This makes me want to puke!

[daved150]

Re: This makes me want to puke!

I'm curious... have any of you heard whats happening with the Italians and the Italian secret agent that was killed by american friendly fire? This has turned into a "major political incident" but I have a fealing that the majority of the american public arn't even aware of it.

i heared the italian gov. released there report on the insident, witch confirmed that they speeded towards a check point, had warning shots fired over the vehicle. one of the gaurds (italian) said that they didnt know where the shots were comming from and feared they were coming from insurgents, becouse of the kaos and the speed in witch this all transpired, they sped up, not realising where they were, towards the american military. not informing u.s. military that they were going there to pay off the ransom for a hostage (something that would internationally embarrese them) the u.s. had no clue who they were, and fired on the vehicle.thats what i heared. also, fed. officails here are upset that italian officials held back this report due to the ransom payment made to insurgents. they didnt want that getting out for fear that kidnapping may increase.

[Got Gear?]

Re: This makes me want to puke!

i heard about it. i heard he was speading thru spot checks refusing to stop. not sure if thats bullshit or not

There's 2 sides to the story. But some background 1st: Basicly what happened was that a famous Italian reported was kidnapped in Iraq. Became a huge story for the Italians... the Italians sent in a member of their secret service who managed to negotiate her release. They got her, get everyone into a car and were headed to the airport to get her home when they came under fire.

US army side: Driver of the car was speeding, ignored signals to stop (waving hands, some sort of lights), also ignored "warning shot", and were tragicly killed when they attempted to "put a bullet into engine block". No mention of multiple checkpoints being ran.

Italian side: Reporter lady survived along with another vehicle occupant. Their responce: "What warning signs?? We called ahead and let them know we were comming. Everything was normal until vehicle suddenly came under a hail of bullets."

Their car was full of many bullet holes from automatic weapons fire which puts the american story in suspect. Plus the fact that it just doesn't make sence for these guys to purposely run a checkpoint. They did an interview with a guy who used to run a US checkpoint. And he basicly said that the american warning system for these checkpoints is crap and that's why alot of innocent people have been killed at them. The "hand signals" are done so far away that you'd never be able to see them. The "flashing lights" are useless in the desert sun, and the "warning shot" is also useless because you have no idea that a bullet has been shot. He actually admitted that they stole an Iraqi "STOP" sign and it helped a great deal.

Again.. it just doesn't make sence to me. I do not understand why a better checkpoint system cannot be figured out. Like build a baracade and wait until the vehicle stops before aproaching it. If they blast through the baricade...then open fire.

[daved150]

Re: This makes me want to puke!

gg? i dont believe the u.s. military knew there were going in there to "negotiate" her freedom. had they'd known, do you NOT believe they wouldnt have lent full support, tactical or other, if asked? i believe that they would NOT want ANYONE u.s., british, insurgent or others to know that they were willing to PAY to release hostages...that would open the flood gate to italian hostage taking!!! but it may have been a good ideal to notify militay officials. at least thats the way i see it

[Got Gear?]

Re: This makes me want to puke!

gg? i dont believe the u.s. military knew there were going in there to "negotiate" her freedom. had they'd known, do you NOT believe they wouldnt have lent full support, tactical or other, if asked? i believe that they would NOT want ANYONE u.s., british, insurgent or others to know that they were willing to PAY to release hostages...that would open the flood gate to italian hostage taking!!! but it may have been a good ideal to notify militay officials. at least thats the way i see it

I don't know where you herd your info from but It's sure a heck of alot different than mine.

1 thing I know for sure.. they were on their way BACK from rescueing the hostage and she was in the vehicle when it happened.

As far as not telling anyone... yes I agree that is what happened. They didn't tell anyone about their trip.. but I don't think they tell anyone about most of their trips.. they've probably got 100's of things going at at once. And yes.. they did not want to advertise that they paid the $$$.

I was told that they called the airport and told the americans they were comming, but they either did not communicate that info to the checkpoint or did not do it soon enough.

[daved150]

Re: This makes me want to puke!

I don't know where you herd your info from but It's sure a heck of alot different than mine.

1 thing I know for sure.. they were on their way BACK from rescueing the hostage and she was in the vehicle when it happened. So at least some of your info is wrong.

i didnt say they was'nt....they absolutley was on there wat BACK from her release, with her in the car....no different. the biggest differance is from what you heard and what i heard is the "rescue" part. If the italian goverment had notified military officials that they were gonna be there, there would be less of a chance of this happening. becouse they were PAYING A RANSOM, they did not want to notify anyone, and it resulted in this bullshit. and i heared this on the radio (wwjr detroit am770) on my way to work. i have read other snipets here and there, and the accounts all seem to fall in line for the most part....why did they not inform ANYONE that they would be there? if i was going to pull a buddy out of a hostile position, i damn sure would want local law enforcement to know..

[daved150]

Re: This makes me want to puke!

i re-read my original post and i apoligize bro, on the net it's hard to communicate sometimes.
how i should have put that was,
the us military not being informed of there intentions of paying the ranson, hence not know that they where speeding AWAY from the insurgents with the freed reporter.....
soory bro, didnt mean to imply that they were on the way there...just that they said nothing, so no-one would expect a speeding car with a freed hostage...hope you understand what i was saying now, couse i'm all f*cked up!!

[Got Gear?]

Re: This makes me want to puke!

i didnt say they was'nt....they absolutley was on there wat BACK from her release, with her in the car....no different. the biggest differance is from what you heard and what i heard is the "rescue" part. If the italian goverment had notified military officials that they were gonna be there, there would be less of a chance of this happening. becouse they were PAYING A RANSOM, they did not want to notify anyone, and it resulted in this bullshit. and i heared this on the radio (wwjr detroit am770) on my way to work. i have read other snipets here and there, and the accounts all seem to fall in line for the most part....why did they not inform ANYONE that they would be there? if i was going to pull a buddy out of a hostile position, i damn sure would want local law enforcement to know..

Well see, this is where our points of view change. This was a rescue mission... your not supposed to tell anyone. They went there with money in hand, but have more than the americans to worry about. I'm pretty sure you will find this to be common practice. If it's a secret mission...you gotta keep it a secret.

But even putting that asside.. do you not agree that there needs to be a better warning system than to start shooting near oncomming cars?

Who's more at fault? The allies who did not tell the americans they were comming. Or the americans for not properly informing the allies that they needed to stop for the checkpoint? Either way you look at it.. the Italians did not even know they were running a checkpoint and I find that to be a HUGE problem. Especially when they thought the americans knew they were coming. And I'm certain that alot of these other civilian deaths at checkpoints were because of the same reason. (IE: the busload of Iraqi women and children). If trained military personal don't recognize a checkpoint, how is an Iraqi civilian supposed to?

[Got Gear?]

Re: This makes me want to puke!

Some more food for thought:

If everyone is supposed to tell the americans they are comming before they approach a checkpoint.. how many cars are they already expecting in a day (this is the only road to the airport so it's going to be a very busy checkpoint)? Is this is the case... then chances are that they have a list of many people/cars they are expecting for that day.

So we know that there is no way the US forces could have known that they were italians in that car.

Do you get where I'm going here? Even if they had been on the list of people expected that day... it wouldn't have made a difference...they didn't get a chance to determine if these were people they were expecting or not before they opened fire.