IMPORTANT QUESTION

[TestRip7]

Re: IMPORTANT QUESTION

Well, I did some research on it and posted something a while back. There was a study done by Finish doctors/scientists (don't remember which ones) that used three study groups. One was natural, one on aas only and one on aas with GH. The only group that showed marked increase in left ventricle hypertrophy was the group on both aas and GH. Of course, the study was performed with the combination of resistence training as well. They said all three groups showed some increase as a result of the weight training but it was only the group with aas and GH that made them worry. Their conclusion was that aas alone, or natural, didn't not increase the left ventricle any differently.

One thing they did not state though, was whether or not these groups took part in cardio vascular training. This has been my worry all along and I got in a debate with someone about it and jazzrabbit posted something that stated that aas had no effect on hypertrophy of the left ventricle.

So, according to two studies I have read, the conclusion of experts is there is no effect from just aas use. However, like I stated, neither specifically states whether the subjects underwent cardio training. IMO, I would probably avoid high intensity cardio while on. With that said, it's a proven fact that you burn more 'fat' while doing lower intensity for longer periods and if one was to follow that model then I would assume they would be safer than someone who was on a high aas dose and performing intense cardio activity. This is just my assumption and I have yet to read anything to confirm it, it's just seems logical to me.

Very good point T-man. That is what I kind of figured, but it's always good to hear it from a study. Do you have any links to those studys bro?

[6p6]

Re: IMPORTANT QUESTION

When i was on M1T that shit made my left ventricular wall grow twice the size. i was pretty freaked out, it was because my resting b/p was 220/90 and apparently i was holding a lot of water weight (i didnt see it but thats what my cardiologist said) the only good thing is that she said that it will go down as long as i do a lot of cardio (mind you this was about 4 years ago).

as mick-g posted, he is right, athletes have shown to have bigger right ventricles than non-athletes as they are usually running more but also requiring more testosterone to be produced. testosterone has also shown to be good for the heart, BUT most steroids that are just testosterone (ones that that have altered the chemical structure of testosterone) have shown that they harden arteries. thats really the only proven effect that steroids can have. when i had sat down with a HRT doctor he was tellin me that straight cypionate/enathate in safe ranges arent bad for you and can actually give you cardiac benefits, but high dosages can cause damage. he also said this about derivatives of testosterone as well...

feel free to correct me if i am wrong somewhere...

well I was going to say something like that but you already did...good reply boss

[badasz32]

Re: IMPORTANT QUESTION

from my understanding aas only cause growth in skeletal muscle. cardiac muscle shouldnt be affected. i just talk to my boy in med school at SIU. he said being an athlete could potentially cause an enlarged heart. he said that since i was a D I swimmer i might have an enlarged heart from all the cardio training.

[daddy1122]

Re: IMPORTANT QUESTION

from my understanding aas only cause growth in skeletal muscle. cardiac muscle shouldnt be affected. i just talk to my boy in med school at SIU. he said being an athlete could potentially cause an enlarged heart. he said that since i was a D I swimmer i might have an enlarged heart from all the cardio training.

yeah your buddy in med school is right. and you probably do have an enlarged heart, but its not your heart at whole. it is just your right ventricle. Never found out why (still searching) but I remember when i went through my bullshit with my heart and M1T, my cardiologist told me that it is 100% normal for athletes to have enlarged right side ventricles and it is not a bad thing, but good..

[T-Man007]

Re: IMPORTANT QUESTION

Very good point T-man. That is what I kind of figured, but it's always good to hear it from a study. Do you have any links to those studys bro?

Let me try to find them for your bro.

[T-Man007]

Re: IMPORTANT QUESTION

Here is the post on one of them:

Well, I stand corrected! Damn, I hate to be wrong but that's what happens when you don't continue learning. LOL I first learned of the heart thing several years ago and apparently some Austrailian scientists proved there is some, but minimal effect aas has on heart size. However, recent studies by Finnish scientists have proven that even though aas only has minor effects on heart size the combonation of aas and GH has significant effects on heart size. Read this:

The debate on the effect of anabolic substances on the structure of the heart reached another phase, since Finnish scientists studied twenty local bodybuilders who had just finished their cycles. Steroids don’t damage the heart, the researchers found. But the combination of steroids and growth hormone does.

Context

Since the eighties scientists have been discussing whether steroids enlarge the heart, when several sports investigators learned steroid use was associated with enlargement of the left ventricular mass – the part of the heart that pumps oxygenated blood through the body. An overdeveloped left ventricle causes arrhythmia and, in severe cases, death. In 2001 Australian physicians found the hypertrophy in clean strength athletes and postulated that this condition was caused by weight training, not steroid use. They also found that the hypertrophy didn’t impair their subjects’ health.

The new Finnish study, published in the International Journal of Sports Medicine in the summer of 2003, doesn’t contradict the Australian study. Nevertheless, it provides insight into the relationship between anabolic substances and heart hypertrophy.

Study

The Finnish ran an advertorial in a bodybuilding magazine on their project. Twenty bodybuilders, who had planned to do a cycle and bought their medication on the black market, responded. Before their cycle started the bodybuilders had their medication checked and analysed by the pharmacological department of the university. Not unnecessary, because up to fifty percent of the European black steroids may be counterfeited, according to the latest estimates.

Sixteen bodybuilders used steroids only. The weekly doses varied from a few hundred milligrams to more than thousand milligrams.

Four athletes stacked their steroids with growth hormone. All four used moderate dosages of two, three or four IU’s during four to six weeks. The growth hormone was injected once daily, mostly in the evening. In this group steroid doses were 1,3 times higher than in the steroids only group.

When their cycles ended, the bodybuilders had their hearts examined. The table below summarizes some results. The control group consisted of fifteen young males with active life styles who didn’t engage in weight training.

Results

Control(15), Steroids(16), Steroids + GH(4)
Heart rate 66 bpm 65 bpm 65 bpm
Systolic blood pressure 131 mmHg 131 mmHg 130 mmHg
Diastolic blood pressure 77 mmHg 76 mmHg 89 mmHg
Left ventricular weight 167 g 257 g 342 g
Ratio left ventricular weight: length 93 g/m 141 g/m 191 g/m
Relative wall thinkness 0,37 0,42 0,53
Ratio early peak flow velocity: peak atrial flow velocity (E/A ratio) 1,66 1,72 1,29

Steroids and the combination of steroids and growth hormone change the structure of the heart, the table suggests. But that doesn’t have any consequences for the cardiovascular health of at least the steroid users. Their diastolic blood pressure – reported to rise phenomenally in some steroid related medical horror-stories – was fine, and more interestingly, their E/A ratio improved. Cardiologists use the E/A ratio to measure the hearts efficiency. According to the table, in the steroids only group deterioration of the heart muscle didn’t occur.

But growth hormone, well, that is another story. The table speaks for itself. The higher steroid doses that the GH-users took can only explain a small part of the serious ventricular hypertrophy, the Finnish stress. They suspect that the lowering effect of androgens on the IGF-1-binding protein 3 concentrations causes the ventricular growth.

Discussion

So far not so good. But there is more. The Finnish discovered something very interesting about the nature of the relationship between anabolic aids and hypertrophy of the heart: it’s direct. For example, the Finnish asked their subjects for how many years they had been using steroids. The answers varied from one to twelve years. Statistically the relationship between lifetime steroid use and the E/A ratio was weak. On the other hand, the mean steroid dose of the present cycle was a strong predictor of variables like E/A ratio, ventricular weight of relative wall thickness.

This means that cycles don’t have a cumulative effect on heart hypertrophy. The Finnish discovered that even the pronounced impact of cycles with added growth hormone wears off. That became evident when they investigated an athlete three times: when he just finished a five weeks cycle of steroids and growth hormone, after a wash out period of 237 days, and just after he completed a steroids only cycle. The results are in the figure below.



Of course a study with twenty users is not conclusive. But the study suggests that

just like the Australians proved before, steroids are not as disastrous for the heart morphology as some agencies want you to believe;
the combination with growth hormone does however add considerable cardiovascular risks to steroid cycles; and
the deleterious effects wear off during wash out periods.
Especially athletes in their late thirties and older should take their wash out periods seriously. The age of the subjects in the Finnish study ranged from 25 to 43. In this population age was the strongest predictor of the E/A ratio. The older they were, the lower their ratio ratio. (The Pearson’s correlation coefficient was –0.70. The coefficient of mean steroid dose and E/A ratio was –0.42.)

Sources

Karila TAM, Karjalainen JE, Mantysaari MJ, Viitasalo MT, Seppala TA. Anabolic Androgenic Steroids Produce Sose-Dependent Increase in Left Ventricular Mass in Power Athletes, and this Effect is Potentiated by Concomitant Use of Growth Hormone. Int J Sports Med 2003; 24: 337-343.

Sader MA, Griffiths KA, McCredie RJ, Handelsman DJ, Celermajer DS. Androgenic anabolic steroids and arterial structure and function in male bodybuilders. J Am Coll Cardiol. 2001 Jan;37(1):224-30.