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CKD vs TKD & Taurine
Have you ever wondered what the answers are to all the age-old questions that have been asked regarding bodybuilding, supplements and nutrition? Even though WBB has a host of informative bodybuilding forums that provide daily answers to your questions; we’ve decided to assemble some folks who are well versed in one or more of the forum areas and who will attempt to answer those burning questions that keep you wide awake every night.
Nutrition
Q: I've been doing a lot of reading and I was wondering about the difference between a 'TKD' and a 'CKD' diet ? Is one better than the other?
A: Wizard: Ckd vs Tkd
In brief,
Tkd: Targeted ketogenic diet
Ckd: Cyclical ketogenic diet
Ketones:
Ketones are a byproduct of fat metabolism. Most aerobic tissues can oxidize ketones and use them for fuel(1). Under normal blood-sugar conditions, glucose is the preferred fuel in the brain, muscles and heart and the metabolism of ketones is minimal.
The formation and utilization of ketones for fuel depends upon the circulating levels of insulin and glucagon. Glucagon is insulin's antagonistic hormone and is present when insulin levels reach very low levels. Glucagon also aids in the process of lipolysis. To achieve sufficient glucagon concentrations for increased ketonogenesis, insulin must drop to -almost- zero. To achieve these very low insulin levels you must consume less than 30 or even 20 g. of carbohydrates per day. If you perform anaerobic activity, ketonogenesis will occur faster, usually in 2-3 days.
Ketosis:
When ketone concentration in the blood is higher than glucose concentration, ketones will become the preferred fuel. The brain, after 2 weeks or, at the most, 3, will be using ketones exclusively for fuel.
Have I established ketosis?
You can use urine analysis strips,such as ketostix, which can be obtained at a pharmacy. Ketostix measure the presence of ketones in the urine. If the strips darken, you have established ketosis. Another way to establish whether you are in ketosis is the presence of metallic taste in the mouth, a bad taste also know as keto-breathe. Foul-smelling urine is also another signal.
Ratio of protein/fat:
Fats are the most ketogenic item since only 10% can be converted to glucose. Proteins convert to glucose with 58% efficiency. Carbohydrates convert to blood sugar with 100% efficiency. To establish ketosis, a ratio of 1.5 grams or even 2 grams of fat for each gram of protein is suggested.
The good..:
Ketosis, even in the short term, increases the body's ability to utilize fat for fuel. Also, ketones provide much of the body's energy needs and have an anticatabolic action. Ketosis increases fat oxidation during exercise, even if you are a highly-trained athlete.
Remember:
There is a minimum protein requirement which is no less than 50 grams per day.
Main difference between TKD and CKD:
In TKD, small amounts of carbs are used before, during and/or after exercise to provide muscle glycogen. This way, you increase your performance because you replenish the glycogen stores without causing major insulin/blood glucose swings. It is well known that anaerobic activity tends to lower insulin levels. You consume 25-50 grams of carbs about 30-60 minutes before, or immediately after training.
You will return to ketosis a few hours later. Fat intake should be avoided when taking in carbs via the chosen source.
In CKD large amounts of carbohydrates are introduced for short periods. Usually you carb-up on the weekends for anywhere from 12-36 hours. This is like 5 or 6 days of a strict ketogenic diet, followed by 1-2 day(s) of carb-up. Dan Duchaine recommends 16g carbs per kg lbm during the first 24 hours, and 9g/kg lbm the second 24 hours. On the first day, carb calories make up 70% of daily caloric consumption, protein 15% and fat 15%. On the second day, carbs make up 60%, protein 20% and fat 20%.
In both cases:
Start at 10% under caloric maintenance levels or multiply 12*bodyweight (pounds). You can adjust the amount of calories based on the progress you observe. Eat meat, bacon, fish, mayonnaise, heavy cream, cream cheese, hard cheeses (limit their consumprion to small amounts because many contain some carbs) and oils.You can use artificial sweetenersm but not sorbitol. Citric acid kicks some people out of ketosis, so you may have to avoid it. (It’s found in diet sodas). Drink more than 1 gallon of water per day. Avoid alcohol consumption: it won't kick you out of ketosis but it will stop lipolysis (temporarily, of course).
What's the best for me?
If your want to sustain high-intensity exercise, TKD is your best bet.With CKD, you can only have 1-2 good workouts, the day(s) after the carb-up. Then, your workouts will become weak and counter-productive. On the other hand, with the CKD,you enjoy a 1 or 2 day carb feast and your mood is great. Finally, it is obvious that in the TKD you are going to burn some more bodyfat. The choice is yours.
References:
-----------------------
(1) Mark Hargreaves, ed. _Exercise Metabolism_. Champaign, IL: Human Kinetics
1995.
-----------------------
A: Blood&Iron:
Both the TKD (targeted ketogenic diet) and the CKD (cyclical ketogenic diet) are ketogenic diets, meaning one restricts carbohydrate consumption so as to enter a state known as ketosis. In the absence of sufficient dietary carbohydrates the body starts producing ketone bodies from fat. It then uses these as fuel in place of glucose. Now, there are a lot of people who have an almost fanatical devotion to ketogenic diets. These people see ketosis as a magic, fat-burning, muscle-sparing state which has no equal. The literature, however, does not back this up. As Lyle McDonald points out in his definitive book on the subject ‘The Ketogenic Diet': “It is impossible to state unequivocally whether a ketogenic diet will be better or worse in terms of fat loss and protein sparing than a carbohydrate-based diet with a similar calorie level. This is largely due to the paucity of applicable studies done with reasonable calorie levels and adequate protein. In essence, the definitive studies, which would apply to the calorie and protein recommendations being made in this book, have not been done." (3)
Since we can't even say that ketogenic diets are, on the whole, superior to higher-carb approaches, it’s pretty clear we're not going to be able to say which subtype of the ketogenic diet is best. Neither approach is probably going to result in significantly better results than the other. Given the lack of controlled studies on the subject, I think the only real way to compare the two diets is from a performance standpoint, and how tolerable they are--which is going to vary from person to person. As a result, you’ll have to rely on a bit more subjectivity and anecdote in this answer than I might normally allow myself.
First, let’s look at the downsides of the CKD. The biggest problem, I think, is the effect the CKD can have on training intensity. Many people simply find it impossible to have a great training session while in ketosis. This is partially due, of course, to the reduced glycogen stores that result from such a diet, but, perhaps, more importantly, lowering carbohydrate intake can put one in a state of metabolic acidosis which will seriously hamper one's ability to train intensely. (2) When I employed the CKD myself, my training sessions would quickly, and without fail, result in nausea and light-headedness. It was only through the liberal use of stimulants like caffeine and ephedrine that I could get through them at all. Some people feel great while in ketosis, though. They are able to train with sufficient intensity and don’t seem to have any problems.
The second problem I see with the CKD is that most people adapt their training to accommodate their diet. Personally, I think this is one of the cardinal sins of dieting. (One’s diet should support whatever training protocol is being employed, not vice-versa. Of course, this isn’t to say that I think a reduction in volume and/or intensity is not required when on submaintenance calories.) Usually, this means the person is performing several ‘heavy’ sessions (usually an upper-lower split) in the beginning of the week using multiple, high-rep sets, and then a ‘light’, depletion workout towards the end of the week which occurs before the carb-up and is intended to help maximize glycogen storage. I don’t know of anybody who trains in this manner while trying to put on size or gain strength, so, to me that suggests it shouldn’t be used at all. Of course, one doesn't need to follow the guidelines set forth by people like Dan Duchaine and Lyle McDonald. You can use any approach you wish with the CKD; it's just that it will probably be less than optimal.
The last potential problem with the CKD is that the carb-up makes some people feel sluggish, and just generally crappy. These peoples’ bodies have adapted to a lowered carbohydrate intake and suddenly there is a huge influx of carbohydrates to which their bodies are now unaccustomed. Personally, this was never a problem for me; the carb-up was the only period of the CKD during which I felt okay.
Now, let’s look at the TKD. The TKD has a number of advantages over the CKD. First, it is not tied to any specific training protocol and is easily adapted to whatever routine one might currently be using; second, the TKD, rather than relying on a massive carb-up which leaves some individuals sluggish, involves consuming small amounts of carbs prior to, or following, exercise. In contrast to the CKD, it allows one to maintain training intensity.While I’ve mentioned the lack of a carb-up as a positive it is actually, in my opinion, the biggest disadvantage to the TKD. Lately there has been a great deal of interest in a hormone called leptin and the vitally important role it plays in the success (or failure) of one’s diet. This is an immense subject, but let me give at least a brief explanation. Leptin is an anti-starvation hormone, and leptin levels are determined primarily by bodyfat percentage and food intake. When leptin levels fall (as they do at the beginning of a diet) a cascade of negative hormonal effects occur. The results are a greatly increased appetite and a reapportioning of calories toward fat stores. (1) While this would have kept our ancestors alive during times of famine, they are exactly the opposite of what a dieter wants. It is now thought that short term, massive carbohydrate overfeeding (aka the carb-up) will help to reduce this inevitable drop in leptin (4). So, you can understand why the lack of a carb-up in the TKD can be considered a major
disadvantage.
Okay, so I guess I haven’t really answered the question. As you probably now realize, there really isn’t one ‘correct’ answer in this instance. So, I’ll offer my own horribly subjective answer. Actually, rather than favoring the TKD or CKD, I feel a combination of the two is the best approach for most people. Ingesting a moderate amount of carbohydrates before and/or after exercise (as with the TKD) will help to maintain performance. Incorporating regular refeeds (as with the CKD) will help to maintain leptin levels which in turn help maintain fat loss, curb hunger, and help you hold on to precious lean body mass. Combining both approaches means the diet, in most cases, will never put one in ketosis. But then, I never really thought ketogenic diets were that great anyway.
References:
------------------------
1. Jequier E. Leptin signaling, adiposity, and energy balance. Annals of
the New York Academy of Sciences. 967:379-88, 2002 Jun.
2. Maughan RJ. Greenhaff PL. Leiper JB. Ball D. Lambert CP. Gleeson M. Diet
composition and the performance of high-intensity exercise. Journal of
Sports Sciences. 15(3):265-75, 1997 Jun.
3. McDonald L. Volk E (Editor) The Ketogenic Diet: A Complete Guide for the
Dieter and Practitioner.
4. http://www.theministryoffitness.com/.../article18.htm
------------------------
A: Severed Ties:
Both diets are forms of low carbohydrate diets which cause the body to enter ketosis. TKD is a Targeted Ketonic Diet where carbs are “targeted” to only pre- and post-workout. Carbs are restricted to a set number, usually 50 grams which is divided between pre- and post-workout. This is the only carb intake TKD allows for; if you don’t lift you don’t need carbs for extra glycogen. CKD is a Cyclical Ketonic Diet where a person follows a severely restricted carbohydrate intake for around 5 days then has 1 or 2 high carb days, and then cycles back to the carb restriction. Most people follow a CKD by carb-restricting during the week then carb-loading on the weekend. From my experience and of those I worked with I’ve found the TKD to be a far superior diet. The problem with CKD is that carbs are most essential pre- and post-workout; TKD addresses this problem where CKD does not allow for carbs except on carb load days. So most workouts will not have proper recovery or the benefit of the protein-sparing effect carbs have on post-workout. The other problem I’ve noticed with CKD is most trainees will spend 5 days of being very rigid with their diet. Then they use the weekend carb loads to cheat like hell. On a CKD if a trainee has a craving for pizza or ice cream the weekend carb load is when they are allowed to have it, but the fact that the carb load is a strategic part of the diet seems to get thrown out the window. So rather than satisfying the craving and getting a slice or two of pizza the weekend turns into a binge-fest of high carb AND high fat food. Now this certainly isn’t the case with everyone but if a trainee is not getting the desired results from their CKD it’s no stretch of the imagination to say that thei are being too liberal with the carb-ups. I prefer TKD because it addresses both the problems I mentioned; the diet systematically controls binging and addresses the need for carbs around the time of the workout. From my experience I feel 50 grams of carbs is a little too low so I recommend 25 grams pre-workout and 50 grams post-workout. What I like about a TKD is if a trainee is feeling a craving, having some post-workout ice cream (or any other cheat) is the most opportune time to have a cheat meal since more of the calories will go towards recovery and glycogen replacement than fat storage. Also, I’ve noticed that when a trainee knows he is limited to 50 grams of carbs, if he is going to have a cheat meal he is more conscientious in keeping the cheat small and staying within the realms of the diet. On a CKD where there are no real restrictions placed on the carb-up meal, the trainee decides that a whopper with fries would hit the spot.
Have you ever wondered what the answers are to all the age-old questions that have been asked regarding bodybuilding, supplements and nutrition? Even though WBB has a host of informative bodybuilding forums that provide daily answers to your questions; we’ve decided to assemble some folks who are well versed in one or more of the forum areas and who will attempt to answer those burning questions that keep you wide awake every night.
Nutrition
Q: I've been doing a lot of reading and I was wondering about the difference between a 'TKD' and a 'CKD' diet ? Is one better than the other?
A: Wizard: Ckd vs Tkd
In brief,
Tkd: Targeted ketogenic diet
Ckd: Cyclical ketogenic diet
Ketones:
Ketones are a byproduct of fat metabolism. Most aerobic tissues can oxidize ketones and use them for fuel(1). Under normal blood-sugar conditions, glucose is the preferred fuel in the brain, muscles and heart and the metabolism of ketones is minimal.
The formation and utilization of ketones for fuel depends upon the circulating levels of insulin and glucagon. Glucagon is insulin's antagonistic hormone and is present when insulin levels reach very low levels. Glucagon also aids in the process of lipolysis. To achieve sufficient glucagon concentrations for increased ketonogenesis, insulin must drop to -almost- zero. To achieve these very low insulin levels you must consume less than 30 or even 20 g. of carbohydrates per day. If you perform anaerobic activity, ketonogenesis will occur faster, usually in 2-3 days.
Ketosis:
When ketone concentration in the blood is higher than glucose concentration, ketones will become the preferred fuel. The brain, after 2 weeks or, at the most, 3, will be using ketones exclusively for fuel.
Have I established ketosis?
You can use urine analysis strips,such as ketostix, which can be obtained at a pharmacy. Ketostix measure the presence of ketones in the urine. If the strips darken, you have established ketosis. Another way to establish whether you are in ketosis is the presence of metallic taste in the mouth, a bad taste also know as keto-breathe. Foul-smelling urine is also another signal.
Ratio of protein/fat:
Fats are the most ketogenic item since only 10% can be converted to glucose. Proteins convert to glucose with 58% efficiency. Carbohydrates convert to blood sugar with 100% efficiency. To establish ketosis, a ratio of 1.5 grams or even 2 grams of fat for each gram of protein is suggested.
The good..:
Ketosis, even in the short term, increases the body's ability to utilize fat for fuel. Also, ketones provide much of the body's energy needs and have an anticatabolic action. Ketosis increases fat oxidation during exercise, even if you are a highly-trained athlete.
Remember:
There is a minimum protein requirement which is no less than 50 grams per day.
Main difference between TKD and CKD:
In TKD, small amounts of carbs are used before, during and/or after exercise to provide muscle glycogen. This way, you increase your performance because you replenish the glycogen stores without causing major insulin/blood glucose swings. It is well known that anaerobic activity tends to lower insulin levels. You consume 25-50 grams of carbs about 30-60 minutes before, or immediately after training.
You will return to ketosis a few hours later. Fat intake should be avoided when taking in carbs via the chosen source.
In CKD large amounts of carbohydrates are introduced for short periods. Usually you carb-up on the weekends for anywhere from 12-36 hours. This is like 5 or 6 days of a strict ketogenic diet, followed by 1-2 day(s) of carb-up. Dan Duchaine recommends 16g carbs per kg lbm during the first 24 hours, and 9g/kg lbm the second 24 hours. On the first day, carb calories make up 70% of daily caloric consumption, protein 15% and fat 15%. On the second day, carbs make up 60%, protein 20% and fat 20%.
In both cases:
Start at 10% under caloric maintenance levels or multiply 12*bodyweight (pounds). You can adjust the amount of calories based on the progress you observe. Eat meat, bacon, fish, mayonnaise, heavy cream, cream cheese, hard cheeses (limit their consumprion to small amounts because many contain some carbs) and oils.You can use artificial sweetenersm but not sorbitol. Citric acid kicks some people out of ketosis, so you may have to avoid it. (It’s found in diet sodas). Drink more than 1 gallon of water per day. Avoid alcohol consumption: it won't kick you out of ketosis but it will stop lipolysis (temporarily, of course).
What's the best for me?
If your want to sustain high-intensity exercise, TKD is your best bet.With CKD, you can only have 1-2 good workouts, the day(s) after the carb-up. Then, your workouts will become weak and counter-productive. On the other hand, with the CKD,you enjoy a 1 or 2 day carb feast and your mood is great. Finally, it is obvious that in the TKD you are going to burn some more bodyfat. The choice is yours.
References:
-----------------------
(1) Mark Hargreaves, ed. _Exercise Metabolism_. Champaign, IL: Human Kinetics
1995.
-----------------------
A: Blood&Iron:
Both the TKD (targeted ketogenic diet) and the CKD (cyclical ketogenic diet) are ketogenic diets, meaning one restricts carbohydrate consumption so as to enter a state known as ketosis. In the absence of sufficient dietary carbohydrates the body starts producing ketone bodies from fat. It then uses these as fuel in place of glucose. Now, there are a lot of people who have an almost fanatical devotion to ketogenic diets. These people see ketosis as a magic, fat-burning, muscle-sparing state which has no equal. The literature, however, does not back this up. As Lyle McDonald points out in his definitive book on the subject ‘The Ketogenic Diet': “It is impossible to state unequivocally whether a ketogenic diet will be better or worse in terms of fat loss and protein sparing than a carbohydrate-based diet with a similar calorie level. This is largely due to the paucity of applicable studies done with reasonable calorie levels and adequate protein. In essence, the definitive studies, which would apply to the calorie and protein recommendations being made in this book, have not been done." (3)
Since we can't even say that ketogenic diets are, on the whole, superior to higher-carb approaches, it’s pretty clear we're not going to be able to say which subtype of the ketogenic diet is best. Neither approach is probably going to result in significantly better results than the other. Given the lack of controlled studies on the subject, I think the only real way to compare the two diets is from a performance standpoint, and how tolerable they are--which is going to vary from person to person. As a result, you’ll have to rely on a bit more subjectivity and anecdote in this answer than I might normally allow myself.
First, let’s look at the downsides of the CKD. The biggest problem, I think, is the effect the CKD can have on training intensity. Many people simply find it impossible to have a great training session while in ketosis. This is partially due, of course, to the reduced glycogen stores that result from such a diet, but, perhaps, more importantly, lowering carbohydrate intake can put one in a state of metabolic acidosis which will seriously hamper one's ability to train intensely. (2) When I employed the CKD myself, my training sessions would quickly, and without fail, result in nausea and light-headedness. It was only through the liberal use of stimulants like caffeine and ephedrine that I could get through them at all. Some people feel great while in ketosis, though. They are able to train with sufficient intensity and don’t seem to have any problems.
The second problem I see with the CKD is that most people adapt their training to accommodate their diet. Personally, I think this is one of the cardinal sins of dieting. (One’s diet should support whatever training protocol is being employed, not vice-versa. Of course, this isn’t to say that I think a reduction in volume and/or intensity is not required when on submaintenance calories.) Usually, this means the person is performing several ‘heavy’ sessions (usually an upper-lower split) in the beginning of the week using multiple, high-rep sets, and then a ‘light’, depletion workout towards the end of the week which occurs before the carb-up and is intended to help maximize glycogen storage. I don’t know of anybody who trains in this manner while trying to put on size or gain strength, so, to me that suggests it shouldn’t be used at all. Of course, one doesn't need to follow the guidelines set forth by people like Dan Duchaine and Lyle McDonald. You can use any approach you wish with the CKD; it's just that it will probably be less than optimal.
The last potential problem with the CKD is that the carb-up makes some people feel sluggish, and just generally crappy. These peoples’ bodies have adapted to a lowered carbohydrate intake and suddenly there is a huge influx of carbohydrates to which their bodies are now unaccustomed. Personally, this was never a problem for me; the carb-up was the only period of the CKD during which I felt okay.
Now, let’s look at the TKD. The TKD has a number of advantages over the CKD. First, it is not tied to any specific training protocol and is easily adapted to whatever routine one might currently be using; second, the TKD, rather than relying on a massive carb-up which leaves some individuals sluggish, involves consuming small amounts of carbs prior to, or following, exercise. In contrast to the CKD, it allows one to maintain training intensity.While I’ve mentioned the lack of a carb-up as a positive it is actually, in my opinion, the biggest disadvantage to the TKD. Lately there has been a great deal of interest in a hormone called leptin and the vitally important role it plays in the success (or failure) of one’s diet. This is an immense subject, but let me give at least a brief explanation. Leptin is an anti-starvation hormone, and leptin levels are determined primarily by bodyfat percentage and food intake. When leptin levels fall (as they do at the beginning of a diet) a cascade of negative hormonal effects occur. The results are a greatly increased appetite and a reapportioning of calories toward fat stores. (1) While this would have kept our ancestors alive during times of famine, they are exactly the opposite of what a dieter wants. It is now thought that short term, massive carbohydrate overfeeding (aka the carb-up) will help to reduce this inevitable drop in leptin (4). So, you can understand why the lack of a carb-up in the TKD can be considered a major
disadvantage.
Okay, so I guess I haven’t really answered the question. As you probably now realize, there really isn’t one ‘correct’ answer in this instance. So, I’ll offer my own horribly subjective answer. Actually, rather than favoring the TKD or CKD, I feel a combination of the two is the best approach for most people. Ingesting a moderate amount of carbohydrates before and/or after exercise (as with the TKD) will help to maintain performance. Incorporating regular refeeds (as with the CKD) will help to maintain leptin levels which in turn help maintain fat loss, curb hunger, and help you hold on to precious lean body mass. Combining both approaches means the diet, in most cases, will never put one in ketosis. But then, I never really thought ketogenic diets were that great anyway.
References:
------------------------
1. Jequier E. Leptin signaling, adiposity, and energy balance. Annals of
the New York Academy of Sciences. 967:379-88, 2002 Jun.
2. Maughan RJ. Greenhaff PL. Leiper JB. Ball D. Lambert CP. Gleeson M. Diet
composition and the performance of high-intensity exercise. Journal of
Sports Sciences. 15(3):265-75, 1997 Jun.
3. McDonald L. Volk E (Editor) The Ketogenic Diet: A Complete Guide for the
Dieter and Practitioner.
4. http://www.theministryoffitness.com/.../article18.htm
------------------------
A: Severed Ties:
Both diets are forms of low carbohydrate diets which cause the body to enter ketosis. TKD is a Targeted Ketonic Diet where carbs are “targeted” to only pre- and post-workout. Carbs are restricted to a set number, usually 50 grams which is divided between pre- and post-workout. This is the only carb intake TKD allows for; if you don’t lift you don’t need carbs for extra glycogen. CKD is a Cyclical Ketonic Diet where a person follows a severely restricted carbohydrate intake for around 5 days then has 1 or 2 high carb days, and then cycles back to the carb restriction. Most people follow a CKD by carb-restricting during the week then carb-loading on the weekend. From my experience and of those I worked with I’ve found the TKD to be a far superior diet. The problem with CKD is that carbs are most essential pre- and post-workout; TKD addresses this problem where CKD does not allow for carbs except on carb load days. So most workouts will not have proper recovery or the benefit of the protein-sparing effect carbs have on post-workout. The other problem I’ve noticed with CKD is most trainees will spend 5 days of being very rigid with their diet. Then they use the weekend carb loads to cheat like hell. On a CKD if a trainee has a craving for pizza or ice cream the weekend carb load is when they are allowed to have it, but the fact that the carb load is a strategic part of the diet seems to get thrown out the window. So rather than satisfying the craving and getting a slice or two of pizza the weekend turns into a binge-fest of high carb AND high fat food. Now this certainly isn’t the case with everyone but if a trainee is not getting the desired results from their CKD it’s no stretch of the imagination to say that thei are being too liberal with the carb-ups. I prefer TKD because it addresses both the problems I mentioned; the diet systematically controls binging and addresses the need for carbs around the time of the workout. From my experience I feel 50 grams of carbs is a little too low so I recommend 25 grams pre-workout and 50 grams post-workout. What I like about a TKD is if a trainee is feeling a craving, having some post-workout ice cream (or any other cheat) is the most opportune time to have a cheat meal since more of the calories will go towards recovery and glycogen replacement than fat storage. Also, I’ve noticed that when a trainee knows he is limited to 50 grams of carbs, if he is going to have a cheat meal he is more conscientious in keeping the cheat small and staying within the realms of the diet. On a CKD where there are no real restrictions placed on the carb-up meal, the trainee decides that a whopper with fries would hit the spot.
Have you ever wondered what the answers are to all the age-old questions that have been asked regarding bodybuilding, supplements and nutrition? Even though WBB has a host of informative bodybuilding forums that provide daily answers to your questions; we’ve decided to assemble some folks who are well versed in one or more of the forum areas and who will attempt to answer those burning questions that keep you wide awake every night.
Nutrition
Q: I've been doing a lot of reading and I was wondering about the difference between a 'TKD' and a 'CKD' diet ? Is one better than the other?
A: Wizard: Ckd vs Tkd
In brief,
Tkd: Targeted ketogenic diet
Ckd: Cyclical ketogenic diet
Ketones:
Ketones are a byproduct of fat metabolism. Most aerobic tissues can oxidize ketones and use them for fuel(1). Under normal blood-sugar conditions, glucose is the preferred fuel in the brain, muscles and heart and the metabolism of ketones is minimal.
The formation and utilization of ketones for fuel depends upon the circulating levels of insulin and glucagon. Glucagon is insulin's antagonistic hormone and is present when insulin levels reach very low levels. Glucagon also aids in the process of lipolysis. To achieve sufficient glucagon concentrations for increased ketonogenesis, insulin must drop to -almost- zero. To achieve these very low insulin levels you must consume less than 30 or even 20 g. of carbohydrates per day. If you perform anaerobic activity, ketonogenesis will occur faster, usually in 2-3 days.
Ketosis:
When ketone concentration in the blood is higher than glucose concentration, ketones will become the preferred fuel. The brain, after 2 weeks or, at the most, 3, will be using ketones exclusively for fuel.
Have I established ketosis?
You can use urine analysis strips,such as ketostix, which can be obtained at a pharmacy. Ketostix measure the presence of ketones in the urine. If the strips darken, you have established ketosis. Another way to establish whether you are in ketosis is the presence of metallic taste in the mouth, a bad taste also know as keto-breathe. Foul-smelling urine is also another signal.
Ratio of protein/fat:
Fats are the most ketogenic item since only 10% can be converted to glucose. Proteins convert to glucose with 58% efficiency. Carbohydrates convert to blood sugar with 100% efficiency. To establish ketosis, a ratio of 1.5 grams or even 2 grams of fat for each gram of protein is suggested.
The good..:
Ketosis, even in the short term, increases the body's ability to utilize fat for fuel. Also, ketones provide much of the body's energy needs and have an anticatabolic action. Ketosis increases fat oxidation during exercise, even if you are a highly-trained athlete.
Remember:
There is a minimum protein requirement which is no less than 50 grams per day.
Main difference between TKD and CKD:
In TKD, small amounts of carbs are used before, during and/or after exercise to provide muscle glycogen. This way, you increase your performance because you replenish the glycogen stores without causing major insulin/blood glucose swings. It is well known that anaerobic activity tends to lower insulin levels. You consume 25-50 grams of carbs about 30-60 minutes before, or immediately after training.
You will return to ketosis a few hours later. Fat intake should be avoided when taking in carbs via the chosen source.
In CKD large amounts of carbohydrates are introduced for short periods. Usually you carb-up on the weekends for anywhere from 12-36 hours. This is like 5 or 6 days of a strict ketogenic diet, followed by 1-2 day(s) of carb-up. Dan Duchaine recommends 16g carbs per kg lbm during the first 24 hours, and 9g/kg lbm the second 24 hours. On the first day, carb calories make up 70% of daily caloric consumption, protein 15% and fat 15%. On the second day, carbs make up 60%, protein 20% and fat 20%.
In both cases:
Start at 10% under caloric maintenance levels or multiply 12*bodyweight (pounds). You can adjust the amount of calories based on the progress you observe. Eat meat, bacon, fish, mayonnaise, heavy cream, cream cheese, hard cheeses (limit their consumprion to small amounts because many contain some carbs) and oils.You can use artificial sweetenersm but not sorbitol. Citric acid kicks some people out of ketosis, so you may have to avoid it. (It’s found in diet sodas). Drink more than 1 gallon of water per day. Avoid alcohol consumption: it won't kick you out of ketosis but it will stop lipolysis (temporarily, of course).
What's the best for me?
If your want to sustain high-intensity exercise, TKD is your best bet.With CKD, you can only have 1-2 good workouts, the day(s) after the carb-up. Then, your workouts will become weak and counter-productive. On the other hand, with the CKD,you enjoy a 1 or 2 day carb feast and your mood is great. Finally, it is obvious that in the TKD you are going to burn some more bodyfat. The choice is yours.
References:
-----------------------
(1) Mark Hargreaves, ed. _Exercise Metabolism_. Champaign, IL: Human Kinetics
1995.
-----------------------
A: Blood&Iron:
Both the TKD (targeted ketogenic diet) and the CKD (cyclical ketogenic diet) are ketogenic diets, meaning one restricts carbohydrate consumption so as to enter a state known as ketosis. In the absence of sufficient dietary carbohydrates the body starts producing ketone bodies from fat. It then uses these as fuel in place of glucose. Now, there are a lot of people who have an almost fanatical devotion to ketogenic diets. These people see ketosis as a magic, fat-burning, muscle-sparing state which has no equal. The literature, however, does not back this up. As Lyle McDonald points out in his definitive book on the subject ‘The Ketogenic Diet': “It is impossible to state unequivocally whether a ketogenic diet will be better or worse in terms of fat loss and protein sparing than a carbohydrate-based diet with a similar calorie level. This is largely due to the paucity of applicable studies done with reasonable calorie levels and adequate protein. In essence, the definitive studies, which would apply to the calorie and protein recommendations being made in this book, have not been done." (3)
Since we can't even say that ketogenic diets are, on the whole, superior to higher-carb approaches, it’s pretty clear we're not going to be able to say which subtype of the ketogenic diet is best. Neither approach is probably going to result in significantly better results than the other. Given the lack of controlled studies on the subject, I think the only real way to compare the two diets is from a performance standpoint, and how tolerable they are--which is going to vary from person to person. As a result, you’ll have to rely on a bit more subjectivity and anecdote in this answer than I might normally allow myself.
First, let’s look at the downsides of the CKD. The biggest problem, I think, is the effect the CKD can have on training intensity. Many people simply find it impossible to have a great training session while in ketosis. This is partially due, of course, to the reduced glycogen stores that result from such a diet, but, perhaps, more importantly, lowering carbohydrate intake can put one in a state of metabolic acidosis which will seriously hamper one's ability to train intensely. (2) When I employed the CKD myself, my training sessions would quickly, and without fail, result in nausea and light-headedness. It was only through the liberal use of stimulants like caffeine and ephedrine that I could get through them at all. Some people feel great while in ketosis, though. They are able to train with sufficient intensity and don’t seem to have any problems.
The second problem I see with the CKD is that most people adapt their training to accommodate their diet. Personally, I think this is one of the cardinal sins of dieting. (One’s diet should support whatever training protocol is being employed, not vice-versa. Of course, this isn’t to say that I think a reduction in volume and/or intensity is not required when on submaintenance calories.) Usually, this means the person is performing several ‘heavy’ sessions (usually an upper-lower split) in the beginning of the week using multiple, high-rep sets, and then a ‘light’, depletion workout towards the end of the week which occurs before the carb-up and is intended to help maximize glycogen storage. I don’t know of anybody who trains in this manner while trying to put on size or gain strength, so, to me that suggests it shouldn’t be used at all. Of course, one doesn't need to follow the guidelines set forth by people like Dan Duchaine and Lyle McDonald. You can use any approach you wish with the CKD; it's just that it will probably be less than optimal.
The last potential problem with the CKD is that the carb-up makes some people feel sluggish, and just generally crappy. These peoples’ bodies have adapted to a lowered carbohydrate intake and suddenly there is a huge influx of carbohydrates to which their bodies are now unaccustomed. Personally, this was never a problem for me; the carb-up was the only period of the CKD during which I felt okay.
Now, let’s look at the TKD. The TKD has a number of advantages over the CKD. First, it is not tied to any specific training protocol and is easily adapted to whatever routine one might currently be using; second, the TKD, rather than relying on a massive carb-up which leaves some individuals sluggish, involves consuming small amounts of carbs prior to, or following, exercise. In contrast to the CKD, it allows one to maintain training intensity.While I’ve mentioned the lack of a carb-up as a positive it is actually, in my opinion, the biggest disadvantage to the TKD. Lately there has been a great deal of interest in a hormone called leptin and the vitally important role it plays in the success (or failure) of one’s diet. This is an immense subject, but let me give at least a brief explanation. Leptin is an anti-starvation hormone, and leptin levels are determined primarily by bodyfat percentage and food intake. When leptin levels fall (as they do at the beginning of a diet) a cascade of negative hormonal effects occur. The results are a greatly increased appetite and a reapportioning of calories toward fat stores. (1) While this would have kept our ancestors alive during times of famine, they are exactly the opposite of what a dieter wants. It is now thought that short term, massive carbohydrate overfeeding (aka the carb-up) will help to reduce this inevitable drop in leptin (4). So, you can understand why the lack of a carb-up in the TKD can be considered a major
disadvantage.
Okay, so I guess I haven’t really answered the question. As you probably now realize, there really isn’t one ‘correct’ answer in this instance. So, I’ll offer my own horribly subjective answer. Actually, rather than favoring the TKD or CKD, I feel a combination of the two is the best approach for most people. Ingesting a moderate amount of carbohydrates before and/or after exercise (as with the TKD) will help to maintain performance. Incorporating regular refeeds (as with the CKD) will help to maintain leptin levels which in turn help maintain fat loss, curb hunger, and help you hold on to precious lean body mass. Combining both approaches means the diet, in most cases, will never put one in ketosis. But then, I never really thought ketogenic diets were that great anyway.
References:
------------------------
1. Jequier E. Leptin signaling, adiposity, and energy balance. Annals of
the New York Academy of Sciences. 967:379-88, 2002 Jun.
2. Maughan RJ. Greenhaff PL. Leiper JB. Ball D. Lambert CP. Gleeson M. Diet
composition and the performance of high-intensity exercise. Journal of
Sports Sciences. 15(3):265-75, 1997 Jun.
3. McDonald L. Volk E (Editor) The Ketogenic Diet: A Complete Guide for the
Dieter and Practitioner.
4. http://www.theministryoffitness.com/.../article18.htm
------------------------
A: Severed Ties:
Both diets are forms of low carbohydrate diets which cause the body to enter ketosis. TKD is a Targeted Ketonic Diet where carbs are “targeted” to only pre- and post-workout. Carbs are restricted to a set number, usually 50 grams which is divided between pre- and post-workout. This is the only carb intake TKD allows for; if you don’t lift you don’t need carbs for extra glycogen. CKD is a Cyclical Ketonic Diet where a person follows a severely restricted carbohydrate intake for around 5 days then has 1 or 2 high carb days, and then cycles back to the carb restriction. Most people follow a CKD by carb-restricting during the week then carb-loading on the weekend. From my experience and of those I worked with I’ve found the TKD to be a far superior diet. The problem with CKD is that carbs are most essential pre- and post-workout; TKD addresses this problem where CKD does not allow for carbs except on carb load days. So most workouts will not have proper recovery or the benefit of the protein-sparing effect carbs have on post-workout. The other problem I’ve noticed with CKD is most trainees will spend 5 days of being very rigid with their diet. Then they use the weekend carb loads to cheat like hell. On a CKD if a trainee has a craving for pizza or ice cream the weekend carb load is when they are allowed to have it, but the fact that the carb load is a strategic part of the diet seems to get thrown out the window. So rather than satisfying the craving and getting a slice or two of pizza the weekend turns into a binge-fest of high carb AND high fat food. Now this certainly isn’t the case with everyone but if a trainee is not getting the desired results from their CKD it’s no stretch of the imagination to say that thei are being too liberal with the carb-ups. I prefer TKD because it addresses both the problems I mentioned; the diet systematically controls binging and addresses the need for carbs around the time of the workout. From my experience I feel 50 grams of carbs is a little too low so I recommend 25 grams pre-workout and 50 grams post-workout. What I like about a TKD is if a trainee is feeling a craving, having some post-workout ice cream (or any other cheat) is the most opportune time to have a cheat meal since more of the calories will go towards recovery and glycogen replacement than fat storage. Also, I’ve noticed that when a trainee knows he is limited to 50 grams of carbs, if he is going to have a cheat meal he is more conscientious in keeping the cheat small and staying within the realms of the diet. On a CKD where there are no real restrictions placed on the carb-up meal, the trainee decides that a whopper with fries would hit the spot.
Have you ever wondered what the answers are to all the age-old questions that have been asked regarding bodybuilding, supplements and nutrition? Even though WBB has a host of informative bodybuilding forums that provide daily answers to your questions; we’ve decided to assemble some folks who are well versed in one or more of the forum areas and who will attempt to answer those burning questions that keep you wide awake every night.
Nutrition
Q: I've been doing a lot of reading and I was wondering about the difference between a 'TKD' and a 'CKD' diet ? Is one better than the other?
A: Wizard: Ckd vs Tkd
In brief,
Tkd: Targeted ketogenic diet
Ckd: Cyclical ketogenic diet
Ketones:
Ketones are a byproduct of fat metabolism. Most aerobic tissues can oxidize ketones and use them for fuel(1). Under normal blood-sugar conditions, glucose is the preferred fuel in the brain, muscles and heart and the metabolism of ketones is minimal.
The formation and utilization of ketones for fuel depends upon the circulating levels of insulin and glucagon. Glucagon is insulin's antagonistic hormone and is present when insulin levels reach very low levels. Glucagon also aids in the process of lipolysis. To achieve sufficient glucagon concentrations for increased ketonogenesis, insulin must drop to -almost- zero. To achieve these very low insulin levels you must consume less than 30 or even 20 g. of carbohydrates per day. If you perform anaerobic activity, ketonogenesis will occur faster, usually in 2-3 days.
Ketosis:
When ketone concentration in the blood is higher than glucose concentration, ketones will become the preferred fuel. The brain, after 2 weeks or, at the most, 3, will be using ketones exclusively for fuel.
Have I established ketosis?
You can use urine analysis strips,such as ketostix, which can be obtained at a pharmacy. Ketostix measure the presence of ketones in the urine. If the strips darken, you have established ketosis. Another way to establish whether you are in ketosis is the presence of metallic taste in the mouth, a bad taste also know as keto-breathe. Foul-smelling urine is also another signal.
Ratio of protein/fat:
Fats are the most ketogenic item since only 10% can be converted to glucose. Proteins convert to glucose with 58% efficiency. Carbohydrates convert to blood sugar with 100% efficiency. To establish ketosis, a ratio of 1.5 grams or even 2 grams of fat for each gram of protein is suggested.
The good..:
Ketosis, even in the short term, increases the body's ability to utilize fat for fuel. Also, ketones provide much of the body's energy needs and have an anticatabolic action. Ketosis increases fat oxidation during exercise, even if you are a highly-trained athlete.
Remember:
There is a minimum protein requirement which is no less than 50 grams per day.
Main difference between TKD and CKD:
In TKD, small amounts of carbs are used before, during and/or after exercise to provide muscle glycogen. This way, you increase your performance because you replenish the glycogen stores without causing major insulin/blood glucose swings. It is well known that anaerobic activity tends to lower insulin levels. You consume 25-50 grams of carbs about 30-60 minutes before, or immediately after training.
You will return to ketosis a few hours later. Fat intake should be avoided when taking in carbs via the chosen source.
In CKD large amounts of carbohydrates are introduced for short periods. Usually you carb-up on the weekends for anywhere from 12-36 hours. This is like 5 or 6 days of a strict ketogenic diet, followed by 1-2 day(s) of carb-up. Dan Duchaine recommends 16g carbs per kg lbm during the first 24 hours, and 9g/kg lbm the second 24 hours. On the first day, carb calories make up 70% of daily caloric consumption, protein 15% and fat 15%. On the second day, carbs make up 60%, protein 20% and fat 20%.
In both cases:
Start at 10% under caloric maintenance levels or multiply 12*bodyweight (pounds). You can adjust the amount of calories based on the progress you observe. Eat meat, bacon, fish, mayonnaise, heavy cream, cream cheese, hard cheeses (limit their consumprion to small amounts because many contain some carbs) and oils.You can use artificial sweetenersm but not sorbitol. Citric acid kicks some people out of ketosis, so you may have to avoid it. (It’s found in diet sodas). Drink more than 1 gallon of water per day. Avoid alcohol consumption: it won't kick you out of ketosis but it will stop lipolysis (temporarily, of course).
What's the best for me?
If your want to sustain high-intensity exercise, TKD is your best bet.With CKD, you can only have 1-2 good workouts, the day(s) after the carb-up. Then, your workouts will become weak and counter-productive. On the other hand, with the CKD,you enjoy a 1 or 2 day carb feast and your mood is great. Finally, it is obvious that in the TKD you are going to burn some more bodyfat. The choice is yours.
References:
-----------------------
(1) Mark Hargreaves, ed. _Exercise Metabolism_. Champaign, IL: Human Kinetics
1995.
-----------------------
A: Blood&Iron:
Both the TKD (targeted ketogenic diet) and the CKD (cyclical ketogenic diet) are ketogenic diets, meaning one restricts carbohydrate consumption so as to enter a state known as ketosis. In the absence of sufficient dietary carbohydrates the body starts producing ketone bodies from fat. It then uses these as fuel in place of glucose. Now, there are a lot of people who have an almost fanatical devotion to ketogenic diets. These people see ketosis as a magic, fat-burning, muscle-sparing state which has no equal. The literature, however, does not back this up. As Lyle McDonald points out in his definitive book on the subject ‘The Ketogenic Diet': “It is impossible to state unequivocally whether a ketogenic diet will be better or worse in terms of fat loss and protein sparing than a carbohydrate-based diet with a similar calorie level. This is largely due to the paucity of applicable studies done with reasonable calorie levels and adequate protein. In essence, the definitive studies, which would apply to the calorie and protein recommendations being made in this book, have not been done." (3)
Since we can't even say that ketogenic diets are, on the whole, superior to higher-carb approaches, it’s pretty clear we're not going to be able to say which subtype of the ketogenic diet is best. Neither approach is probably going to result in significantly better results than the other. Given the lack of controlled studies on the subject, I think the only real way to compare the two diets is from a performance standpoint, and how tolerable they are--which is going to vary from person to person. As a result, you’ll have to rely on a bit more subjectivity and anecdote in this answer than I might normally allow myself.
First, let’s look at the downsides of the CKD. The biggest problem, I think, is the effect the CKD can have on training intensity. Many people simply find it impossible to have a great training session while in ketosis. This is partially due, of course, to the reduced glycogen stores that result from such a diet, but, perhaps, more importantly, lowering carbohydrate intake can put one in a state of metabolic acidosis which will seriously hamper one's ability to train intensely. (2) When I employed the CKD myself, my training sessions would quickly, and without fail, result in nausea and light-headedness. It was only through the liberal use of stimulants like caffeine and ephedrine that I could get through them at all. Some people feel great while in ketosis, though. They are able to train with sufficient intensity and don’t seem to have any problems.
The second problem I see with the CKD is that most people adapt their training to accommodate their diet. Personally, I think this is one of the cardinal sins of dieting. (One’s diet should support whatever training protocol is being employed, not vice-versa. Of course, this isn’t to say that I think a reduction in volume and/or intensity is not required when on submaintenance calories.) Usually, this means the person is performing several ‘heavy’ sessions (usually an upper-lower split) in the beginning of the week using multiple, high-rep sets, and then a ‘light’, depletion workout towards the end of the week which occurs before the carb-up and is intended to help maximize glycogen storage. I don’t know of anybody who trains in this manner while trying to put on size or gain strength, so, to me that suggests it shouldn’t be used at all. Of course, one doesn't need to follow the guidelines set forth by people like Dan Duchaine and Lyle McDonald. You can use any approach you wish with the CKD; it's just that it will probably be less than optimal.
The last potential problem with the CKD is that the carb-up makes some people feel sluggish, and just generally crappy. These peoples’ bodies have adapted to a lowered carbohydrate intake and suddenly there is a huge influx of carbohydrates to which their bodies are now unaccustomed. Personally, this was never a problem for me; the carb-up was the only period of the CKD during which I felt okay.
Now, let’s look at the TKD. The TKD has a number of advantages over the CKD. First, it is not tied to any specific training protocol and is easily adapted to whatever routine one might currently be using; second, the TKD, rather than relying on a massive carb-up which leaves some individuals sluggish, involves consuming small amounts of carbs prior to, or following, exercise. In contrast to the CKD, it allows one to maintain training intensity.While I’ve mentioned the lack of a carb-up as a positive it is actually, in my opinion, the biggest disadvantage to the TKD. Lately there has been a great deal of interest in a hormone called leptin and the vitally important role it plays in the success (or failure) of one’s diet. This is an immense subject, but let me give at least a brief explanation. Leptin is an anti-starvation hormone, and leptin levels are determined primarily by bodyfat percentage and food intake. When leptin levels fall (as they do at the beginning of a diet) a cascade of negative hormonal effects occur. The results are a greatly increased appetite and a reapportioning of calories toward fat stores. (1) While this would have kept our ancestors alive during times of famine, they are exactly the opposite of what a dieter wants. It is now thought that short term, massive carbohydrate overfeeding (aka the carb-up) will help to reduce this inevitable drop in leptin (4). So, you can understand why the lack of a carb-up in the TKD can be considered a major
disadvantage.
Okay, so I guess I haven’t really answered the question. As you probably now realize, there really isn’t one ‘correct’ answer in this instance. So, I’ll offer my own horribly subjective answer. Actually, rather than favoring the TKD or CKD, I feel a combination of the two is the best approach for most people. Ingesting a moderate amount of carbohydrates before and/or after exercise (as with the TKD) will help to maintain performance. Incorporating regular refeeds (as with the CKD) will help to maintain leptin levels which in turn help maintain fat loss, curb hunger, and help you hold on to precious lean body mass. Combining both approaches means the diet, in most cases, will never put one in ketosis. But then, I never really thought ketogenic diets were that great anyway.
References:
------------------------
1. Jequier E. Leptin signaling, adiposity, and energy balance. Annals of
the New York Academy of Sciences. 967:379-88, 2002 Jun.
2. Maughan RJ. Greenhaff PL. Leiper JB. Ball D. Lambert CP. Gleeson M. Diet
composition and the performance of high-intensity exercise. Journal of
Sports Sciences. 15(3):265-75, 1997 Jun.
3. McDonald L. Volk E (Editor) The Ketogenic Diet: A Complete Guide for the
Dieter and Practitioner.
4. http://www.theministryoffitness.com/.../article18.htm
------------------------
A: Severed Ties:
Both diets are forms of low carbohydrate diets which cause the body to enter ketosis. TKD is a Targeted Ketonic Diet where carbs are “targeted” to only pre- and post-workout. Carbs are restricted to a set number, usually 50 grams which is divided between pre- and post-workout. This is the only carb intake TKD allows for; if you don’t lift you don’t need carbs for extra glycogen. CKD is a Cyclical Ketonic Diet where a person follows a severely restricted carbohydrate intake for around 5 days then has 1 or 2 high carb days, and then cycles back to the carb restriction. Most people follow a CKD by carb-restricting during the week then carb-loading on the weekend. From my experience and of those I worked with I’ve found the TKD to be a far superior diet. The problem with CKD is that carbs are most essential pre- and post-workout; TKD addresses this problem where CKD does not allow for carbs except on carb load days. So most workouts will not have proper recovery or the benefit of the protein-sparing effect carbs have on post-workout. The other problem I’ve noticed with CKD is most trainees will spend 5 days of being very rigid with their diet. Then they use the weekend carb loads to cheat like hell. On a CKD if a trainee has a craving for pizza or ice cream the weekend carb load is when they are allowed to have it, but the fact that the carb load is a strategic part of the diet seems to get thrown out the window. So rather than satisfying the craving and getting a slice or two of pizza the weekend turns into a binge-fest of high carb AND high fat food. Now this certainly isn’t the case with everyone but if a trainee is not getting the desired results from their CKD it’s no stretch of the imagination to say that thei are being too liberal with the carb-ups. I prefer TKD because it addresses both the problems I mentioned; the diet systematically controls binging and addresses the need for carbs around the time of the workout. From my experience I feel 50 grams of carbs is a little too low so I recommend 25 grams pre-workout and 50 grams post-workout. What I like about a TKD is if a trainee is feeling a craving, having some post-workout ice cream (or any other cheat) is the most opportune time to have a cheat meal since more of the calories will go towards recovery and glycogen replacement than fat storage. Also, I’ve noticed that when a trainee knows he is limited to 50 grams of carbs, if he is going to have a cheat meal he is more conscientious in keeping the cheat small and staying within the realms of the diet. On a CKD where there are no real restrictions placed on the carb-up meal, the trainee decides that a whopper with fries would hit the spot.
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