Clomid, the big lie?

[Mudge]

You guys want some more confusion? :2gunsfiri

Recharging the Boys

Q: Should a steroid user "load" Clomid? I've heard mixed opinions. What about other anti-estrogen drugs?

A: It really depends on the situation. If you're experiencing symptoms of gynecomastia and need to achieve a high blood concentration of the drug quickly, then yes, you should use large dosages over a short period of time. If you simply wish to restore yourself to a eugonadal state, I don't think it's as important to "load." However, I'd really like people to use the following protocol based on what little info we have concerning the restoration of the HPTA.

Essentially, you need to use 100 mg/day of clomiphene (50 mg, twice daily) for at least 2 months. This protocol is based on both anecdotal evidence as well as a few case reports.

One recent case report involved the reversal of a hypogonadal state in a man who'd previously used nandrolone decanoate, stanozolol, and methenolone for several months. The man complained of common hypogonadal symptoms (i.e., loss of libido, fatigue, depression, etc.) and upon investigation his total and free Testosterone levels were 71 ng/dl and 29 pg/ml respectively. (The reference ranges were 260-1000 ng/dl and 34-194 pg/ml, by the way.)

He was then given 100 mg of clomiphene for 5 days and reevaluated 2 weeks later. He reported an improvement in mood, energy, and libido and his total Testosterone was 828 ng/dl. However, after a follow up 2 months later, his symptoms had returned and his total Testosterone concentration was 301 ng/dl. In other words, he suffered a relapse.

They then gave the man 100 mg per day for 2 months and then reevaluated his blood work. They found his total Testosterone was 705 ng/dl and no relapse occurred in subsequent blood work. A similar case reported restoration of the HPTA using the same dosage of clomiphene over a 5 month period.

Anecdotally, I receive many letters from people explaining that they were feeling great when using clomiphene the first 2-4 weeks after their cycle, but seemed to suffer dramatic drops in terms of body composition, mood, energy levels, etc, thereafter.

My guess is that we've been underestimating the amount of time it takes to recover, even when using compounds like clomiphene. Granted, this probably can't be applied across the board as we have to take in many individual factors including what particular androgens the person was using, dosages, length of time, etc., but extended use of the drug seems to be the way to go. (1-2)

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Can T levels be restored in former anabolic steroid users?

The Study: Two hypogonadal former anabolic steroid users were studied. Normal levels of LH are >3.6 IU/L and Testosterone are 300—1000 ng/dl. Former anabolic steroid users often have suppressed levels of both.

The Results: Subject #1 is a 6', 206lb former user of 500—2000+ grams per week of anabolics. His baseline numbers were: LH<1IU/L, Test=191ng/dl. This suject underwent a 32 day treatment of 2500 IU of HCG every 4 days, 50 mg of clomid 2 times per day, and 10 mg nolvadex per day. 15 days after treatment his numbers were: LH=5.2IU/L, Test=1072 ng/dl.

Subject #2 is a 5'10", 184lb male who used 400 mg per week of nandrolone. His baseline numbers were: LH<1IU/L, Test=45ng/dl. This subject's 32 day treatment consisted of 2500 IU of HCG every 4 days, 50 mg of clomid 2 times per day, and 10 mg nolvadex per day. There was no change. He underwent another treatment consisting of 60 days of 5000 IU of HCG every 4 days for 4 injections, then 2500 IU every 4 days for 4 injections, 50 mg of clomid 2 times per day, and 10 mg nolvadex per day. Still, no change. For the next 32 days, this subject received 5000 IU of HCG every other day for 6 injections, then 2500 IU every other day for 6 injections given with 150 IU of menotropins, 50 mg of clomid 2 times per day, and 10 mg nolvadex 2 times per day. 15 days after treatment his numbers were: LH=9.8IU/L, Test=507 ng/dl.(20)

Comments: The authors of this paper have presented some very interesting data that the medical community needs to learn from. When dealing with former androgen users, there may be better ways to increase Testosterone than the standard patch treatment (which will only prolong the problem of decreased T production.) Hypogonadal former androgen users need a treatment, not a band-aid. If you need to jump start your Testosterone after an androgen cycle, this combination of HCG, Clomid, and Nolvadex may be just what the doctor ordered. Now, trying to get him to order it is another story!

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Bodybuilders and Breeding

I've got a question which has probably crossed the minds of many guys who've used steroids at one time or another. Will the use of steroids, say, two or three eight-week cycles a year, destroy a man's ability to father children?

Depends on exactly where you're injecting, studboy. Okay, honestly, this is a common question with no really easy answer. The best response that I can give is "yes and no." It would depend on a lot of things, such as how much "drug" you were taking, whether you used Clomid or other anti-aromatics, and how many years you were doing this. In general (and this is very vague), the longer you do this and the bigger the doses you use, the more likely you are to decrease your chance of spawning little tricycle engines.

Additionally, many guys experience "transitional infertility" post-cycle. In other words, it may take 4-16 weeks to become normopotent after a cycle. If you're infertile secondary to AAS use, discuss this with your physician and see if he'll prescribe some Clomid or HCG to increase your sperm count. There's quite a bit of data in peer-reviewed journals to support the use of these drugs in this situation.

[Mudge]

One thing I NEVER understood, if we are supposed to do time on = time off, then why are we considering 2-4 weeks of Clomid sufficient to recouperate???

[CubanJuice]

I think this time around I'll extend the 100 clomid part of the plan to 3wks then 50 for 3 more.... I'm one of those who takes longer to recover...

[PIT]

Since we're all talking about clomid.

By Iron Game



Clomid: Frequently Asked Questions

Something I put together that may help some of the new comers out there as well as some of the more experienced.

Question: What is Clomid?

Answer: Clomid is a synthetic estrogen and is generally prescribed by doctors to trigger ovulation in females.

Question: Why Should Bodybuilders use Clomid?

Answer: Almost all anabolic androgenic steroids will cause an inhibition of the bodies own testosterone production. When he comes off the steroids he has no natural test production and no more steroids. The body is left in a state of catabolism (catabolic hormones are high and anabolic hormones are low) and as a result much of the muscle tissue that was gained on the cycle is now going to be lost. Clomid stimulates the hypophysis to release more gonadotropin so that a faster and higher release of follicle stimulating hormone aud luteinizing hormone occurs. This results in an increase of the body's own testosterone production.

Question: Does Clomid also work as an anti estrogen?

Answer: Clomid is a synthetic estrogen, however it does also work as an anti-estrogen. How does it work? Because it is a weak synthetic estrogen, it will bind to the estrogen receptor (ER) and not cause any problems. At the same time the increase in estrogen from steroids are blocked from attaching to the ER.

Question: How effective is Clomid as an anti-estrogen?

Answer: It is very weak and should not be relied upon if you are going to be using steroids that aromatise at any rapid rate, or if you are pre disposed to gyno. Arimidex, Proviron and Nolvadex will all make better choices for this purpose.

Question: Some say Clomid during a cycle is a waste, is this true?

Answer: Lets first examine what happens when someone is using anabaolic androgenic steroids. When the level of androgens in the body get too high, the androgen receptor becomes more highly activated, and the hypothalamus stops sending a signal to the pituitary. In short the signal tells our body to stop producing testosterone. During a cycle the body has higher levels than normal of androgens and as long as this level is high enough clomid will not help to keep natural test production up. It will be almost all but completely shut off. The only purpose of clomid during a cycle is as an anti-estrogen.

Question: When do I start Clomid? Some say 2 weeks others 3.

Answer: When you start using your clomid all depends on what steroids you were using during your cycle. Different steroids have different half lifes and you should adjust your clomid intake accordingly. As we have seen above, if we take clomid when the androgen levels in our body is still high it will be a waste. We need to wait for androgen levels to fall before implementing our clomid therapy. However if we take it too late we could possibly lose gains. Look at the list below to determine when you should start clomid therapy. By selecting from the list all the steroids you used in your cycle and which ever one has the latest starting point then go with that. For example if I cycled dbol, sustanon and winstrol I would use sustanon as it remains active in the body for the longest period of time.

Anadrol/Anapolan: 8 - 12 hours after last administration
Deca: 3 weeks after last injection and clomid for 4 weeks
Dianabol: 4 – 8 hours after last administration
Equipoise: 17 – 21 days after last injection
Fina: 3 days after last injection
Primobolan depot: 10 – 14 days after last injection
Sustanon: 3 weeks after last injection
Testosterone Cypionate: 2 weeks after last injection
Testosterone Enanthate: 2 weeks after last injection
Testosterone Propionate: 3 days after last injection
Testosterone Suspension: 4 – 8 hours after last administration
Winstrol: 8 – 12 hours after last administration

Question: What is the most effective way for Clomid therapy.

Answer: Clomid has a long half life and as such there is no need to split up doses throughout the day. I read some where that it was 5 days (any feedback on this). Now if we used sustanon and we start using clomid 3 weeks after our last injection we anticipate that androgen levels are low enough to start sending the correct signals. If androgen levels are still a little high then the normal 50mgs/day of clomid for 1 week is not going to be effective. We need to start at a high enough amount that will work or help even if androgen levels are still a little high. 300mgs on day 1. I know I said don’t split it up due to its long half life but try and split this up 2 tabs 3 times a day. After we have finished this first day we seek to use 100mgs for 10 days and then followed by 50mgs for 10 days.

Question: Do I need to use Clomid for 3 weeks?

Answer: Why don’t you want too? It is very cheap, very effective and can mean the difference between maintaining gains and losing them.

Question: How cheap is Clomid?

Answer: Clomid normally comes in 50mg tablets but also comes in capsule form of 25mgs. A 50mg tablet can be anywhere between 25 cents and $2.50. (15 pence and 75 pence in England).

Question: Do all steroids cause shut down of the hpta.

Answer: Not all steroids do. Everyone is different and you must also take into account how long you have been using a certain steroid and at what dose in order to determine if you need clomid or not. However as the price is so cheap, why risk not using it.

JohnnyB

[addict]

This thread sucks ass !!

Now im even more confused about Clomid

every article you read is different depending on the person who wrote it

non-user = negitive
first time user = negitive because they probably did it wrong
user = positive

:S what to do

[CubanJuice]

Go by your own experiences!

[Maxhardc]

As I posted on Animals Board:

Step one is to review how the body regulates the production of testosterone.

When the brain detects low levels of testosterone, low levels of GnRH, low levels of LH, the brain, (hypothalamus) will release GnRH which will then stimulate the release of LH from the ant. pituitary gland in the sella tursica of the skull, and this LH will then stimulate the production of testosterone in the balls. There are of course, several other ways the body regulates testosterone in the body, such as its production of TeBG - and one should consider them in their over all strategy]

The brain, (hypothalamus), also monitors estrogen and progesterone levels in body. High levels will inhibit the production of GnRH to LH to Testosterone. With this in mind, a good strategy would be to PREVENT the formation estrogens during HRT in the first place.

Now as you well know, Clomid works by 'competing' with estrogen at various receptors in the body. Although it won't prevent the 'formation' of estrogens, it will block allot of estrogen receptors, including those at the breast and brain (hypothalamus). With less estrogen able to reach the hypothalamus of the brain, (as clomid is blocking it), the brain responds by producing more GnRH, and then LH, and finally, testosterone.

Academically speaking, the brain (hypothalamus) doesn't begin to 'think' about recovery until after it detects low GnRH, LH, and Testosterone. Clomid will artificially 'fool' the hypothalamus into thinking 'everything is alright' And so one can argue that true recovery cannot begin until after the clomid is discontinued.

Realistically however, there are several good arguments to suggest that 'in the long run', clomid will attribute to a faster recovery. At least by virtue of its ability to compete with post cycle estrogen accumulation! And clomid usage will stimulate hypophysiotrophic neurons in the hypothalamus of the brain to release GnRH along its peptidergic pathways leading to the pituitary gland....which in turn will release LH, and thereby stimulate the production of testosterone.

Clinically, timing is the key to the successful application of clomid in this strategy. There are many things that will affect the timing in such a strategy, none the least of which is that the continuous release of GnRH will ultimately suppress the production of testosterone!

Within hours of continuous GnRH release, the pituitary gland will begin to stop releasing LH. And naturally the production of testosterone will stop as well. With the continuous release of GnRH, such as sponsored by clomid usage, you will see that by about the 5th day, plasma LH levels will fall well under 5 ng/ml.

On the other hand, the pulsatile release of GnRH would stimulate a consistent release of LH, and ultimately testosterone.

So you can see there are allot of things to consider in attempting to use clomid to achieve the constant release of LH, and testosterone. Such as striving to stimulate the production of GnRH intermittently, like once every 90 minutes. But how can you do that considering the pharmacokinetics of clomid, (and nolvadex), as it takes about 5 days just to excrete half of the ingested dose!

Im going to end the story abruptly here, and give you time to consider this material. Besides, PT Barnum taught us that any PR is good PR! I want the scandal to continue bending the minds of many into deep thought!

Max

[superchicken]

im sure this guy knows lots about lots, but he doesnt really know what hes talking about in this clomid article. its extrememly biased and loaded with misinformation, and careless oversight. he states that clomid is supposed to occupy the receptors and thus the body will produce less estrogen. he has no clue how clomid really works i guess. clomid will make the body produce more estrogen, because it will produce more testosterone in an effort so the test will aromatize to estrogen. the clomid simply binds to the receptors and occupies them. im not gonna go into it but im sure many on this board know how clomid really works, i dont need to explain it

this guy needs to stop writing, hes in a place of high status and spreading misinformation, and thousands are prob reading it thinking its gospel, when they are learning false information.

[Maxhardc]

No matter how you slice it up, at the end of an anabolic treatment cycle, the CNS, (central nervous system), or brain, has to perceive that its time to recover and then initiate the production of its own testosterone.

Anything that gets in there to fool the brain into thinking you are fine, (i.e., the brain thinks that it has enough gonadotropin stimulation), is only acting to DELAY the eventual need to "go empty", and then start the process of self-recovery.

Moreover, I would submit that both proviron and clomid don't address the excessive production of estrogen and inhibin during the cycle - and whatever the mechanism for temporary GnRH stimulation, it is artificial, serving only to delay the eventual recovery of endogenous testosterone production.

At some point the CNS will have to figure all this out on its own and begin to recover.

Although it might seem like a good idea in the books, (to taper with those drugs), my clinical experience with patients has shown results contrary to the idea. Ultimately it delayed recovery in patients as measured in how much post cycle time it took before they produced enough testosterone on their own to venture into another safe cycle. In short, it just slowed down the ability get onto another cycle. And the sooner you can get on another cycle, the quicker you can make gains again.

The only credible ways to speed up recovery time is to PREVENT the accumulation/formation of estrogens, progesterones and TeBG (testosterone binding globulin) DURING the cycle.

After the cycle, additional measures can be used to help recovery which include: lowering TeBG; stimulating testosterone sensitivity at the cells; and stimulating maximal OVERALL function of all CNS nerve tissue by the use of nootropics. [Nootropics will enhance CNS brain tissue performance thereby maximizing response/recovery upon its self-perception of post cycle endogenous testosterone production depletion.]

Clomid, nolvadex, and proviron have some additional issues that may be detrimental to the body. I will be looking into this over the course of this week.

Its true that these meds are defacto gonadotropin stimulants... But you really have to consider the big picture along with it - Like whether they will inhibit androgen synthesis or sensitivity secondarily to gonadotropin stimulation; and whether it ultimately delays recovery following a cycle; and so on. Some of these drugs, such as clomid have even been shown in some studies to initiate estrogen rebound following the cessation of their use.

Max

[Maxhardc]

Super chicken, You have to keep an open mind to evolve here...

So who was it that told us that nolvadex blocked estrogen at the breast tissue (only), and that clomid did that AND stimulated the gonadotropin production...?

As far as I can tell, this all started with an old issue of a muscle mag (which will remain nameless - But I think we all know which one).

That is what initiated all the confusion - some magazine article!

I think its important to consider the source of information - I mean since when is it appropriate to rely on a gym rag for medical information? I just don't get it?

Then again, its kinda sad to think allot of people have no other source of information! Their doctors either don't know or don't tell them.

Hopefully with this forum, I can dispel some of the disinformation peddled by magazines making a buck and never caring to edit or verify their material with any remnant of quality control.

All in all, take pride in personal objectivity and skepticism. Nolvadex and clomid are really just about the same.

Max

[woody01]

well,i guess thats that!if you were not confused before,i'm sure many of you r now.lol.
some one said it differs from person to person.i totally agree.there are a set of rules to what to take post,it is up to each of us to find out what works best for our body(i.e.clomid,provion,nolvdx,slin,clen,hcg,hgh,i gf-1,ect.)although i'm not convinced igf-1 and hgh should be in that list,i did add it,cause some people add it to thier post arsonal.

[tony_canuck]

i do think that all of us should have an open mind and look at the possibilities that the way we currently use something might not be as effective as possible.

personal experience counts for a lot, as there are no studies done on bodybuilders for bodybuilders (which is a shame) To really see how effective nolva is by itself, i'd say try it alone. I did, and liked the results, even though i was skeptical at first. I will be trying another nolva only post-cycle therapy in several weeks, and i'll let you guys know how it went.

[mick-G]

Has anyone tried liquadex through entire cycle then add Proviron 25mg ed after second wk of cycle till end of cycle and taper AS at least 100-150mg for two wks before cycle end. Then use 2,000IU HCG split twice a wk. for 2 wks post cycle and clomid 25md after second wk of HCG. Can continue Proviron. Must be careful with Proviron 50mg max. or could have continious hard on. Supposed to not have any post cycle crashes and less muscle loss, with no limp bisquit.

[jsjs24]

Originally posted by tony_canuck
i've used both clomid and nolva post-cycle, and I've found that my last post-cycle I just used nolva, and I didn't have the acne, which I usually get with clomid, and I didn't lose much mass at all, and was functioning back to normal in a matter of weeks. Overall, I felt nolva alone post cycle was sufficient and i was very happy with the results.

Really, how did you run the nolva...start and amount?

[TxLonghorn]

My first reaction is how the hell stars are given out on this site...superchicken at 2 stars? Give me a fucking break. Newbies don't know who to listen to, the least we can do is point out the good posters, and by god superchicken is one of those.

Anyways, having said that, clomid doesn't always work. It's the same thing as saying 500mg of test/week won't cause gyno. Sorry, but sometimes it does. I think at this time we know that clomid, nolva, and hcg can be very important components to post cycle therapy. We also know that clomid can also be the equivalent of taking 2 steps back. But for the majority, clomid will work as it's supposed to. This is something that one should be able to figure out after their first cycle. If clomid doesn't work for those select few, does that mean it sucks? Hell no, but by the same token, those people shouldn't be called into question because it doesn't work on them like it does for the other 90%.

All of this, gear, pct, antigyno crap, etc., is still just a crapshoot. Bottom line is that nobody knows what causes gyno for sure, nobody knows what the best post cycle therapy is, and nobody knows what the best anything is. Too much of this is individual, and too much of this is anecdotal. It's a shame that our area of interest is so taboo that there aren't regular studies done on it. And until there are, we have to rely on each other. And for that, we need to be tolerant of each other's views and not be so flame happy.