The Dball AM Bridge: Proven mathematically and scientifically

[Fonz]

Also, have to add:

The Dball bridge is designed(as Mr. N put it) an OFF-ramp to "off"

Putting it into words:

Main cycle ----- Dball Bridge ----- OFF

NOT Main cycle-dball bridge---main cycle(This is dumb and is what Big Cat failed to understand)

I will stake $1000, that less musce mass will be lost and less of a crash will be seen using the,

Main cycle- dball bridge ---OFF

than

Main cycle - OFF

Any takers?

Come on, LITTLE CAT put your money were your mouth is for once.

Fonz

[Big Cat]

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=111273

Read it and weep loser. Its a joke that you even think you can pass for a scientist with something as feeble as this.

[Big Cat]

wow, was gonna post in the same thread on EF, but see someone else has already ripped you a new one there.

Hmmm, maybe I shouldn't talk so bad about EF, obviously at least some members still have a working brain.

[Fonz]

Originally posted by Big Cat
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hreadid=111273


Read it and weep loser. Its a joke that you even think you can pass for a scientist with something as feeble as this.

Bb.com = garbage

You are the laughing stock of both AF and EF. Deal with it.

Better yet, GET SOME REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE WITH AAS.

As you have NONE.

Fonz

[rado]

Re: The Dball AM Bridge: Proven mathematically and scientifically

Originally posted by Fonz
Thanks to Blade for showing me this...it proved VERY useful.

Acta Endocrinol (Copenh) 1976 Dec;83(4):856-64 Related Articles, Links


Effect of an anabolic steroid (metandienon) on plasma LH-FSH, and testosterone and on the response to intravenous administration of LRH.

Holma P, Adlercreutz H.

Plasma levels of testosterone, luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) as well as the response of LH and FSH to the intravenous administration of 100 mug of luteinizing hormone releasing hormone (LRH) were measured in 16 well-trained athletes (mean age 30 years) before and after 2 months of daily oral intake of 15 mg of metandienon, and anabolic steroid (Anabolin, 17 alpha-methyl-17beta-hydroxy-1,4-androstadien-3-one, Medica, Finland). All athletes continued to train regularly, just as they had done for several years. During administration of metandienon the mean plasma testosterone level fell 69%, from 29.4 +/- 11.6 nmol/1 to 9.1 +/- 7.5 nmol/1. The mean plasma levels of LH and FSH also fell significantly (P less than 0.001 and P less than 0.01, respectively), both about 50%. Because LH and FSH levels were low after administration of the steroid the maximum stimulation values after LRH administration were also lower than pre-treatment values although the mean increments did not differ significantly before and after administration of the anabolic steroid. However, after treatment, the FSH response curve had a biphasic pattern in most subjects, with peaks at 10 to 20 and 50 to 60 min after the iv injection of LRH. Administration of LRH after the treatment period had no effect on FSH secretion in two subjects and no effect on LH secretion in one. Our results show that administration of an anabolic steroid causes a pronounced lowering of plasma levels of testosterone, LH and FSH but causes no gross alteration in the response of LH secretion to stimulation by LRH. The reason for the biphasic response pattern of FSH to LRH administration in most subjects is not known.

Thanks for the article:

Ah...now lets delve into mathematics, shall we:

First: 15mg I said 10mg.

15mg lowered test levels by 69%.

LH and FSH by 50%

Now, lets apply some simple math.

15mg dball will be excreted in.......15mg /average 4hr T-life = Average of:

15mg ------ 7.5mg ------ 3.75mg ------ 1.875mg ------- 0.9875mg

So after overgoing 4 Half-life conversion(I'm not even counting the fact that excercise INCREASES dball excretion btw...by quite a margin)

It took the men roughly 16hrs to get to within reasonable Dball(Androgen concentrations), about roughly 1mg.
In case you're wondering, I'm mathematically comparing the suppression seen by 15mg and 10mg of dball in reference to blood levels and time.
(I'm not even going to state that the study doesn't even say they took it all in the AM....they probably didn't. But I'm feeling charitable today so I'll give you guys a break. I'll stipulate they took i all in the AM)

Now, for 10mg.

10mg ------- 5mg --------- 2.5mg --------1.25mg ---------0.625mg

Linearly speaking, it took 3.4 half-lives or roughly 13.6 hrs to get to 1mg.

Thats 85% of the 15mg Dball study.13.6hrs/16hrs = 0.85

So, Free Test should then become 58.7% decrease and LH and FSH 42.5%

This is using the 4hr half-life. The gold standard for dball.

Now lets add Arimidex and Clomid to the mix shall wee?

Arimidex will INCREASE the decrease in test seen by the AM dball administration via less testosterone being converted into estrogen via the aromatase enzyme.

By how much normally? 58% increase in test.(Look the abstracts up. They've been posted a zillion times...I'm not going to do it for you) And also a large decrease in estrogen mind you.

OK. So now, the 58.7% reduction in test seen for the 10mg Dball is FURTHER reduced to (58.7 * (1-0.58)) = 24. 65%

So, low and behold 10mg AM dball+arimidex BY THEMSELVES cause only a 24.65% drop in test levels. Compare this to the 58.7% seen in the Dball only group. This is why arimidex MUST be used, and why I have said it a zillion times.

Now lets add Clomid and HCG shall we? Good. The math/pharmacology class is proceeding nicely. Clomid will boost both FSH and LH, and HCG will cause yet ANOTHER surge in endo Test levels through its effects on the Leydig cells.
And low and behold, since we are on arimidex, the increase seen will be test only because the aromatase enzyme is being blocked by the arimidex from converting the test surge caused by the HCG into estrogen..

By how much?

I don’t know. But what I do know, is that the 24.65% reduction in testosterone will be reduced even further(By the HCG and the Clomid), and the LH values as well to well less than 45%.

Gee whiz…..am I starting to kill of all the SCIENTIFIC doubters…….. LOL

From my bloodwork(and from other peoples) NOT Clomid and HCG studies, I came up with an INCREASE in Test levels over pre-main cycle levels and an almost normal LH.(Roughly 80-90%) of normal.

The problem was THAT I could not extrapolate info from ANY HCG and Clomid studies b/c they were not on the AM Dball routine.

So, I had to test it on myself and get bloodwork done.

And it WORKED. Yes, it WORKED. My test levels INCREASED while on the Dball AM bridge while my LH slowly recuperated, when compared to pre-main cycle levels.

Again, the dball bridge ONLY works if you take the dball in accordance with your bodies circadian rhythm. If you don’t go to sleep at a certain time and sleep for 8 hours and wake up at a certain time(and then take the 10mg dball right away) CONSISTENTLY, The Dball bridge will then not work properly.

As an addendum, if you actually want to BOOST your LH levels to normal while on the bridge, use 25mg proviron 6-8 weeks before your AM Dball Bridge post-cycle therapy, and you will then be able to increase LH levels to normal.(I already proved this with studies at AF…go look them up. Its in the Hall of Fame) You obviously must use the proviron during the Dball bridge as well.

So, the Bridge becomes:

(6-8 weeks) before end of Main cycle: Start 25mg Proviron

End Main Cycle.

AM Dball Bridge cycle: 8 weeks

#1.Start Bridge at 10mg Dball in the AM upon waking up.
#2 Make damn sure you take the 10mg dball at the same damn
time every day. As soon as you wake up. This wake up time
(if 8 or 9 or 10 AM) must be used for the rest of
the bridge(8 weeks)(Circadian Rhythm is VERY important to
the success of the bridge)
#3 Proviron at 25mgs/day(LH booster)
#4 Arimidex at 1mg ED or more.(2mg is as high as I would go).
#5 HCG at 5000IU’s 2X/week on Weeks 5,6,7,8(Endo Test
Booster)
#6 Clomid at 300mgs Day 1, and then 100mgs/day from then on
until the end of the bridge(LH and FSH Booster)

End result: Test levels HIGHER than pre-main cycle levels…by roughly 20% (Most definately in the normal range), and a normal LH function.
Even better: NO DAMN MUSCLE LOST while coming off the bridge.
Almost EVERY single post-cycle therapy out there causes you to lose muscle(Except for GH/Slin/IGF-1). PERIOD. Well guess what? This one doesn’t.

There, I scientifically and mathematically wise PROVED that the AM Dball Bridge works.

Fonz

good info on this thread kid.

[Chemical Evolution]

Originally posted by ##spiderbaby##
Fonz, I love you man.

Me 2 Bro!
Great work!

[Dragon]

yes, onz is 100 percent correct, cycle--dbol bridge-- cylcle is not a good idea!

[jipped genes]

can't we all just get along?........tear in the eye. How bout a gentle non-gay man hug that's what you need. But really this is a great thread and I would like to see the debate in a realtime chat room.

[Fonz]

LOL......have to love haters....they seem yo be everywhere these days.

The difference between me and you, is that I originate dieas and am always ayhe fore-front of cutting edge. You on ther hand, simply criticize ans sit back an turn into a drone.

BTW, how is all that drivel pertinent to my thread or my intelligence?

Excatly. It isn't. Now go pat yourself in the back for being ignorant.

Anyways, talked it over with some of the guys at AF.....this a more streamlined version, that should work for almost everybody.(Even those who almost always crash):

First, it was decided that the last 4 weeks, of the 8 week ramp-off should be 5mg instaed of 10mg, as you should be recovered by some degree by that time.


This is 5mg time/concentration correlation:


5mg ------- 2.5mg --------1.25mg ------ 0.625mg

Half-lives = 2.4 * 4 = 9.6hrs(to 1mg)

(Compared to 10mg)

9.6/13.6 = 70.59% or 0.7059

Test decrease + LH Decrease

Normal(15mg) = 69% 50%
10mg = 58.7% 42.5%
5mg = 41.43% 30%

Thats w/o arimidex

W/ arimidex:

5mg becomes: 41.43*(1-0.58)= 17.4% Test decrease
And, 30% * 0.42 = 12.6% LH decrease.

10mg time/correlation:

Now, for 10mg.

10mg ------- 5mg --------- 2.5mg --------1.25mg ---------0.625mg

Half-lives = 3.4 * 4 = 13.6hrs(to 1mg)

13.6/16.0 = 85% or 0.85(As compared to 15mg)

Test decrease + LH Decrease

Normal(15mg) = 69% 50%
10mg = 58.7% 42.5%
5mg = 41.43% 30%

Thats w/o arimidex

W/ arimidex:

10mg becomes: 58.7*(1-0.58)= 24.65% Test decrease
And, 30% * 0.42 = 12.6% LH decrease.

These numbers do not include the addition of HCG or Clomid.

End(Finalized Ramp-off):

(6-8 weeks) before end of Main cycle: Start 25mg Proviron

End Main Cycle.

AM Dball off-ramp: 8 weeks

#1.Start Bridge at 10mg Dball in the AM upon
waking up.(Weeks 1-4) and 5mgs(Weeks 5-8)
#2 Make damn sure you take the 10mg dball(Weeks 1-4) at the same damn time every day. As soon as you wake up. This wake up time (if 8 or 9
or 10 AM) must be used for the rest of
the bridge(8 weeks)(Circadian Rhythm is
VERY important to the success of the bridge)
Same with the 5mg dose(Weeks 5-8).
#3 Proviron at 25mgs/day(LH booster)
#4 Arimidex at 1mg ED or more.(2mg is as high as I would go).
#5 HCG at 5000IU’s 2X/week on Weeks 5,6,7,8
(Endo Test Booster)
#6 Clomid at 300mgs Day 1, and then 100mgs/day
from then on until the end of the bridge(LH
and FSH Booster)

As an addition: Androgel might be of definate use in Weeks 5-8 as it roughly doubles Test levels, w/o any decrease in LH. Which will further boost ending ramp-off test levels.

References:

(Thanks to Mr. Nobody and got Wood)

1. Swerdloff, RS, and Wang, C., et al., Long-term pharmacokinetics of transdermal testosterone gel in hypogonadal men., J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2000 Dec;85(12):4500-10.

The intend of agel in the recovery program is for libido purposes, and may delay overall recovery a bit. However, its not just about fast recovery but achieving homeostasis in a managable manner, without slipping into depression and muscle loss while you wait for endo test to come back. The same goes for morning dbol.
As everyone knows already, only time will recover you completely.

from Gotwood:

testo gel lowered LH but not too much

Got Wood? note : these men ranged from 22-65. Testo enanthate (inj) lowered LH too much - to subnormal values. Testo gel lowered LH to normal, but not beyond to a subnormal range. This is evidence that the testo gel may not lower the LH too much, thereby inhibiting recovery. however again these are hypogonadal men.
============================
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1999 Oct;84(10):3469-78

Pharmacokinetics, efficacy, and safety of a permeation-enhanced testosterone transdermal system in comparison with bi-weekly injections of testosterone enanthate for the treatment of hypogonadal men.

Dobs AS, Meikle AW, Arver S, Sanders SW, Caramelli KE, Mazer NA.

Johns Hopkins Medical Center, Baltimore, Maryland 21287, USA. adobs@jhu.edu

The pharmacokinetics, efficacy, and safety of the Androderm testosterone (T) transdermal system (TTD) and intramuscular T enanthate injections (i.m.) for the treatment of male hypogonadism were compared in a 24-week multicenter, randomized, parallel-group study. Sixty-six adult hypogonadal men (22-65 years of age) were withdrawn from prior i.m. treatment for 4-6 weeks and then randomly assigned to treatment with TTD (two 2.5-mg systems applied nightly) or i.m. (200 mg injected every 2 weeks); there were 33 patients per group. Twenty-six patients in the TTD group and 32 in the i.m. group completed the study. TTD treatment produced circadian variations in the levels of total T, bioavailable T, dihydrotestosterone, and estradiol within the normal physiological ranges. i.m. treatment produced supraphysiological levels of T, bioavailable T, and estradiol (but not dihydrotestosterone) for several days after each injection. Mean morning sex hormone levels were within the normal range in greater proportions of TTD patients (range, 77-100%) than i.m. patients (range, 19-84%). Both treatments normalized LH levels in approximately 50% of patients with primary hypogonadism; however, LH levels were suppressed to the subnormal range in 31% of i.m. patients vs. 0% of TTD patients. Both treatments maintained sexual function (assessed by questionnaire and Rigiscan) and mood (Beck Depression Inventory) at the prior treatment levels. Prostate-specific antigen levels, prostate volumes, and lipid and serum chemistry parameters were comparable in both treatment groups. Transient skin irritation from the patches was reported by 60% of the TTD patients, but caused only three patients (9%) to discontinue treatment. i.m. treatment produced local reactions in 33% of patients and was associated with significantly more abnormal hematocrit elevations (43.8% of patients) compared with TTD treatment (15.4% of patients). Gynecomastia resolved more frequently during TTD treatment (4 of 10 patients) than with i.m. treatment (1 of 9 patients). Although both treatments seem to be efficacious for replacing T in hypogonadal men, the more physiological sex hormone levels and profiles associated with TTD may offer possible advantages over i.m. in minimizing excessive stimulation of erythropoiesis, preventing/ameliorating gynecomastia, and not over-suppressing gonadotropins.

Hope you guys like it.

Fonz

[bigjim33]

let's not start the flaming again

[The REAL Bobo]

[Billy_Bathgate]

Originally posted by Mark_B
Oh, for all of you believers b/c of blood tests........ (billy boy)

here is someone who did it........guesss you should drop that dbol and run, b/c he did it and blood tests where bad

-----------------------------------------------------------------

here is a post by MIKEZWAY on another board (badguygear.com)

Well the jury is in. After a mild bout of test and dbol of 6 weeks on and 2 weeks pyramiding down to a bridge cycle of 2 D-bol per day compliments of Cyber mason, I had my blood levels checked. Prior to the cycle cholesterol was fine, Hdls 44, Ldls 120 cholesterol ratio was 4:1 all normal. My liver enzymes were fine, although serum testosterone level were in the toilet both at the start and after the 5 week bridge. This is something my Doctor and I are going to tackle. I wasn't pleased with the results, I figured on only 2 dbol per day my levels would recover. They did not. after 5 weeks on the 2 d-bol per day my livers were doubled and cholesterol was bad. Hdls 22 and ldls 190 with a ratio of 10. According to those numbers I am at high risk for heart diesease. Granted they always recover after 6 or 7 weeks off everything but I was hoping I could cheat it. I have read an article that states even though athletes who perform cardio and lift with good diets may have a high cholesterol ratio they are not at high as risk as someone with the same ratio that does no cardio and has a shitty diet. I will research this more and report back.

Peace
Mikey

LOL...guess you shouldnt use dbol alone for it. Maybe you shoudl use an anti-e and some other things....wait..didnt fonz originally state that?

Did anyone ask me what else I used with my blood work...nope.


Hey I got a question.


How much E2 would be produced from approximately 10mg of dbol?

How much of that would be left by the time you goto bed (thats an easy one since we know that half life...but you have to answer the above first)?

How much E2 does it actually take for significatn suppresion?



So far...reasons it dont work

E2 half life ~48hrs
2.5mg Var can shut you down and on a level field, Dbol IS more suppressive than Var

Well....thats a good attempt to disprove it. But...to really disprove it you need some actual numbers to go by.

Ill give BC some credit..he did actually attemp to answer. But, thee best answer that Ive seen...

It doesnt take much. And from JA...E2 is ~ 200x as suppressive as test. Those are important clues, but to fully disprove this...you cant really just guess that it probally is enough. Thats not disproving really.

Yes it was shown 2.5mg Var was suppressive. Yes Var hardly aromatises...I know this. That is obvious. But what were the levels of the metabolites then and how would they compare against dbols when takin with / without anti-e or other things.


You guys just want to keep dodging this quesiton. I dont know why. If you dont have anythign better to then telling us how stupid and gay we are...why bother even posting at all?

We all know you and bobo and bc and whoever else dont believe it works. Good for you guys. We saw that the first time around. Unless you want to adress specific questions addressing this debate why even go on?

Dont belive my blood work. I dont care. Dont belive Mr Nobody, CjWolf, Ulter, Fonz or whoever. It doesnt matter.

I never stay on much more than 8wks of it btw, I am on nothing at the moment...not much of reason to stay on forever really. Didnt know it was ever advertised to stay on till the next cycle (although I admit I have once).


This is now beyond pointless...

[The REAL Bobo]

Mark, you forgot to post this.

http://209.11.101.247/ubb/Forum1/12-2000/042438.html

[Dragon]

LOL, funny post from the past, but very old, we have all posted stupid stuff before so don't flame,Fonz has been a valuable bro when it some to doing research, but I can careless about scientific mumbo jumbo with out scholarly research. all that math don't mean jack shit and is not really credible.


I know one thing, if you want to keep gains, am dbol works, ,but you will not fully recover, notice I said fully!! I have had blood work and done this many time. If you really care about your natural test levels, , then just follow up cycles like your suppose to with what is proven to work, ie clomid, hcg, armidex, etc and no hormones (AAS). If you don't, than screw the am dbol and just stay on AAS year round.

I foyu really want to bridge safely, consider GH, slin, etc. But follow time on=time off!