BRIDGING with winny.....

[6p6]

well lets all increase the demand so the supply goes up therefored driving the price down....basic economics aye!

[Maxhardc]

EPO YIKES:

EPO is old stuff - used by Olympic long distance runners in the 60's.

Now magazines are peddling info out there about it...

Clearly - it serves NO USE in bodybuilding.. no gain... nothing.. forget it. It increases the number of rbc's - no anaerobic benefit with that... It should be noted that GH and testosterone also increase RBC's along with WBC's and muscle mass...

EPO is just another old fad coming round again..

Magazines that have nothing else to write about have reincarnated this old story for lack of a better...

Max

[Maxhardc]

EPO is a hormone made in the kidneys (erythropoietin). In the usa Amgen Inc manufactures it and Orto Biotech Inc distributes it under the name of Procrit. Together with adequate amounts of iron, B-12 and folic acid, you get rbc's.

Every time I go to an HIV conference, I see their booth - and swipe a bunch of free goodies. However, I would never use it with my patients.... I don't know anyone that does.. I guess someone must.

With HIV, the distributor claims it helps with their anemia and resulting fatigue. Technically, they are right. However, steroids do that plus much much more...

If you bother to read their literature, they ramble about how AZT (retrovir or zidovudine) suppresses bone marrows ability to produce red blood cells and such...

AZT? What the?! No one has used that in ten years at least! Everyone knows that AZT makes HIV patients sicker!

For HIV we give cocktails (HAART) of non-nucleoside reverse transcriptase inhibitors such as nevirapine or delavirdine mesylate; nucleoside analogs such as lamivudine, stavudine, zalcitabine, avacavir or, didanosine; and, protease inhibitors such as indinavir, saquinavir, nelfinavir, or, ritonavir.

Several new therapies have come out now such as fusion inhibitors, (tri003, t-1249, etc).

What I'm saying here is that EPO is really old news.... It's an old fad brought back to life by the US distributor, their pretty conference marketing reps, and magazines who have nothing fresh to talk about.

I don't understand how but, the name has returned like bell-bottom pants, lava lamps, and the Monkey's tour this summer.

For procrit, you dose and monitor hemoglobin levels. Normal is about 14 g/dL for men. [Normal hematocrit is 42 – 54% in males].

If these values are higher than normal, (polycythemia), and you are a body builder type, your physician will very likely realize it is the result of anabolic steroids or recombinant erythropoietin.

Stroke or other thrombotic events are frequently seen in polycythemia. Moreover, it’s likely that the physician would consider phlebotomy (followed by administration of hydroxyurea) to reduce your hematocrit back down to about 45% in an effort to reduce your risk of thrombosis, (killer blood clots). This treatment is not without risks as it often leads to thrombocytosis, (dangerous increase in blood platelets – thus, the use of hydroxyurea in select patients).

Hemorrhage is also a possible complication… You get a significant cut or internal bleeding, you could have some severe (deadly) complications (Andre Munzer – sp?).

The difference in the hematocrit between men and women is the result of a positive effect of testosterone on erythropoietin formation and hence on erythropoiesis. Castration often leads to anemia.

Sometimes long term administration of androgens in women, (such as in carcinoma of the breast), leads to polycythemia, (see previous submittal).

The average increase in hemoglobin is about 10g/L (1g/dL) in normal men who are given pharmacological doses of testosterone esters (1).

As a result, testosterones have been used to treat refractory anemia. This capacity to stimulate erythropoiesis is shared really by all androgens. Sometimes the increases in hemoglobin level can be dramatic (2).

Most studies that pulled on medline showed that anabolic steroid therapy resulted in increases in hemoglobin levels (10 to 50g/L - 1 to 5 g/dL) and in red blood cell volume (325 to 350 mL). Because this could lead to side effects standard treatment protocol is to discontinue therapy after 3 months.

In summary, testosterone will produce increases in hematocrit comperable to EPO, as well as exhibiting other documented benefits. It is this authors view that in light of this, EPO is of little value as an anaerobic ergogenic therapeutic agent.

1) Cunningham GR, Silverman VE, et al. The potential for an androgen male contraceptive. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1979; 49:520-526

2) Hengstum V, Steenbergen J, Haanen C. Clinical course in 28 unselected patients with aplastic anaemia treated with anabolic steroids. Br J Haematol 1979; 41:323-333

Najean Y. Long term follow up in patients with aplastic anemia. A study of 137 androgen-treated patients surviving more than two years. Am J Med 1981; 71:543-551.

Max

[Drenten]

Somehow, I think you misunderstood my post.

Thiomesterone is not EPO. Thiomesterone is an anabolic steroid.

It just so happens that it works really well in conjunction with EPO. Add to this the fact that although Thiomesterone is on many banned substance lists, no one has ever tested positive for it (at least not as far as I know), and you can understand why drug tested athletes would be attracted to it. Especially if you are an endurance athlete that wants added strength and endurance without added size.