between theist's and non-theists is intellectual honesty.

See, that's where we are different. I don't fear thinking about things that oppose Christianity. I've given many people and topics a fair shake, but at the end of the day, their belief or the topic had holes in it or man made theories to attempt to fill in the holes. I conintuously found that the Bible, written by some eye witnesses, had more credibility than science.

I'll give you an example: when I was in grade school the presumtion was the earth was 100 million years old based on man made calculations using carbon dating. The method has not changed, yet, now all of a sudden it presumed the earth is now a billion years old. Well, if the method for carbon dating hasn't changed, why have the dates changed? I remember because I was hugely attracted to dinosours as a kid and I remmeber as the decades went by, the ages of the dinosours increased. The honest intelligence is that man, at his best, is manipulating science to support evolution. There are scientists today who will tell you evolution is nothing more than a theory which will eventually be disproven because there are too many holes in it. To think that a single cell organism could evolve into a human being would require that the end result be designed into it's DNA. However, if the very first single cell organism is responsible for all the life on this planet it would have had to contain ALL the DNA that would become ALL of the animals on this planet. That's just impossible! There is no way for an animal to develope wings without the DNA to do so prewired into it's DNA. Thus, birds could not have come from reptiles. If the DNA for an animal to be cold blooded where its prominant feature, how did that DNA get over written so that animals could be warm blooded? Science acts as if reptiles jsut turned into mamals. Come on! So why are there still reptiles then? Why have the alligators evolved into warm blooded animals yet? They have the same DNA as their dinosour ancestors don't they? Science will tell you that aligators and cracodiles are in fact surviors from the dinosour age. Yet, they haven't evolved. Again, if the very first organism on the planet had the DNA to create all animals then the aligator and the crocadile should have some to become warm blooded or grow wings or something.

The truth is, and this is coming from a science professor at UCCS, science keeps dating things older and older to try and make evolution look like a very long process. There was a dig (in Arkansas I think) where a farmer sold off some land. During the dig they found the remains of a pig. These so called scientisits carbon dated the pig to be 30,000 years old. When they announced it the farmer went public and said the he buried that pig himself and it was only a few years old! Carbon dating is not accurate, there are too many unknown variables.

[Klash]

Re: With all of the religions out there

See, that's where we are different. I don't fear thinking about things that oppose Christianity. I've given many people and topics a fair shake, but at the end of the day, their belief or the topic had holes in it or man made theories to attempt to fill in the holes. I conintuously found that the Bible, written by some eye witnesses, had more credibility than science.


I'll give you an example: when I was in grade school the presumtion was the earth was 100 million years old based on man made calculations using carbon dating. The method has not changed, yet, now all of a sudden it presumed the earth is now a billion years old. Well, if the method for carbon dating hasn't changed, why have the dates changed? I remember because I was hugely attracted to dinosours as a kid and I remmeber as the decades went by, the ages of the dinosours increased. The honest intelligence is that man, at his best, is manipulating science to support evolution. There are scientists today who will tell you evolution is nothing more than a theory which will eventually be disproven because there are too many holes in it. To think that a single cell organism could evolve into a human being would require that the end result be designed into it's DNA. However, if the very first single cell organism is responsible for all the life on this planet it would have had to contain ALL the DNA that would become ALL of the animals on this planet. That's just impossible! There is no way for an animal to develope wings without the DNA to do so prewired into it's DNA. Thus, birds could not have come from reptiles. If the DNA for an animal to be cold blooded where its prominant feature, how did that DNA get over written so that animals could be warm blooded? Science acts as if reptiles jsut turned into mamals. Come on! So why are there still reptiles then? Why have the alligators evolved into warm blooded animals yet? They have the same DNA as their dinosour ancestors don't they? Science will tell you that aligators and cracodiles are in fact surviors from the dinosour age. Yet, they haven't evolved. Again, if the very first organism on the planet had the DNA to create all animals then the aligator and the crocadile should have some to become warm blooded or grow wings or something.

The truth is, and this is coming from a science professor at UCCS, science keeps dating things older and older to try and make evolution look like a very long process. There was a dig (in Arkansas I think) where a farmer sold off some land. During the dig they found the remains of a pig. These so called scientisits carbon dated the pig to be 30,000 years old. When they announced it the farmer went public and said the he buried that pig himself and it was only a few years old! Carbon dating is not accurate, there are too many unknown variables.

O.k., man's attempt to explain human origins through reason have left you dissatisfied but why do you resort back to a belief that replaces man's ignorance (on human origins) with a faith in the supernatural. Even an Actual discrediting of a scientific theory does not even come close to supporting the beliefs the religious fall back on after they deny a scientific theory.

Early religions are mans first attempts at filling in the holes of ignorance and satisfying curiosity. I think when one is indoctrinated at an early age with religion, it is easier to just remain comfortable with what one has already learned and besides, it is just as legitimate as any other religion or philosophy built around the supernatural.

An error in science does not equal a correction in religion.