Is this bull s**t?

[Doggcrapp]

I did scan thru cutting edge and saw posts by Swale (I believe it was) recommending HCG mid cycle and posts by Blade (who I have a great respect for) talking about his 2 on 2 off cycles and stringing up to 6 together if antiestrogens were used intermittently--so i dont see your point. Ive said repeatedly during the Cycles on Pennies thread---will my methods get the hpta completely back in check? Hell no it wont but IMO its alot better sending signals to the HPTA at shortened pertinent times then blast juice all year long with no care for your axis at all. Your saying any amount of exog test in the body renders arimidex clomid HCG and nolvadex completely useless? Why do doctors use some or all of those with HRT therapies or gels? Why do people use HCG mid cycle? How many lifters (75% at least) think they are off cycle but still have exogenous compounds floating around in their bloodstream due to the steroid being hydrolized slowly in scar tissue or fat or their miscalculations on duration of said steroid. Those same lifters are using clomid hcg and nolvadex as soon as their cycles end and have done so for years with success--so i dont think very small amounts of testost in the body render ancillary meds useless. I singled you out because I saw you on this board at least 3 times in past posts saying the only usefull thing that comes out of my mouth is about stretching---your entitled to your opinion and Im giving you my opinion.

[prolangtum]

Fair enough. HCG is used mainly to keep the testes from atrophying, but it can actually shut you down even more. I respect you as a BBer, what you have done has worked for you, as well as many others. Alls i was trying to get across, was to make sure people will not have false hope tha they are recovering during the crusie period. Just because i personally cant gain off your workouts, doesnt mean others cant. Many people do HIT type workouts with success, i cant. I do hate you in one regard though. That quad strecth is murder!!! I have just had on more than a few occasions, someone pm me and ask about yoru cruise period etc, and they seem to get the vibe that they will recover during this period. If we didnt have different opinions on different things, what fun would these boards be anyways?

Originally posted by Doggcrapp
I did scan thru cutting edge and saw posts by Swale (I believe it was) recommending HCG mid cycle and posts by Blade (who I have a great respect for) talking about his 2 on 2 off cycles and stringing up to 6 together if antiestrogens were used intermittently--so i dont see your point. Ive said repeatedly during the Cycles on Pennies thread---will my methods get the hpta completely back in check? Hell no it wont but IMO its alot better sending signals to the HPTA at shortened pertinent times then blast juice all year long with no care for your axis at all. Your saying any amount of exog test in the body renders arimidex clomid HCG and nolvadex completely useless? Why do doctors use some or all of those with HRT therapies or gels? Why do people use HCG mid cycle? How many lifters (75% at least) think they are off cycle but still have exogenous compounds floating around in their bloodstream due to the steroid being hydrolized slowly in scar tissue or fat or their miscalculations on duration of said steroid. Those same lifters are using clomid hcg and nolvadex as soon as their cycles end and have done so for years with success--so i dont think very small amounts of testost in the body render ancillary meds useless. I singled you out because I saw you on this board at least 3 times in past posts saying the only usefull thing that comes out of my mouth is about stretching---your entitled to your opinion and Im giving you my opinion.

[tony_canuck]

either way guys, this is a very interesting thread....

[timtim]

Got a quick question - This may be the wrong place for this. If so, shoot me. Is it always necessary to use shit like clomid and nolva when coming off a cycle? Today was the end of an 8 week dbol/sust thing. I was taking dbol at 40/d for the last two weeks and 500 sust throughout. My guys look fine - better than after my previous cycle. All my other equipment is functioning. Thanks for any advice. BTW, I got the stuff (clomid, nolva). Just am feeling like I want to take a break from pills and shit.

Cheers.

[prolangtum]

Originally posted by timtim

Is it always necessary to use shit like clomid and nolva when coming off a cycle?

Yes!

[Striated]

This is perhaps one of the best threads I have ever read. It's been a few months since the last post. Have the views/consensus changed at all during this time? I'm thinking of employing a DC regimen. It looks to me like he's just bridging. I understand that endogenous test is not returned to normal during this time.

The persuasive element to his argument is the idea that coming off roids completely, then going back on is a real pain in the butt. If someone is determined to do say, 3 or 4 cycles, it makes sense to me to stay on and bridge. Then go off for as long as it takes to get the testes and receptors fresh again.

I'm not an expert, but budget and liver permitting... it looks good!

[spidey]

Originally posted by timtim
Got a quick question - This may be the wrong place for this. If so, shoot me. Is it always necessary to use shit like clomid and nolva when coming off a cycle? Today was the end of an 8 week dbol/sust thing. I was taking dbol at 40/d for the last two weeks and 500 sust throughout. My guys look fine - better than after my previous cycle. All my other equipment is functioning. Thanks for any advice. BTW, I got the stuff (clomid, nolva). Just am feeling like I want to take a break from pills and shit.

Cheers.

Yes. clomid is necessary. You feel fine right now because you just finished your cycle and there is still a lot of exogenous test floating around in your system. In a few weeks, that will have cleared and your test levels will plummet because your HPTA is supressed. Clomid therapy will (usually) get your HPTA active more quickly so as to minimize the crash. If you don't take anything, like as not you will crash; lose most of your gains and be depressed, etc.

[spidey]

Originally posted by Doggcrapp
I did scan thru cutting edge and saw posts by Swale (I believe it was) recommending HCG mid cycle and posts by Blade (who I have a great respect for) talking about his 2 on 2 off cycles and stringing up to 6 together if antiestrogens were used intermittently--so i dont see your point. Ive said repeatedly during the Cycles on Pennies thread---will my methods get the hpta completely back in check? Hell no it wont but IMO its alot better sending signals to the HPTA at shortened pertinent times then blast juice all year long with no care for your axis at all. Your saying any amount of exog test in the body renders arimidex clomid HCG and nolvadex completely useless? Why do doctors use some or all of those with HRT therapies or gels? Why do people use HCG mid cycle? How many lifters (75% at least) think they are off cycle but still have exogenous compounds floating around in their bloodstream due to the steroid being hydrolized slowly in scar tissue or fat or their miscalculations on duration of said steroid. Those same lifters are using clomid hcg and nolvadex as soon as their cycles end and have done so for years with success--so i dont think very small amounts of testost in the body render ancillary meds useless. I singled you out because I saw you on this board at least 3 times in past posts saying the only usefull thing that comes out of my mouth is about stretching---your entitled to your opinion and Im giving you my opinion.

Let me preface what I am about to say: Dogcrapp, you have been around bodybuilding a lot longer than I and I do not doubt you know your stuff when it comes to diet and training.

OK, that being said, I want to address a couple of your points above:

Your saying any amount of exog test in the body renders arimidex clomid HCG and nolvadex completely useless? Why do doctors use some or all of those with HRT therapies or gels? Your analogy is a little flawed. People on doctor prescribed HRT are on that therapy BECAUSE they have low endogenous test levels. The goal of HRT is to raise them to normal. Normal test levels would not be expected to be terrible inhibiting to the HPTA. An analogy to someone on HRT taking clomid would be a normal male with normal test levels NOT on steroids taking clomid.

So, it's not that ANY amount of exogenous test will render ancillaries useless but it is a biological fact that SUPRAPHYSIOLOGICAL levels of any androgen (including test) will inhibit the HPTA through negative inhibition feedback. Now, given that a normal male only produces about 100 mg test a week, 400 mg test a week is definately supraphysiological. How is your HPTA supposed to recover in any way if you are suppressing it at the same time with higher than normal test levels? Answer: It can't.

Why do people use HCG mid cycle?

Mainly for aesthetic reasons to keep testicular atrophy at bay. If the leydig cells are allowed to atrophy, it may take longer for them to recover later. HCG will actually inhibit the HPTA on it's own. It mimicks luetinizing hormone and thus "tricks" your testicals into producing test. However, exogenous luetinizing hormone inhibits the HPTA just like test. The brain looks out there and sees plenty on LH so it doesn't feel the need to make more.

How many lifters (75% at least) think they are off cycle but still have exogenous compounds floating around in their bloodstream due to the steroid being hydrolized slowly in scar tissue or fat or their miscalculations on duration of said steroid. Those same lifters are using clomid hcg and nolvadex as soon as their cycles end and have done so for years with success

Everyone I have known or heard about on the boards do not start their post cycle therapy immediately after their cycle ends. They wait for some amount of time (depending on whether they were using short acting or longer acting drugs) before popping their first clomid. People coming off test enan cycles generally are advised to wait at least two weeks before starting clomid therapy. This is to allow the exogenous test levels to drop a bit so that there won't be such an inhibiting environment. Additionally, clomid therapy is generally continued for 2 to 5 weeks; giving exo test levels even more opportunity to drop. The time to wait is also governed by how androgenic the drugs you were taking are. For example, the HPTA can handle higher levels of EQ without being inhibited than it can more powerful androgens like test or tren.