Liquidex vs. Nolvadex (the questions continue...)

[Juice Authority]

Originally posted by superchicken
i swear this topic is so screwed up now, rumor rumors rumors and then people blow shit out of proportion and exagerate shit. they hear sothing then they repeat it and change the story a little bit, then then next person does the same......so much bad information on this topic now

Why don't you share your thoughts on it then and clear it up for the rest of us simpletons? I don't who you were directing your statement above to but if was me then what did I say exactly that was "out of proportion or exagerated"?

[dejansen]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Liquidex vs. Nolvadex (the questions continue...)

Originally posted by Juice Authority
It will reduce the bloating and water retention that comes from estrogen sides. Although to some these are desired on mass cycles, however once the cycle is over the bloat subsides and the water weight is lost anyways.

Shouldn't you credit these opinions to Brock Landers at Steroidology (http://www.steroidology.com/forum/sh...&threadid=4316)? And he doesn't seem to be an authority on the subject. I wish someone could offer a definite answer on the subject. Until then, I think I guess it's safe to say one should use Nolva for gyno prevention and Liquidex for bloat. And it's probably healthier to use Liquidex as little as possible. Just because AS may screw with your cholesterol profile is no reason to go all out and ingest something (Liquidex) that may also have a negative effect on your chol. profile IMO.

[Juice Authority]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Liquidex vs. Nolvadex (the questions continue...)

Originally posted by dejansen
Shouldn't you credit these opinions to Brock Landers at Steroidology (http://www.steroidology.com/forum/sh...&threadid=4316)? And he doesn't seem to be an authority on the subject. I wish someone could offer a definite answer on the subject. Until then, I think I guess it's safe to say one should use Nolva for gyno prevention and Liquidex for bloat. And it's probably healthier to use Liquidex as little as possible. Just because AS may screw with your cholesterol profile is no reason to go all out and ingest something (Liquidex) that may also have a negative effect on your chol. profile IMO.

Credit Brock with these opinons?? Brock chimed in on a thread I started over at Steriodology on this issue and confirmed what I already knew to be true. You must have missed that part. Liquidex works by stoping testosterone from aromatising or being converted into estrogen. The controversy to seems to be over whether or not gains are hindered with the use of I-dex or if you just look smaller because of less water retention. My position is the latter.

The bulk of the information was already laid out in detail by Huck and others at EF. These aren't opinions, they are facts. Water weight gains are reduced by using Liquidex. That's why people take it - to reduce the bloat. The gains you keep by using Liquidex during your cycle are leaner. Here's a study you might want to read:

Study Shows That Arimidex Boosts Testosterone

Estrogen suppression in males: metabolic effects.
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2000 Jul;85(7):2370-7 (ISSN: 0021-972X)
Mauras N; O'Brien KO; Klein KO; Hayes V nmauras@nemours.org.

We have shown that testosterone (T) deficiency per se is associated with
marked catabolic effects on protein, calcium metabolism, and body
composition in men independent of changes in GH or insulin-like growth
factor I production. It is not clear,,however, whether estrogens have a
major role in whole body anabolism in males. We investigated the metabolic
effects of selective estrogen suppression in the male using a potent
aromatase inhibitor, Arimidex (Anastrozole). First, a dose-response study of
12 males (mean age, 16.1 +/- 0.3 yr) was conducted, and blood withdrawn at
baseline and after 10 days of oral Arimidex given as two different doses
(either 0.5 or 1 mg) in random order with a 14-day washout in between. A
sensitive estradiol (E2) assay showed an approximately 50% decrease in E2
concentrations with either of the two doses; hence, a 1-mg dose was selected
for other studies. Subsequently, eight males (aged 15-22 yr; four adults and
four late pubertal) had isotopic infusions of [(13)C]leucine and
(42)Ca/(44)Ca, indirect calorimetry, dual energy x-ray absorptiometry,
isokinetic dynamometry, and growth factors measurements performed
before and after 10 weeks of daily doses of Arimidex. Contrary to the effects of T
withdrawal, there were no significant changes in body composition (body mass
index, fat mass, and fat-free mass) after estrogen suppression or in rates
of protein synthesis or degradation; carbohydrate, lipid, or protein
oxidation; muscle strength; calcium kinetics; or bone growth factors
concentrations. However, E2 concentrations decreased 48% (P = 0.006), with
no significant change in mean and peak GH concentrations, but with an 18%
decrease in plasma insulin-like growth factor I concentrations. There was a
58% increase in serum T (P = 0.0001), sex hormone-binding globulin did not
change, whereas LH and FSH concentrations increased (P < 0.02, both). Serum
bone markers, osteocalcin and bone alkaline phosphatase concentrations, and
rates of bone calcium deposition and resorption did not change. In
conclusion, these data suggest that in the male 1) estrogens do not
contribute significantly to the changes in body composition and protein
synthesis observed with changing androgen levels; 2) estrogen is a main
regulator of the gonadal-pituitary feedback for the gonadotropin axis; and
3) this level of aromatase inhibition does not negatively impact either
kinetically measured rates of bone calcium turnover or indirect markers of
bone calcium turnover, at least in the short term. Further studies will
provide valuable information on whether timed aromatase inhibition can be
useful in increasing the height potential of pubertal boys with profound
growth retardation without the confounding negative effects of gonadal
androgen suppression.

[Juice Authority]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Liquidex vs. Nolvadex (the questions continue...)

Originally posted by dejansen
I wish someone could offer a definite answer on the subject. Until then, I think I guess it's safe to say one should use Nolva for gyno prevention and Liquidex for bloat. And it's probably healthier to use Liquidex as little as possible. Just because AS may screw with your cholesterol profile is no reason to go all out and ingest something (Liquidex) that may also have a negative effect on your chol. profile IMO.

Look, in my opinion, HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex at EF is the absolute expert in this area. If the information I posted isn't convincing enough then I would suggest you email him or PM Huck at Elite. Below is his email address.

huckleberry@elitefitness.com

Juice

[intense]

Well don't you have to shake the bottle vigorously?

and use a good measuring device?

...in reference to screwing up this subject...

to be honest...there is not a simple answer to this question...

[superchicken]

Originally posted by intense


to be honest...there is not a simple answer to this question...

BINGO!!!
actually there is NO answer, its a matter of pros and cons, and doses of both anti e's and the drugs taken all affect the outcome. ive written a bit on this subject more than a few times, but nobody listens, so im finsihed, i know the answers so i could care less.

[BullFX]

i don tthink nolva does much for water... i would go with ledx

[intense]

hey geared, you may want to create an anti-e section, there is so much info on this matter, it gets real confusing when it crammed in this section.

Call it the ant-e section I guess. Then we can post all our gyno questions there.

[The_CR0W]

Thanks for posting the research studies. I'm very hesistant in using more than .25 mg of A-dex per day. I want to go with .25mg EOD.


So that brings me to my next question, would would be more of an effective measure to prevent the formation of gyno and not raise hell on my Lipid Profile.

A) .25mg A-dex EOD
B) 10mg of Nolva EOD

please give me your input on that...

[Pheedno]

Heres a study that shows L-dex not having a negative effect on lipids

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12538502&dopt=Abstract

It's individualistic. L-dex's mechanism of action does present the possiblity of having a negative effect on lipids, but I have never seen a case study that shows this in the doses we consume. I use it because it hasn't had effects on HDL in my own blood work.

But I recommend that you use both L-dex and Nolva at the same time. L-dex for estrogenic supression, and Nolva for it's SERM properties.

[The_CR0W]

Can you explain bro what exactly SERM is pertaining to?

To be honest, I'm not clear what SERM is, I know what SPERM is lol.

Also, well from the research that was presented in this post and also some other research I have conducted, you sem to be right in using nolva and a-dex together. However, I think I will save Nolva for PCT along with Clomid.

I will follow a clomid schedule which will consist of taking 300mg of clomid 3 weeks after my deca shot, then take 100mg/day for 10 days, and then take 50mg/day for 10 more days.

Along with that I will throw in Nolva at 20mg EOD starting after my last injection of Deca.

During the cycle I will go with A-dex at .25mg EOD, If I feel Gyno still developing I will up the dosage to .50mg and throw in nolva also. I think I'll wait until end of week 2 to start the A-dex.

What do you think about this regime?

Please critique

[Pheedno]

SERM-(Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator)
Binds to the ER and can reduce blood estrogen(which is the bad stuff) but also mimicks bone and liver estrogen, which aid in regulating lipids

[ChrisAdams]

As far as arimidex reducing gains.. wouldn't it make sense that less water retention = less strength? Less strength = lighter lifting = less hypertrophy = less gains.

[Mudge]

That could be one reason to claim that, but I think in moderation liquidex isn't going to hurt your cholesterol that much or hurt your gains excessively either. Just like with the 17aa talk lately, I think people exaggerate from time to time about the world falling down.

[Squirrel Masta]

A waste of money in my opinion, but thats just me. I can hardly notice a difference in me with or without liquidex.