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**prolangtum** · 05-12-2003, 01:06 AM

It may have some post cycle help:

Insulin enhancement of luteinizing hormone and follicle-stimulating hormone release by cultured pituitary cells.

Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Yen SS.

The role of insulin in the regulation of basal and gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH)-stimulated release of LH and FSH was investigated in vitro using primary cultures of rat anterior pituitary cells from adult ovariectomized rats. Anterior pituitary cells were incubated for 2 days in the presence or absence of insulin in a serum-free medium. At the end of the insulin treatment, the cells were washed and reincubated in the presence or absence of GnRH, and the LH and FSH released into the medium were measured by RIA. Treatment with insulin (1.0 microgram/ml) for 2 days resulted in significant increases in both the basal and the maximal release of LH and FSH, as well as a 3.2- and 6.3-fold decrease in the ED50 values for GnRH in terms of LH and FSH release, respectively. Treatment with increasing concentrations (0.1-10,000 ng/ml) of insulin, led to a dose-dependent increase in the GnRH (3 X 10(-10) M)-stimulated release of both LH and FSH. This effect of insulin was significant (P less than 0.05) at a physiological concentration of 1 ng/ml (24 microU/ml) with an ED50 value of 40 ng/ml. Increasing duration of exposure to insulin resulted in time-dependent increases in the GnRH (3 X 10(-10) M)-stimulated release of LH, becoming significant at 24 h with maximal enhancement observed by 48 h. The effect of insulin was specific; epidermal or fibroblast growth factor did not enhance LH release. The augmenting effect of insulin was not associated with cellular proliferation or an overall change in protein or LH synthesis. Furthermore, the effect of insulin was independent of the ambient glucose concentration. Insulin was, however, without effect on gonadotrophs cultured in a serum-supplemented medium. Our findings suggest that the gonadotroph constitutes a target cell of insulin and that insulin may act directly on the anterior pituitary in the regulation of gonadotropin release.

PMID: 6781875 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

**BIG-G** · 05-12-2003, 01:57 AM

OK, apreciate the scientific aproach but im not catchin the answer so can ya break it down for me in meathead terms??

**prolangtum** · 05-12-2003, 02:38 AM

Ok, simplified, insulin may help you recover sooner post cycle

**BIG-G** · 05-12-2003, 02:57 AM

Ha haa, thank you prolangtum! So taken at moderate doses and glucose monitor on hand, insulin could be done safely and be a good "gainskeepers formula" or bridging agent. Good then cause get it for free!

**buyb12** · 05-12-2003, 03:39 AM

be careful sounds like you haven't done slin before .....this may help. I think slin with dbol 10mg ed first thing in the morning...with hcg .....that's the ticket

I did not write this. It is in the Faq section on Fitnessgeared. It a good place to start your homework. this makes light of the situation it is very serious stuff. I hope this helps

Insulin Facts!
Ok, lets have a look at insulin.
Its highly anabolic and non-androgenic, and in case some of you are in the dark (I'd like to think we're all clear on anabolic versus androgenic, but ya never know) I'll briefly touch on the subject before diving in... if youre ok on anabolic/androgenic concepts, skip to the INSULIN part...

ANDROGENIC VERSUS ANABOLIC

ANABOLIC is defined as "The process of constructive metabolism" or of building complex substances out of simple substances.
The way your body processes protien, carbohydrates, and fat (all simple substances) and makes muscle (a complex substance) is ANABOLISM.

ANDROGENIC is basically defined as pertaining to male sex characteristics.

ANDROGENIC/ANABOLIC

"Steroids" are actually called "Anabolic Androgenic Steroids." They accomplish "anabolism" through "anabolic" pathways, some being more androgenic (testosterone esters) and some less (winstrol, anavar, primobolan, ect...).
Most often, with reduced androgenic properties comes reduced anabolic properties, but it isnt always cut and dry. If anyone is interested I'll go into it another time, but lets head toward the insulin topic.

INSULIN: NonAndrogenic but Anabolic

Insulin is NOT a sex hormone. It is not related in any way to testosterone, or to estrogen for that matter. It is a product of the pancreas as opposed to testosterone which is a product of the HPTA, pituitary, gonadal, leydig, mishmash of interconnected glands...

WHY IS INSULIN ANABOLIC

So why is insulin anabolic then? Insulin is a partitioning agent. A "shuttle" if you will.
Picture insulin as a bus. Nutrients board the bus, and insulin pulls away and drops off the nutrients at the proper bus stop. That is basically what it does, and for all intents and purposes that is everything you need to know to understand how it works.
So by insulin shuttling these nutrient where they need to go, it enables anabolism and is therefor anabolic!

WHY NOT JUST TAKE CARBS TO RAISE INSULIN

Well, the amount of carbs you would need to take in to increase natural insulin levels to the degree a 10 i.u. shot would would be far more dangerous than using insuiln (and using insulin is NOT that hard OR dangerous).
Carbs at that level would eventually lead to diabetes and fat gains.
If insulin is a bus taking nutrients where they need to go, then exogenous insulin is a bullet train! It can hold far more nutrients than a normal naturally produced burst of insulin can, and it works quicker. Exogenous insulin is the most efficient way to accomplish glycogen overcompensation, period.

WHAT KIND DO I TAKE

Im a major supporter of fast acting insulin. The faster the better!
Currently he fastest acting insulin available is Humalog. It is active in 15 minutes, peaks in 1 hour and clears the system around 2 hours.
Next would be Humalin-R. It is active in about 30 minutes, peaks at the 2 hour mark, and clears the system at the 4 hour mark.
"Biophasics" are mixtures of fast and slow acting insulins, but are not the best choice in my opinion, due to an active dose being in you throughout the day. The reason you dont want that will be covered in the "HOW DO I USE IT" section.
There are also Humalin-L and Humalin-S, but they are long acting, and are no more use to me than the Biophasics. There are also porccine and bovine derived insulin, but I am against injecting animal derived substances.

WHEN (AND HOW MUCH) TO USE

Im going to assume we want to avoid any fat gains at all. Even bulking I dont like to gain any unneccesary fat, so Im going to disuss it from that stand point.
The ultra conservative time to use insulin is post-workout. Most people who are concerned about fat dont go over 10 i.u. as a total dose.
Some people us it on waking, before breakfast, since your body is in a basically carb depleted state. Its the kind of thng you have to try for yourslef, and if it works for you, do it. If you thnk youre gaining fat, stop. BUT! Dont start it at both times at once. Make sure you get your post workout dosage worked out and that you know it is not causing you any fat gains before you try pre-breakfast shots. That way you can take out all the guess work as to where any fat gains may come from.

DISPELLING A FEW MYTHS

There is a commoly held perception that you MUSt take in 10grams of carbs per I.U. of insulin, some radicals say 5 grams... well, theyre both wrong.
I got curious about this when I discovered that my insulin dependant diabetic friend didnt even keep track of what she ate post injection. She would feel hypoglycemic after a shot and take a Glucose Tablet.
A glucose tablet is only 5 grams of glucose (carbs)! So I started to think, "Hmmm, mabye everyone is off point on this?"
After conducting a few experiments on myself, I found that you can go considerably lower in carbs than people previously believed.
Now it doesnt make sense to go low in carbs, because that defies the purpose of using the insulin in the first place, but it does free us from having to use so much that there might be some "spill over" in carbs that cant be utilized. So it really makes us able to have more freedom in carbs choices and amounts.
The "risk" in insulin use is not as risky as people believe. Any person with an ounce of sense can see the warning signs of a problem coming, and remedy the situation.

HOW DO I DO IT

If you look at the drug store, you can get these little pen cases that hold a loaded insulin syringe. They are great for our need, you load up the syringe, and put it in the case, and throw it in your bag/purse/whatever. After the workout, head to a bathroom stall and inject it under the skin! Pull up a little skin from the abdomen or upper thigh (anywhere will do, but these are easiest) and inject. Do not shoot into a muscle. This rushes the dose and makes it harder to predict when it will spike.
So now you have 15 minutes to get some carbs (actually you have longer, since the initial hit of the dose is mild and easy to cope with, the spike is a little more harsh, but still nothing unbearable. If you use the carbs, you probobly wont notice the initial dose OR the spike.)
(this is based on Humalog at 10 i.u.)
I use a powder with a 20% simple/80% complex ratio (actually its 17% mono, 5% di, 7% tri, 5%tetra, and 66% penta-saccharides). I use about 60grams of carbs to the 10 i.u. of insulin.
This gives me a nice solid stream of carbs to overcompensate my depleted muscles, but not so many that I risk fat accumulation from the excess.
Now you are good to go till around 1 hour after the initial injection. At this 1 hour mark, the majority of the dose hits your system. Now is the time to eat a good balanced (AND FAT FREE!) meal. The fat-free emphasis will be explained in the POTENTIAL PROBLEMS section. This balance meal of carbs and protien and little to know fat can be anything from a protien drink and a crab drink, to a low fat MRP, to some lean chicken and rice... your choice.
After this meal, you dont need to pay anymore consideration to the insulin, it will gradually decrease and will be out of your system at the 2 hour mark.
Till you get accustmed to the use of insulin, start low and slow. Start at 2 i.u. then 5 i.u. then 7 i.u. then 10 i.u. That way you get a better understanding of any hypoglycemia you may encounter. Ive went as high as 35 i.u., just to try it, but at a certain point a higher dosage doesnt yield any better results (except fat!)

POTENTIAL PROBLEMS

Insulin is relativly safe. If you dont take in any carbs after using it, your body will give you PLENNTY of warning! Youll feel dizzy, tired, achey... hypoglycemic. What is happening is your body has no glycogen to use as fuel. Your muscles re depleted from working out, and often times youve tapped your liver for any remaining glycogen. The insulin does, searching for glycogen to use, takes the rest from your liver, and in the absence of carbs coming in to make more, it heads for the brain.
Your brain uses glucose as its primary fuel source (a little fat, too.) Thats why you get dizzy and light headed, the same with during a ketogenic diet... low glucose equals light headedness.
So if you forget about the carbs, youll get a warning from yuor body, and you can get your ass in gear and get some carbs in you.
If you get to the point where youre nauseated, just drink some sugary beverage and get some carbs in you quickly. Youre still a long long way from any major danger, but dont mess around.
"Fat Free" I said earlier about the 1 hour mark meal. During the 2 hours of the dosage duration, you should avoid fat like it is the plauge! Insulins partitioning properties are as effective at sending fat to the fat stores as it is carbs and protien to muscles!
So till the dose is clear of your system, NO FAT! (Thats another reason why I advocate the fastest acting insulin you can get.)

Well, I cant think of anything else off hand that needs to be said, but if I missed anything, just ask. I may have taken somethng for granted and figured everyone would know or assume on their own...

SO WHY BOTHER

Well, the carbs you take in after the shot are immediatly sent to your muscles to make up for the depleted state your workout put them in. At this point you are able to actually fill them with MORE glycogen than they could hold before the workout. This adds up to extra macro nutrients in the system for repairing the micro fiber damage done to the muscles.
The protien you take in at the 1 hour meal (and you can take in post workout protien shake after the carbs, too) will be preferentially sent where it is needed the most. So you can get those muscles rebuilt faster, and more efficiantly!

**BIG-G** · 05-12-2003, 03:57 AM

NOW THAT WAS A GREAT READ MY FRIEND! All is exactly what my doctor 'friend' said on how to use it, the warnings and build up from 2 to 10 i.u.'s and how to time the carb, sugar intake and a meal or protein shake. How to pinch the skin and use only post workout as best usadge.

THANX,, BIG-G

**biotec** · 05-12-2003, 07:48 AM

once U get some experiance with slin U might want to try taking a few iu's about 20min-1/2 hour before you're workout is done....
I take 15iu's before my workout along with a carbo rush drink.
The pumps R amazing.
However i wouldn't recomend doing this unless U have prior. exp. with slin...
Biotec....

**BigD** · 05-12-2003, 08:43 AM

Another thing, no reason to bridge btw your first and second cycles, don't be like josh! You WILL NOT fully recover, even Fonz called it the "Dbol ramp-off" now instead of dbol bridge. You will recover maybe 80-90% while keeping more gains for sure, but not full recovery. I'm not flaming at all, just letting you know. Btw, I'm just coming off a 10MONTHer, and doing the dbol bridge. All my bros have bet I stay off no longer than 2 weeks... damn them, just b/c I compete doesn't mean I HAVE to stay on year-round does it? I hope so, cause if it does I have another good excuse

**prolangtum** · 05-12-2003, 10:00 AM

If you use the dbol bridge, dont count it as recovery time. It is to help keep gains. So if your cycle is 10 weeks, the supposed dbol off-ramp is 8 weeks also, than take an additional 8 weeks off completley.

**BIG-G** · 05-13-2003, 02:17 AM

BUMP

**BIG-G** · 05-13-2003, 12:17 PM

another bump.........

**Orca** · 05-13-2003, 04:15 PM

good reading...

**BIG-G** · 05-13-2003, 05:37 PM

Bridging.........

OK so what im getting here is that a dbol bridge can deffinately help keep gains and allow me to recover 80% to 90% which is plenty for the boys since i never got any t.a. And the slin has no effect on hpta system or test levels and is highly anabolic and deffinately a great shuttle bus for going back on the creatine (double stack)!! Now that i can all live with!! Thanx Bros!!

BIG-G

**buyb12** · 05-13-2003, 10:32 PM

ok here go the bridging article ....it's as good as the slin one
I use slin first thing in the morning and post work out.....inject 10iu 2 yogart cups @ 0 fat to get the carbs followed by a shake then a meal 1 hour later.I way between 215-235
you will grow with the slin. Humalog all the way don't mess with anything less.

this is from Fonz

The Dianabol Bridge Explained Post #1

WittenBy: Fonz
I've been reading some of the posts regarding this
bridge and some of them are truly from left-field.
First of, this is a BRIDGE. OK? a B-R-I-D-G-E.

Your LH function and Test levels are supposed
to RECOVER.

Ok, now having said that.
Here's the pharmo-kinetics behind Methandrostenelone,
brand name Dianabol.

10mg taken at once will increase your average testosterone level by 5 times and decrease your endogeneous cosrtisone
by 50-70%.

The reason why dianabol is a good choice for a bridge is that
its VERY anti-catabolic. It also dopaminergic. Giving you the
benefits of increased CNS strength modulation by
its androgenic mode of action.
Androgens, in case you don't know, increase neuro-muscular
function, thus STRENGTH.

OK. Now, lets delve into the metabolic chemistry behind
dianabol's choice as a bridging agent.

When are testosterone levels highest?

Answer: In the AM, thats when.

Your body releases a tesosterone spike in the morning.
This is when tesosterone levels are highest.

When are Insulin levels lowest?

Answer: In the AM thats when.

Low insulin levels=increased protein used as fuel.
(Also fat, but protein is also being converted
to glucose via glucogenesis)

OK, here is where dball's short half-life works for us
(Its 3.2-4.5 hrs btw)

Lets take Subject X.

He's in bridging mode.
He has just woken up.
The body is about to release tesosterone, thus
creating a spike.
His insulin levels are low.
His LH and test levels are very low.

He pops 10mgs of dianabol.

Here is where things get interesting.

The 10mgs of dianabol will cause a testosterone
spike WHICH COINCIDES WITH the testosterone
released ENDOGENEOUSLY in the AM by the testes.

The body will be partially fooled.
It will not entirely detect the increased levels of testosterone
(above the normal test sipke), thus LH function WILL
REMAIN only partially(Very little actually) suppressed.

In other words, he is "piggy-backing" an extra dose of testosterone on top of the endogeneously reduced one,
thus creating an "inflated" test spike.

Henceforth, LH levels WILL BE ALLOWED TO SLOWLY
RECOVER over time.
Also, dballs anti-catabolic effect will help curb protein-loss
in the morning from low insulogenic levels.

HOWEVER, and here is where almost all of you go wrong.

You CANNOT GO PAST 10mg of dianabol in the AM
for this bridge to work!!!!

Why? Because of the blood levels of dianabol you would generate.

10mg in the AM will be broken down to 5mg in about 4 hrs
(Probably less)

5mg of dianabol, is not enough to cause another rise
in testosterone levels after the precceeding one. Thus,
LH function is allowed to up-regulate.

Anything more(Say 20mgs), will cause a SEDCONDARY
testosterone spike which WILL inhibit LH function further,
thus not allowing LH function to recover.

Oh yeah...100mgs? ROTLMFAO!! Fat chance.

The difference between 20mgs and 10mgs means the difference
between allowing LH to recover slowly and not allowing it to.

So, here's the scenario summed up:

Beginning: LOW LH and test.

Adding the 10mgs dball.

LH is allowed to SLOWLY RECOVER over time as
testosterone levels are kept at a level which
will not cause muscle-loss. Also, dball's anti-catabolic effects
will reduce protein degradation.(Via cortisone
reduction)

This is what i call a double positive. You have managed to
INCREASE anabolism(Test levels) and DECREASE
catabolism(cortisone), during a bridge to boot!!

The bridge should last 8 weeks, NO LESS.
I also have to say, that it WILL NOT restore
complete LH function. It'll get you 80-90%
of the way there but the only way you're going
to get your full LH function back is if you go OFF
completely.
Anavar WILL NOT restore LH completely either btw.
(In case anybody is wondering.)
The difference is that with anavar you can take it
throughout the day and with dball it HAS TO BE
once in the AM.

Hope that clears the air.

Fonz

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