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Originally posted by teekahty you may want to clarify that .....never mind Pro beat me to it
I am not sure if you need the HCG brah , it is a 8 week cycle , but if you already have it run with it , Saturn gave you some solid advice there for your cycle , Rock On
Originally posted by PIT The proper use of Sustanon in a cycle
One of the most misunderstood ideals when it comes to Sustanon is how to properly use it in a cycle. There is no wrong way, but there is a best way to administer proper doseages so you can fully benifit from the esters in Sustanon.
Sustanon was developed for the primary reason of hormone replacement, and because of the mix of esters most patients only needed one shot a month to keep their hormone levels balanced. Because of this design, the bodybuilder will not recieve proper doseages at once or twice a week injections. Your blood levels will fluctuate up and down continually, which is not what you want while on a cycle. You want stable levels to give your body the best chance it can have to build plenty of muscle.
All test is the same, but once only the ester is removed. People that say test is test are wrong unless you are assuming that the ester has already been removed. I have had plenty of different results fromt the different tests I have used, as well as I am sure you have too. The secret to making sus work correctly, is timing the esters so the blood levels do not fluctuate.
I will assume that everyone knows how an ester works and why one is added to the parent testosterone. With sustanon, you have 4 esters:30mg of prop60mg of phenylprop60mg of isocaproate100mg of deconateCombined to give you 250mg. Now everyone knows for themselves how much test they should take due to previous cycles or no cycles at all. Lets take each ester and see how long they will stay active in the body. 30mg of prop--Prop needs to be injected at least every other day to get the full benifits of the test. I think every third day is a little too long to wait, although some people may disagree. Now lets say you are doing a prop only cycle and injecting 30mg twice a week. You can see already that is a waste of gear. If you inject 30mg of prop twice a week you are totally wasting your time. You will NOT grow off of this, so you can basically take sus and knock it down to 220mg an amp if you are injecting once or twice a week. 60 mg of phenylprop--Phenylprop is not that much different than prop. You can get away with injecting the phenylprop ester every third day. Anyone that has taken nandrolone with a phenylprop ester knows that it is shorter acting and must be injected twice a week (for example, getwoods powder). If injected twice a week, then lets even cushion the amount, you will have all 120 mg in one week.
To recap, so far this is what you get the first week---180 mg of test in your system. If you ask me that was a waste of two amps. That is barely enough to supress the axis, and that is about all you will have happen if you inject 180mg of test per week. Now lets look at the longer acting esters in sus. 60mg of Isocaproate--Isocaproate will give you a duration of about a week before it is let go. This is not bad, but at 60 mg you are still not getting enough test to make it worth the time. 100mg of Deconate--Here is the daddy of the four esters. This is the same ester that is used in Decca-Durabolin. The deconate ester should really average out at 2 weeks, but has been said to last up to 3.This ester was added at a 100mg dose to balance out the quicker acting esters used in sustanon.
If we review one more time, we can see roughly how much test we will have in our body per week when we use sus, and hopefully you can see it is very low. You can pretty much take out the prop and phenylprop until about week 3 or 4, because once the other esters release the test and it gets time to build up in the system, the prop and phenylprop is useless. Not until around week six are you going to get your test levels high enough to do any good, and if you are on a 10 week cycle and start tapering week 8, then your test have been only relatively high for about 2-3 weeks. Call me crazy, but that is not at all what I want in a cycle. Every test cycle should be started high to hit those receptors hard, and I dont even taper at the end (but that is a different story).
The numbers that BIGDAWG and I worked on basically show that your test levels will never at one time be stable for more that a couple of weeks. Why do you think that people say they have less bloat on sus and less sides. There is so little of the short acting test in your system at one time that it is impossible to get any bloat or side effects at all. So you ask, well what is the best way to take sus then? First I would answer dont buy it. If you really want to use a 4 blend test then buy some of the old omna (not the new ones), they have more shorter acting tests in them and the blood levels will stay more equal.
If you dont believe me, ask anyone that has used the old omna and they will tell you they got quite a bit of bloat from it. Reason being is the shorter acting esters in the omna build up your blood levels quicker, hence you have the bloat factor. If someone doesnt like my first answer, then I will give them a second, "inject the sus everyday or at the least every other day." I usually get the "wholly shit, thats crazy!!!" answer. I usually tell them back, no its not crazy, its science. The actual science of sus combined with a bodybuilders needs equal injecting every day.
People seem to forget about the esters and think they are injecting all of 1750mg each week and getting every mg of it. Trust me folks, I am not talking about injecting 7 amps a week for 10 weeks, I am suggesting injecting an amp a day for 3 weeks, and letting the esters do thier work after that. When you crunch the numbers, for the first two weeks you are really only getting the prop, phenylprop, and a little of the isocaproate. Maybe about 700-750 mg for the first two weeks, and for weeks after that when all of the isocaproate and deconate kick in you will stay aroung 600-800mg for weeks following the first couple. You have a perfect taper, if you are into that, and stable test levels. If you go to eod, it will vary a bit, but not enough to really make too much of a difference.
Start off the cycle with 5 weeks of dbol while using the sus, and when you are done with the sustanon, then immediately start injecting two anabolics like eq and decca, or decca and primo/winny. This is a cycle that a lot of the pros are using called front end loading with an anabolic taper. I guinea pigged this idea when BIGDAWG and I were discussing it many months back, and damn it was a really good cycle. Not as good as 1000mg of aratest a week, but still a pretty good cycle. I have cycled sus/omna both ways, and trained relatively the same with the same kind of diet. The difference in the two cycles were like night and day, about a 15-17 pound difference, and two amps of omna a week was my first cycle too. You know, the one you are supposed to grow the most off of because of the virgin receptors. So test may be test, but you will not get the same results from every ester out there if you dont know how to time them. If you are thinking of a sus/omna cycle, give this a try. I promise you will not be disappointed, and you just may thank me and DAWG later......peace
I eat at least 6 times a day to build my body
I pray at least 6 times a day to build my soul
Andy13:
The model of sustanon compared to esters of various other half lives shows that sustanon is much, much, more like a single ester testosterone than you might think. I too believed that blood levels would be more difficult to control, compared to TE for instance.. until I plotted this..
I think there is A LOT of misconception about sustanon. There is an infamous thread that has been claimed by more different authors than I can count. I'm not talking about paraphrasing either. This gets cut-n-pasted, word for fucking word, and the sad part is that is it ridiculously erroneous and misleading. It's pretty much entirely shyte except for the few instances where universal, 'impossible-to-fuck-up no-matter-what' type of 'good' information such as "inject more frequently" is given.. But even then, it is buried in so much illogical garbage that the principles are skewed. I hate this post.
This is a huge reason why many BBers do not understand the concept of the ester. I'm not talking about knowing "longer ester= longer half life, shorter ester= faster acting. Knowledge of (only) this trivial information is dangerous. I remember when I first learned about esters and had only this understanding.. I thought I knew everything there was to know. It turns out that this isn't even the half of it.
Back to my rant about this infamous sustanon post, the author clearly does not understand how esters work. The common misconception that I (and probably many others) had once is that in sustanon, the prop releases first, and then the phenyl prop, followed by the longer esters (but later). After all, the longer esters don't kick in until week 3 or so, right? Nothing say's "I have no fucking clue about esters" quite like the latter statement..
This fundamental lack of understanding is something I feel is important, and I have made it my life-long goal to take the time and try and explain this (100's of times) to those who have been misinformed. A good many of them don't give a shit. They want the bottom line, after all, who gives a shit about esters during their 10-month winter hiatus from the gym? I can certainly appreciate that... AAS mentoring isn't for everyone and everyone shouldn't do it.. The problem is that it is usually these dudes (who care only to know where to stick the pin) that are the first one's to regurgitate the shit they heard yesterday, thus doing their part to perpetuate the cycle of ignorance…
Next time, I’ll tell you how I really feel about the idiots in this sport who litter the boards with filth and plagiarized garbage..
Andy
I eat at least 6 times a day to build my body
I pray at least 6 times a day to build my soul
I think I'm going to do a resaerch to have some knowledge regards esters. Thanks for all the info but I was wondering assuming I can go at most with 2 amps of sustanon, how does I can take it ed, more and more when I taper down with one amp, More complex!!
Originally posted by BorgJosmar I think I'm going to do a resaerch to have some knowledge regards esters. Thanks for all the info but I was wondering assuming I can go at most with 2 amps of sustanon, how does I can take it ed, more and more when I taper down with one amp, More complex!!
Esters explained
Just thought I'd put this up again with a new subject title so it can be found easily in the search. It's a good read, written by our very own Juice Authority
One of the most misunderstood subjects in the world of steroids is the ester--the mechanism by which injectable esterified steroids like testosterone cypionate, testosterone enanthate, and Sustanon work. If you take a quick look around the Internet you will probably find countless articles that consider one form of a steroid far more effective than another. Arguments over the superiority of cypionate to enanthate, or Sustanon to all other testosterones are of course very common. Such arguments are in all practicality, baseless. In this report we'll take an authoritative look at the ester and what specifically it does to a steroid.
WHAT AN ESTER IS, AND HOW IT WORKS
I'm sure that if you have taken an interest in anabolic steroids you have noticed the similarities on the labeling of many drugs. Let's look at testosterone for example. One can find compounds like testosterone cypionate, enanthate, propionate, heptylate; caproate, phenylpropionate, isocaproate, decanoate, acetate, the list goes on and on. In all such cases the parent hormone is testosterone, which had been modified by adding an ester (enanthate, propionate etc.) to its structure. The following question arises: What is the difference between the various esterified versions of testosterone in regards to their use in bodybuilding?
An ester is a chain composed primarily of carbon and hydrogen atoms. This chain is typically attached to the parent steroid hormone at the 17th carbon position (beta orientation), although some compounds do carry esters at position 3 (for the purposes of this article it is not crucial to understand the exact position of the ester). Esterification of an injectable anabolic/androgenic steroid basically accomplishes one thing, it slows the release of the parent steroid from the site of injection. This happens because the ester will notably lower the water solubility of the steroid, and increase its lipid (fat) solubility. This will cause the drug to form a deposit in the muscle tissue, from which it will slowly enter into circulation as it is picked up in small quantities by the blood. Generally, the longer the ester chain, the lower the water solubility of the compound, and the longer it will take to for the full dosage to reach general circulation.
Slowing the release of the parent steroid is a great benefit in steroid medicine, as free testosterone (or other steroid hormones) previously would remain active in the body for a very short period of time (typically hours). This would necessitate an unpleasant daily injection schedule if one wished to maintain a continuous elevation of testosterone (the goal of testosterone replacement therapy). By adding an ester, the patient can visit the doctor as infrequently as once per month for his injection, instead of having to constantly re-administer the drug to achieve a therapeutic effect. Clearly without the use of an ester, therapy with an injectable anabolic/androgen would be much more difficult.
Esterification temporarily deactivates the steroid molecule. With a chain blocking the 17th beta position, binding to the androgen receptor is not possible (it can exert no activity in the body). In order for the compound to become active the ester must therefore first be removed. This automatically occurs once the compound has filtered into blood circulation, where esterase enzymes quickly cleave off (hydrolyze) the ester chain. This will restore the necessary hydroxyl (OH) group at the 17th beta position, enabling the drug to attach to the appropriate receptor. Now and only now will the steroid be able to have an effect on skeletal muscle tissue. You can start to see why considering testosterone cypionate much more potent than enanthate makes little sense, as your muscles are seeing only free testosterone no matter what ester was used to deploy it.
ACTIONS OF DIFFERENT ESTERS
There are many different esters that are used with anabolic/androgenic steroids, but again, they all do basically the same thing. Esters vary only in their ability to reduce a steroid's water solubility. An ester like propionate for example will slow the release of a steroid for a few days, while the duration will be weeks with a decanoate ester. Esters have no effect on the tendency for the parent steroid to convert to estrogen or DHT (dihydrotestosterone: a more potent metabolite) nor will it effect the overall muscle-building potency of the compound. Any differences in results and side effects that may be noted by bodybuilders who have used various esterified versions of the same base steroid are just issues of timing. Testosterone enanthate causes estrogen related problems more readily than Sustanon, simply because with enanthate testosterone levels will peak and trough much sooner (1-2 week release duration as opposed to 3 or 4). Likewise testosterone suspension is the worst in regards to gyno and water bloat because blood hormone levels peak so quickly with this drug. Instead of waiting weeks for testosterone levels to rise to their highest point, here we are at most looking at a couple of days. Given an equal blood level of testosterone, there would be no difference in the rate of aromatization or DHT conversion between different esters. There is simply no mechanism for this to be possible.
There is however one way that we can say an ester does technically effect potency; it is calculated in the steroid weight. The heavier the ester chain, the greater is its percentage of the total weight. In the case of testosterone enanthate for example, 250mg of esterified steroid (testosterone enanthate) is equal to only 180mg of free testosterone. 70mgs out of each 250mg injection is the weight of the ester. If we wanted to be really picky, we could consider enanthate slightly MORE potent than cypionate (I know this goes against popular thinking) as its ester chain contains one less carbon atom (therefore taking up a slightly smaller percentage of total weight). Propionate would of course come out on top of the three, releasing a measurable (but not significant) amount more testosterone per injection than cypionate or enanthate.
IN CONCLUSION
While the advent of esters certainly constitutes an invaluable advance in the field of anabolic steroid medicine, clearly you can see that there is no magic involved here. Esters work in a well-understood and predictable manner, and do not alter the activity of the parent steroid in any way other than to delay its release. Although the lure surrounding various steroid products like testosterone cypionate, Sustanon, Omnadren etc. certainly makes for interesting conversation, realistically it just amounts to misinformation that the athlete would be better off ignoring. Testosterone is testosterone and anyone who is going to tell you one ester form of this (or any) hormone is much better than another one should do a little more research, and a lot less talking.
ESTER PROFILES
Sustanon: The "king" of testosterone blends.
The four different testosterone esters in this product certainly look appealing to the consumer, there is no denying that. But for the athlete I think it is all just a matter of marketing (Hell, why buy one ester when you can get four?). In clinical situations I can see some strong uses for it. If you were undergoing testosterone replacement therapy for example, you would probably find Sustanon a much more comfortable option than testosterone enanthate. You would need to visit the doctor less frequently for an injection, and blood levels should be more steadily maintained between treatments. But for the bodybuilder who is injecting 4 ampules of Sustanon per week, there is no advantage over other testosterone products. In fact, the high price tag for Sustanon usually makes it a very poor buy in the face of cheaper testosterone enanthate/cypionate. Bodybuilders should probably stop looking at the four ester issue, and stick with totals (Sustanon is just a 250mg testosterone ampule). Were enanthate to be available for say $10 per amp of 250mg, and Sustanon priced nearly double that, buying the Sustanon would be like throwing money away. If you could get nearly double the milligram amount for the same price with enanthate, this is the better product to go with hands down. Leave the high priced stuff for the guys who don't know any better.
No, it is the blood levels of one shot of sustanon, if thats all someone took. BTW, Andy13 is one of the smartest guys on the net, as far as the techinical stuff. Nandi, Andy13, and i hate to say it.........BigCat, are as good as it gets as far as knowledge.
I eat at least 6 times a day to build my body
I pray at least 6 times a day to build my soul
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