Tren & Deca

[JR420]

Why is it bad to use tren while taking deca? I ask this because I'm starting my second part of my cycle this week and I just did my last deca injection on Thursday! Do you think I will be ok to start my tren tomorrow?

[Fierce149]

I think most people worry about the increased chance of prog. gyno, and being shut down hard, but i wouldnt worry about it since your doing deca then tren afterwards. btw your cycle looks good.

[bigdan]

i was wondering the same ? but i was gonna stop deca start eq for 3-4 weeks then add the tren.

[Plucks]

I have always been told that deca and tren in a same cycle causes you to look like Jenna jameson. The two together cause a more difficult type of gyno to get rid of or to handle. So i would say if you are going to use them even in the same cycle if not together then have nolva, and bromo on hand.

[goliath.jr]

progesterone induced titties are sexy, yes?



...you may be fine. you may grow BT's...

[BossDJ02]

Originally posted by ironfist
Nothing wrong with a nice set of D cups...

oh hell no! hahaha

[prolangtum]

Tren/Deca/Drol, and I still have A- cups. Nolvadex should lower IGF-1 which progeterone raises, so gyno shouldnt be a problem, as progesterone doesnt directly cause gyno.

[bigdan]

i am gonna run the the eq for 8-10 wk but nothing but eq and test for 4 wks after i stop the deca then add the fina

[rippedchef]

I get better results with a little test when I use tren-then go tren only last 2 weeks while the test clears then its hcg and clomid

[goliath.jr]

Originally posted by prolangtum
Nolvadex should lower IGF-1 which progeterone raises, so gyno shouldnt be a problem

maybe i'm missing something here, but how would a decrease in IGF-1 prevent progesterone gyno?

[prolangtum]

Originally posted by goliath.jr
maybe i'm missing something here, but how would a decrease in IGF-1 prevent progesterone gyno?

I always refer to Nandi on this one:
There is not one case of progesterone induced gyno in the medical literature EXCEPT in those cases where strong synthetic progestins, like medroxyprogesterone, were administered. In these cases the gyno is due to suppression of LH and testosterone by the progestin, NOT by a direct effect on breast tissue. On a cycle your LH is already suppressed by the AAS anyway.

Breasts have two components: alveoli and ducts. The alveoli are what secrete milk; they drain into ducts. Gynecomastia is the result of ductal hyperplasia, not alveolar hyperplasia. Estrogen stimulates the ductal tissue, while progesterone stimulates the alveoli. Alveolar hyperplasia does not contribute to gyno. If you want to read more on breast development, I suggest visiting this site:

http://www.endotext.org/male/male14/male14.htm

In various tissues throughout the body, including cultured neoplastic breast tissue, progestins downregulate the estrogen receptor (1). Progesterone receptor blockers like RU-486 upregulate the estrogen receptor (1). This is consistent with the fact that RU-486 CAUSES gyno in patients in whom it is used to treat Cushing's disease and meningiomas (2).

Progestins are also anti-estrogenic in that they induce the enzyme 17-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase, which catalyzes the oxidation of estradiol to the less potent estrone. Progestins also induce estrogen sulfotransferase, the enzyme which catalyzes the sulfation and inactivation of estrogens.

So do progestins contribute to gyno, and if yes, how so? If you visit the link above you will see that progestins increase IGF-1 levels. As that article indicated, IGF-1 is essential to the the development of mammary tissue. This is also how it is believed that progestins in HRT or oral contraceptives contribute to breast cancer: by increasing IGF-1 levels. But as bodybuilders we are always trying to maximize IGF-1. Hence the futility of trying to lower IGF-1 by blocking progestins. The other anabolics we use will elevate (hopefully) IGF-1, while blocking the progesterone receptor will only increase the levels and activity of estrogen by the mechanisms outlined above.

Two drugs have shown the greatest efficacy in treating gyno: Nolvadex, and Raloxifene, another SERM. Nolvadex has the longest track record, but a recent trial with Raloxifene showed it to be superior to Nolvadex. With these drugs you attack the problem at its source: the estrogen receptor. You get the added benefit of lowering IGF-1. Not a good thing for making gains, but important for treating gyno.

(1) Int J Biol Markers 1995 Jan-Mar;10(1):47-54
Progesterone agonists and antagonists induce down- and up-regulation of estrogen receptors and estrogen inducible genes in human breast cancer cell lines.

(2) J Neurosurg 1991 Jun;74(6):861-6
Treatment of unresectable meningiomas with the antiprogesterone agent mifepristone.
Grunberg SM, Weiss MH, Spitz IM, Ahmadi J, Sadun A, Russell CA, Lucci L, Stevenson LL.
Department of Neurosurgery, University of Southern California School of Medicine, Los Angeles.

[Billy_Bathgate]

Ive ran em both before. Ill be doing 300 deca and 500-750 trenenanthate soon too. i always run nolva and ill have dostinex too...im not worried

[faster]

So let me understand this if I was on fina and or after I finished and started to develop gyno I'd be best taking Nolva correct?

[prolangtum]

Originally posted by faster
So let me understand this if I was on fina and or after I finished and started to develop gyno I'd be best taking Nolva correct?

Yes, since deca and tren are both progesterones, but progesterone hasnt been shown to directly cause gyno, but it does raise IGF-1 which does directly cause gyno, much why some GH users get gyno, from raised IGF-1 levels. Nolva lowers IGF-1 levels

[faster]

Thanks bro I've just been confused with the different gyno terms when on Tren or something like Test. Some say bromo on Tren but in the end gyno from either equals Nolva correct?