Sodium Usnate /usnic acid

[bigjim33]

i don't know about everyone else....the above studies/articles plus what people have said and their personal experiences are enough to make me stay away. but even if you say it is fine to take, ect....i don't see how you can deny the possiblility that these things could occur.

[YellowJacket]

Originally posted by bigjim33


Due to the long half-life and excellent bioavailability of oral usnic acid, it's almost inevitable that no matter what's printed on the warning label on the bottle, someone will overdose and really hurt themselves with this chemical.

Hmm.....Too many fat soluble vitamins can kill you. Too much ephedrine can kill you. Too much drinking can kill you. Point being if you over dose on anything it can kill you. LEtm e say first off, Im not saying UA isnt dangerous, or potentially dangerous. Im playing on the ignorant comment that DNP should be recommended over UA. I have plenty of articles that say UA causes liver problems. Let me say secondly before anyone says it or thinks it, I no not sell UA, I have a good friend who does, so be it. He takes care of his own business, I make no profit from it. If I truly felt it could easily kill someone or damage their liver, I would be right there preaching against it. Instead, I stay neutral. I dont promote it (straight UA), and I dont bash it, because like anything else, used correctly its very effective, but if abuses, can cause serious damage to the body. I try to dispell any false information that may be around. I have several articles that say creatine cause cancer (its banned in France because they still think it causes cancer), but that doesnt mean it really does. As for the FDA article posted above, The FDA's opinion isnt of much relevance in a debate on supplementation of various products, as they'll ban anything thats ever killed or harmed anyone (Pro Hormones very soon, ephedrine soon to follow), so their credibility in such an arugment isnt of any interest to me.

In fact, it's readily evident that usnic acid, because it collects in well-perfused organs (heart, liver, kidney, brain, etc.), will most likely manifest symptoms of overdose in these organs. Swell, huh?

Now come on, be fair, if this were really the case, or to the extent they want you to believe, dont you think more people would have died from UA by now? And if so many deaths occur, why is UA still legal? After all, like I said above, the FDA is quick to ban anything that could kill someone, why havent they banned UA? Not enough evidence.

An advertisement for HPDx discloses that the "development team was led by an MD, PhD," yet this person isn't named. I find it highly dubious that this alleged person's name isn't mentioned, and I'm curious to know if the individual alluded to (if he exists at all) is licensed to practice medicine in the United States. Maybe this individual has been debarred and had his license irrevocably yanked. Or maybe he's just smart by staying out of the picture.

Then their must be thousands of people who are 'out of the picture'. Makers, distributors and those who license the sell of it. Apparently they think its safe enough to sell, and I havent seen a death in the news from UA so far, so maybe this guy could use a little lesson in research.

The advertisement also touts the safety of this product in humans, yet an exhaustive literature search by yours truly failed to turn up any published data on the safety of using usnic acid in humans for fat loss. Dan, as Cuba Gooding, Jr. told Tom Cruise in the movie "Jerry Maguire," show me the money!!!

Your's truly? I wont even go into the credibility of T-Mag. Anyone who puts out Mag1- needs a lesson in product development. This is one cheesy guy too.....his need to be cute and funny obviously overshadows his ability to prove a point.

Show me the human trial conducted in accordance with ICH and Declaration of Helsinki guidlelines. Dan, show me where your new "deadly fat-burner" has been clinically demonstrated to be safe and/or effective. Just show me one legit study, Dan!!!

Im not Dan, but I will be posting a couple.

I find this guy has a grudge towards Dan, most of the article is pretty much bullshit directed towards Duchaine.

What if the study participants grow a third nut or something? "Oops, sorry!!!" won't cut it this time.

Ummm, yea. Its a wonder how anyone could truly take this shit seriously when you have a 15 year old talking out his ass.

she was the first person to actively market Duchaine's new death diet pill.

Weak. Probably going to need to site references to such statements, my guess is they dont exist. But hey, at least that part of the 'article' sounded good

But I gave Hominuk the benefit of the doubt and sent her 47 published abstracts from peer-reviewed journals describing how vile usnic acid is.

I certainly would like to see them, my guess is this is another 'added in section'. T-Mag has a history of bullshitting sections of articles to epmhasize a point (I have a few glutamine articles thats this is done also.)

I'm quite confident that Mr. Duchaine and Ms. Hominuk will author a cogent rebuttal to my assertions. In fact, I look forward to it. Nonetheless, there's really no evidence that usnic acid is safe for casual use in humans and quite a bit of evidence that it's possibly incredibly dangerous.

And so far theres no evidence that its harmful, other than opinion. I have some safe evidence, about 50 testimonials of people who used it, good or bad results, they're alive and well, hmm.....

[b][quote] Yeah, you can overdose on these ECA-type thermogens, for sure. But we pretty much know the side effects from ECA-type stuff and can usually treat a case of tachycardia with a beta-blocker like atenolol or propanolol.

Ouch....just like you know 'pretty much' UA is dangerous. Kind of weak. A good article wont use words like "may, could, pretty much, almost sure, etc", this makes it more opinionated than factual.

As for a mitotic spindle inhibitor (like usnic acid), the only people I know who are qualified enough to play with such drugs in humans are medical oncologists. Since I don't have cancer and don't want it, I will, as a prophylactic measure, avoid HPDx and usnic acid.

Gonna have to ask the physiological process in which usnic acid forms elements to form cancer. Doubt he knows.

My prediction is that this chemical will be yanked off the market in Y2K but will probably cause the FDA and the FTC to come down very hard on the entire industry. If this prediction comes true, you can thank Dan Duchaine and Shelley Hominuk for this personally.

Just like 90% of this article, turned out to be false or a bit shady. Maybe he should re-predict, maybe after he does a little research.

I'm truly sorry to bring all of you such bitter and bad tidings the night before Christmas. Please be safe and enjoy your holiday season. See you all in Y2K.

The only thing he truly brought was a rambling attempt to dismiss a product he really doesnt know much about. This article was obviously written before the year 2000 (the prediction that it would be banned in 2K) and my friend, thats 4+ years ago. Thats a lot of time in the medical world and the world of research, Outdated articles arent going to make the cut if you're really wanting to refute a controversial product. I honestly think the product is safe when used in the recommended doseages. You go over that, you're taking your health in your own hands, itso ut of supplement companies in which you purchased it.
The moral of the story is- UA can be dangerous, but to compare it to DNP is laughable. I have several articles, studies on how DNP has caused death and irreversible side effects. I will post them upon request. DNP is illegal for a reason. The DEA is cracking down on it hardcore for a reason. To compare one of the most potentially lethal drugs to a legal fat burner like UA puts a scarlet letter on one's credibility in my opinion.

[YellowJacket]

Unbiased article from a write of a online forum

Supplementing the Extreme!
by Derek Cornelius

Question: I am a competitive cyclist and know several people at my gym who have had great success with a sodium usniate weight loss formulations. Both people have lost over 10 pounds in several weeks. The problem is that I have heard on the Internet that sodium usniate/usnic acid is toxic and deadly. Is there any truth to this or is it just a harmless rumor?

Answer: Well, rumors are rarely harmless. They are usually infested with mistruths and lies that damage the person or thing towards which the rumor is directed. Unfortunately, the situation here is no different! Usnic acid and its derivatives have been ingested as part of the human diet for thousands of years and have been shown in studies to have a myriad of beneficial effects including immunostimulating, anti-bacterial, anti-carcinogenic (anti-cancer), and thermogenic. The only possible negative effect that I have come across in the literature is contact dermatitis associated with using usnic acid as a topical anti-bacterial agent. Amazingly, this has not prevented jealous competitors from outright lying and defaming this groundbreaking compound. Their obvious goal is to scare people away from any competing formula with an usnic acid derivative so that their company will obtain higher sales. Words such as poisonous and toxic are generously used as well as a plethora of cited studies, which they hope people will never read (thus exposing their lies). Let me give you an example of what I am talking about. A particular seedy website recently said that usnic acid was clastogenic and would increase your chances of getting cancer. They cited a particular reference to back up their claim. Is what they say true? If you decide to read this study, you will notice that to achieve clastogenicity, the researchers used dosages nearly 50 times the equivalent dosage that is being sold on the market. To conclude therefore that usnic acid is dangerous is like saying that sodium chloride (table salt) is dangerous because studies have shown that consuming 50 teaspoons per day is harmful to your health—this is ridiculous of course! In contrast, studies clearly show that usnic acid derivatives are potent anti-carcinogenic compounds with a high degree of safety. The worst someone might say about usnic acid is that it might cause allergic reactions in some people.

I know you didn’t ask this question, but in terms of their efficacy, these usnic acid formulations are unsurpassed for their thermogenic properties. I have talked to many people who feel that usnic acid is the by far the most potent weight loss product on the market today.

[bigjim33]

YJ....i am not trying to argue with you bro, just so you know. i am just presenting articles for the opposite side of the good. just so people know there is a possible danger associated with UA, and it is not just a "wonder" drug.

[YellowJacket]

These are LEGIT studies, factual information. They were done in the early 90's, but unlike the info., above, this is concrete. These are actrual cited studies, not some goofballs opinions from 5 years ago


What we know about usnic acid:

Since the rise of usnic acid as a fat loss supplement, many disputes have taken place as to the safety of this product. In fact, it seems the entire elite fitness board and others have labeled usnic acid as more dangerous than DNP. Because of this, I am writing this article in an attempt to shed some light on the factual information we currently have at the moment. First I would like to address the two main studies which have been used as evidence to support that usnic acid is dangerous.


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Study 1:

J Ethnopharmacol 1991 Jul;33(3):217-20 Related Articles, Books,

Mitodepressive, clastogenic and biochemical effects of (+)-usnic acid in mice.

al-Bekairi AM, Qureshi S, Chaudhry MA, Krishna DR, Shah AH.

Experimental Animal Care Centre, College of Pharmacy, King Saud University, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.

Mice were treated orally with aqueous suspensions of (+)-usnic acid in a single dose of either 100 or 200 mg/kg. The effects on femur cells and proteins and on nucleic acids of liver cells were studied 24-72 h after treatment. (+)-Usnic acid was found to affect the proliferation of polychromatic erythrocytes possibly by interference with RNA biosynthesis. The slight increase in the micronucleated polychromatic erythrocytes without affecting DNA synthesis suggests an effect of usnic acid on spindle apparatus.
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This study has caused a lot of debate as far as the extent to which usnic acid is cancerous. In reality, it seems that most people do not understand the results of this study and are blowing the slight clastogenic effects out of proportion.

That article is simply a report of the results of a standard Mouse Micronucleus test. It demonstrates some (slight) degree of clastogenic (chromosome-breaking) activity in laboratory animals. While clastogenicity was demonstrated by the increase in micronucleated (immature) red blood cells in the one mouse micronucleus test to which he referred, UA does not cause point mutations, as shown by the negative Ames test (Ames test screens for point mutations, micronucleus test screens for clastogenicity). Neither test comes close to proving cancer-causing ability, and neither has a THING to do with liver toxicity.

Of the two studies, this is the only one that actual appears to have relevance on the surface. Hopefully based on the above explanation, one will realize that this study is no basis for alarm. If one wants to make a better assessment, they could try sub chronic oral toxicity studies in rats and mice, and a chronic toxicity study in transgenic mice. They're just two of a number of standard toxicology studies that my employer performs, but they're not cheap. However, they will provide better info for carcinogenic potential as well as a good look at any target organ effects.

The second study presented has been poorly represented and explained. As stated earlier, a reputable member of the elite fitness board posted this study. At which time it became a sticky pronouncing the danger of usnic acid. No one came to the defense of usnic acid nor were many questions asked. As a result, we can speculate that the majority of people who read that posted were misinformed about the facts. As a side note, I personally tried to have a logical discussion with elite fitness moderator Mr. X about usnic acid. In an attempt to provide logical discourse, I presented the evidence as best I could. The next day, the thread was closed. In my opinion, this was rather unfortunate as I always believed the purpose of the message boards was to promote discussion. Regardless, here is the 2nd study that was presented on the leading bodybuilding boards. It was titled “Why Usnic Acid causes liver failure/cancer”


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Study 2 WITH ADDITIONAL COMMENTARY BY macrophage69alpha, elite fitness moderator:

“Why usnic acid causes liver failure/cancer...

UA is generally a much weaker uncoupler than DNP.. HOWEVER THERE ARE VERY UNPLEASANT EXCEPTIONS..

This study bodes very ill for the use of usnic acid and the link to liver failure/cancer..

UA requires 1/50 the dose to cause complete halt of oxidative phoshoralation in the liver as compared to DNP...

interesting that the users of LIPO-k have liver failure.”

CITED STUDY:

1: Nat Toxins 1996;4(2):96-102 Related Articles, Links

Lichen acids as uncouplers of oxidative phosphorylation of mouse-liver mitochondria.

Abo-Khatwa AN, al-Robai AA, al-Jawhari DA.

Department of Biochemistry, Faculty of Science, King Abdulaziz University, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.

Three lichen acids-namely, (+)usnic acid, vulpinic acid, and atranorin-were isolated from three lichen species (Usnea articulata, Letharia vulpina, and Parmelia tinctorum, respectively). The effects of these lichen products on mice-liver mitochondrial oxidative functions in various respiratory states and on oxidative phosphorylation were studied polarographically in vitro. The lichen acids exhibited characteristics of the 2,4-dinitrophenol (DNP), a classical uncoupler of oxidative phosphorylation. Thus, they released respiratory control and oligomycin inhibited respiration, hindered ATP synthesis, and enhanced Mg(+2)-ATPase activity. (+)Usnic acid at a concentration of 0.75 microM inhibited ADP/O ratio by 50%, caused maximal stimulation of both state-4 respiration (100%) and ATPase activity (300%). Atranorin was the only lichen acid with no significant effect on ATPase. The uncoupling effect was dose-dependent in all cases. The minimal concentrations required to cause complete uncoupling of oxidative phosphorylation were as follows: (+)usnic acid (1 microM), vulpinic acid, atranorin (5 microM) and DNP (50 microM). It was postulated that the three lichen acids induce uncoupling by acting on the inner mitochondrial membrane through their lipophilic properties and protonophoric activities


“THIS "supplement" is VERY UNSAFE


’Complete shutdown of oxidative phosphoralation causes liver failure, the inhibition even seen with lower doses causes tremendous amounts of free radical damage as well as impairing liver function which in those susceptible MAY lead to early/rapid expression of liver related cancers.’”
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The study posted is valid, but is not relevant by any means. All it says is that Usnic Acid WORKS. It is indeed an uncoupler, and the study cited proves it. Uncouplers can shut down the liver completely if OVERDOSED.

The study cited looks at the concentrations of UA or DNP at the target site (liver mitochondria) which cause complete shutdown of OP. In the study cited, UA did so at 1/50th the concentration of DNP. But to correlate this to dosages taken orally, one has to consider basic issues in absorption and transport to the liver mitochondria. I doubt that DNP and UA are completely identical in such regards. So one could not simply say that you should take 1/50th as much UA as you would DNP for the same degree of biological effect, and of course you couldn't say anything about such effects in any other organ, at least not based on this study. In addition, many consumers take a usnic acid dosage well over a normal DNP dosage and liver failure has not been a concern by any means. This fact alone shows the fallacious nature of this comment.

UA does what it is claimed to do, at least in mice under the conditions of the experiment reported. As with the biological effects of a myriad of other biologically active substances, from certain vitamins to most prescription drugs, at the proper dose it can produce a desired effect and yet in excess, it can prove fatal.


Here is what we know through experience. Some users of UA/SU have reported the following:

1. Rash – Some users develop a rash on usnic acid and sodium usniate. This appears to an allergic reaction to some substance within usnic acid. What we have witnessed is that the rash is mostly present in higher dosages – usually above 750mg. In addition, the rash has subsided in all people who have reported the rash. For some it took a few days, others around 2 weeks to completely subside.

2. Heat and increased sweating – this is the most commonly reported side effect of usnic acid. The heat stops as usage stops and is simply a by-product of the way usnic acid works in your body.

3. Headaches – some people have reported headaches. This could very well be a result of the increased heat and potentially dehydration from increased sweating.

4. Vomiting – 2 or 3 people reported vomiting while taking usnic acid. This tends to be a rare occurrence as far as we know.

5. Elevated enzyme levels – A couple people checked their liver enzyme levels via a blood test and found their levels to be above normal (in one situation, quite high actually). While only a few people have checked their levels, it seems that usnic acid might indeed cause some strain on the liver. Just as 17aa orals are liver toxic and other supplements can raise blood pressure, cause prostate hypertrophy, and other sides, this might be one side effect of usnic acid use. I should point out that it is recommended that usnic acid be cycled (2 weeks at time) to give your liver sufficient recuperation time if it is indeed being strained.

6. Abdominal pain – I have only witnessed this from a few users. This tends to be rare as well.



Comments:

There needs to be an understanding that simply because a product is over the counter, does not mean that it can be abused. Usnic acid is powerful and effective, yet needs to be treated with respect, just like any other supplement you might take. For some reason, people having been making a huge fuss over usnic acid and the truth is that we have yet to see any intelligent arguments made as to why usnic acid is a horrible supplement so long as it is dosed properly. I hope that through the information presented above, one will see that usnic acid has not been shown to be any more “dangerous” than an ECA for example. The interesting thing about products containing ephedra is that according to the FDA, over 800 injuries have been reported by users and doctors to the FDA and various state medical bodies, including more than 50 deaths. Most of these cases involve the heart attacks or high blood pressure leading to bleeding in the brain or stroke.

Does this mean we should stop using ECA’s? In my opinion no. The objective here is not to present evidence against ephedra. In fact, I think it is effective and safe when used correctly. The key phrase in the previous sentence was, “when used correctly”. What I am trying to say is to take caution when using any supplement for it seems to be the trend that for any effective supplement, there will be people with adverse reactions. The same goes for prescription based drugs as well. Next time you view a commercial on TV for a prescription drug, listen to the words at the end that usually state, “side effects include: nausea, dizziness, diarrhea, nose bleed, etc.

Clearly, the side effects witnessed with usnic acid use are not beyond the normal range witnessed with many other effective supplements. In addition, much of the hype and hysteria should now be reduced based on the explanations to the misrepresented studies above. Lastly, I would like to point out that I do not claim to be a doctor, expert, or scientist. I, however, have done the research on the information available of usnic acid and these are the conclusions we can LOGICALLY make at this point in time. I think it is important for people to continue to post their experiences so that more information can be gathered on usnic acid. This information is extremely valuable for the continuation of the learning and education process regarding usnic acid.

If you are interested in using usnic acid, the following advice should help to make your cycle more successful:

1.As stated earlier, usnic acid may put strain on the liver. Using ALA will help if this is a concern to you (Vitamin C, E, and magnesium should help as well).

2.Only run a 2-week cycle. Users have reported a decrease in fat loss after week 2, and if UA does indeed put strain on the liver, it is a good idea to cycle the product.

3.Drink a bunch of water each day. This is a good recommendation no matter what your doing.

[YellowJacket]

Originally posted by bigjim33
YJ....i am not trying to argue with you bro, just so you know. i am just presenting articles for the opposite side of the good. just so people know there is a possible danger associated with UA, and it is not just a "wonder" drug.

Agreed brother, no beef. I love this type of shit man, :p

You have a very valid point, I never will tell anyone UA is harmless, because its not. It puts strain on the liver and has some potential sides as listed above. Would I use it, yes, would I be VERY careful, of course. Would I use DNP? Never again. Its like comparing apples to oranges. But like I said, you make valid points, disappointed in the article, but you know whats up as well as I do, good job.

[bigjim33]

Originally posted by YellowJacket
Agreed brother, no beef. I love this type of shit man, :p

You have a very valid point, I never will tell anyone UA is harmless, because its not. It puts strain on the liver and has some potential sides as listed above. Would I use it, yes, would I be VERY careful, of course. Would I use DNP? Never again. Its like comparing apples to oranges. But like I said, you make valid points, disappointed in the article, but you know whats up as well as I do, good job.

[gearedup]

Fact is if someone abuses the product and they get sick you are responsible!

[YellowJacket]

Originally posted by gearedup
Fact is if someone abuses the product and they get sick you are responsible!

Im not responsible, I dont sell it

But if someone abuses it, takes are the recommended dose, no one is responsible but them. If you abuse it, do things you arent supposed to do with it, no one (legally or morally) is responsible but you. Otherwise there would be no beer companies, NVE would be out of business from ephedrine overdoses.

[whosyourdaddy02]

Most of the studies cited were directly responded to in the article YJ posted starting with "What we know about usnic acid". Make sure that when you are reading this, you are paying close attention to what is being cited and what is not (ie - look at quotes) In the study posted by macrophage, he commented a bit before posting. This was not the commentary of the author, but simply quoted. Either way you cut it, he was wrong in his assumptions, but it is important to pay close attention as to not get confused.

WYD

[bigjim33]

welcome over WYD