usnic acid

[gearedup]

Thanks macro I always thought this stuff was very dangerous especially fore the people that think more is better with everything! Maybe in small moderation with other compounds would be great!

Originally posted by macro
btw- very poor analysis of that study...

the issue is tissue activity.. the fact that at 1/50 the dosage it causes complete cessation of oxidative phosphoralation.. does not means that it works.. it means that it works very well in liver tissue (for which it apparently has a high affinity).. it means that it is dangerous.

1. this product should not be, IMHO, OTC and the lack of warning to the consumer is actionable... as well as deplorable. it causes liver failure.. and the consumer should at the very least be warned of that risk..

and the number of problems and side effects in that "sales pitch" is SEVERELY underestimated..

btw- not saying that UA and SU dont work.. (they certainly dont work as well as DNP) but DNP is in fact safer-- perhaps that should give perspective... considering the manner in which it is sold have seen a # of people saying that they would never touch DNP and then taking UA.. due to misinformation by the sellers.. (it is not safe DNP.. if anything it is LESS SAFE AND LESS EFFECTIVE DNP)

[okcgrl]

Macro, you are not reading the science.

The studies that are cited with Usnic Acid are only looking at massive quantities of usnic acid brought into contact with mice liver cells, which is neither good science nor even relevant to human consumption.

A more definitive study from the Univeristy of Pavia (in Italy)refutes the false belief that usnic acid is toxic:

Usnic Acid

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Botanical Description: This natural bactericide, extracted from the Cetraria Islandica (Iceland Lichen or Artico) is well-advised in replacement of antibiotic medicines as it can be taken in high quantities without any acute (short-term) or chronic (long-term) toxicity or danger for health. This resulted from many exams and has

been confirmed by an examination dated 15/09/200 rendered by Messrs. Luigia Favalli, Luigi Manzo and Roberto Scelsi, all professors working at the Faculty of Pharmacy, Toxicology and Pathological Anatomy of Pavia University.

Ingredients: anthocyanosides

Action and Indiction: About analgesic and antipiretic action

As tuberculosis, tumour and HIV inhibitor

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DNP study:

: J Mol Cell Cardiol 2002 May;34(5):555-69

Dinitrophenol pretreatment of rat ventricular myocytes protects against damage by metabolic inhibition and reperfusion.

Rodrigo GC, Lawrence CL, Standen NB.

Ion Channel Group, Department of Cell Physiology and Pharmacology, University of Leicester, PO Box 138, Leicester, LE1 9HN, UK. nbs@le.ac.uk

We have investigated the protective effects of pretreatment with the mitochondrial uncoupler 2,4-dinitrophenol on the cellular damage induced by metabolic inhibition (with cyanide and iodoacetic acid) and reperfusion in freshly isolated adult rat ventricular myocytes. Damage was assessed from changes in cell length and morphology measured using video microscopy.
Intracellular Ca(2+), mitochondrial membrane potential, and NADH were measured using fura-2, tetramethylrhodamine ethyl ester and autofluorescence, respectively. During metabolic inhibition myocytes developed rigor, and on reperfusion 73.6+/-8.1% hypercontracted and 10.8+/-6.7% recovered contractile
function in response to electrical stimulation. Intracellular Ca(2+) increased substantially, indicated by a rise in the fura-2 ratio (340/380 nm) on reperfusion from 0.86+/-0.04 to 1.93+/-0.18. Myocytes pretreated with substrate-free Tyrode containing 50 microm dinitrophenol showed reduced reperfusion injury: 29.0+/-7.4% of cells hypercontracted and 65.3+/-7.3% recovered contractile function (P<0.001 vs control). The fura-2 ratio on
reperfusion was also lower at 1.01+/-0.08. Fluorescence measurements showed that dinitrophenol caused mitochondrial depolarisation, and decreased NADH. The presence of the substrates glucose and pyruvate reduced these effects, and
abolished the protection against damage by metabolic inhibition and reperfusion. However protection was unaffected by block of ATP-sensitive potassium channels. Thus the protective effects of pretreatment with dinitrophenol may result from a reduction in NADH in response to mitochondrial depolarisation. Copyright 2002

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What this means is by depolorizing mitochondria whether with DNP or Usnic Acid, there is less available electrons for the formation of oxygen free radicals, thus reducing oxidative stress on cells and tissue!

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It is highly unlikely that usnic acid can cause liver or tissue problems. BTW, 70% of all liver failures in the US are caused by the oral ingestion of Acetaminophen (Tylenol)

Read this:

http://pulse.ucdavis.edu/scripts/01..._liver_dmg.html

[macro]

reading the science.. but understand it..

thats where your problem lies..

btw- that tylenol # is very incorrect.. alcohol is the #1 cause of liver failure in the united states..

dont know where you are getting your information.. but pretty sure its from the people that are selling UA and SU...

btw2- be sure that they will eventually be defendants just as Matpal and Derek are now..

[macro]

btw- it is extremely poor science equate one uncouplers activity with another

btw2- having heard so much about the university of pavia as well as thier methodology (which seems to use the whole lichen and not the extract) sure that the prestige of such a university carries much wieght

[okcgrl]

Once again

you are relying on pseudo-science and not on empirical evidence.

Uncouplers protect dna and prevent cellular damage as evidenced by the above study.

As for the University of Pavia; it is an institution of high esteem with a world reknown departments in the fields of biochemistry, pharmachology, and toxicology. The study that was referenced in their abstract was commissioned by the Italian Court System (their legal system is different than the US's)for a legal case that was being heard by the Court. The study was objective (no nutritional supplement manufacturer had funded the study (done for the Italian Court System)) and conclusively showed that the oral ingestion (by humans) of large quantities of usnic acid was neither acutely nor chronically damaging to the liver.

You are comparing a study done on humans (and dismisssing it) with a study done on mice liver cells in a petri dish (and citing it as proof).

I believe that everybody has to take some caution when ingesting any nutritional supplement; but, you are using scare tactics and poor science.

Lastly, I will agree with you that alcohol is damaging to the liver; however, if you look at the statistics associated with liver failure and liver transplants (Mayo Clinic cites this), you will see that it is indeed, Acetaminophen, which accounts for 70% of all liver failures in the US.

[macro]

Re: Once again

Originally posted by okcgrl

Uncouplers protect dna and prevent cellular damage as evidenced by the above study.

the study used DNP, not usnic acid... all that study says is that DNP can protect against cell death induced by CYANIDE... as an uncoupler it protects against reverse E flow caused by cyanide...

unless you understand the study.. dont try to use it

[macro]

Re: Once again

Originally posted by okcgrl

As for the University of Pavia; it is an institution of high esteem with a world reknown departments in the fields of biochemistry, pharmachology, and toxicology. The study that was referenced in their abstract was commissioned by the Italian Court System (their legal system is different than the US's)for a legal case that was being heard by the Court. The study was objective (no nutritional supplement manufacturer had funded the study (done for the Italian Court System)) and conclusively showed that the oral ingestion (by humans) of large quantities of usnic acid was neither acutely nor chronically damaging to the liver.

not usnic acid.. but usnea barbata.. the whole lichen.. percentage of usnic is not given anywhere.. but is likely much less than 2%

in usnea laevis it is 2.7% (which was conisdered high)

btw- in one study 20 grams/kg of usnea barbata was LD50 (single dose)
Rom J Physiol 1993 Jan-Jun;30(1-2):101-7 Related Articles, Links


Contributions to the complex study of some lichens-Usnea genus. Pharmacological studies on Usnea barbata and Usnea hirta species.

though even that # may be off as unknown what other constituents role.. and that is single dosing.. so.. extended use may have a quite a different impact.. ld50 amount will tend to drop significantly.. especially if the issue is hepatic...

[macro]

Re: Once again

Originally posted by okcgrl

Lastly, I will agree with you that alcohol is damaging to the liver; however, if you look at the statistics associated with liver failure and liver transplants (Mayo Clinic cites this), you will see that it is indeed, Acetaminophen, which accounts for 70% of all liver failures in the US.

Fulminant liver failure, liver failure without previous presence of disease. the number is that high due to the fact that that tylenol overdose is used for suicide. the prime cause of FHF in the united states in viral heptatis, in the absence of overdose.

of actual liver failures it comprises a small percent.

Hepatology 1995 Jan;21(1):240-52

Fulminant hepatic failure (FHF) is defined by the appearance of severe liver injury with hepatic encephalopathy in a previously healthy person. There are an estimated 2,000 cases of FHF in the United States yearly, representing 0.1% of all deaths and, perhaps, 6% of liver-related deaths. The causes of FHF are many, the chief ones in the United States being hepatitis A; B; non-A, non-B and drug induced liver disease. There are no specific therapies for FHF, however, liver transplantation is recommended for situations in which spontaneous recovery appears unlikely. Factors that are valuable in assessing the likelihood of spontaneous recovery are static features such as patient age and etiology of FHF and dynamic features including encephalopathy grade, prothrombin time, and serum bilirubin. Presently, approximately 7% of all liver transplants are done for FHF and the 1-year patient survival rates average 63%, somewhat less than survival rates for nonfulminant liver disease, averaging 78%. The management of patients with FHF is challenging, particularly important being monitoring and early treatment of infections, hemodynamic abnormalities, and brain edema. Innovative approaches to management and therapy include use of cytoprotective or antiviral medications, hepatic support systems, extracorporeal liver support, hepatocyte transplantation, auxiliary liver transplantation, and xenotransplantation. None of these are of proven benefit, but many are promising as a means to support the patient with FHF until spontaneous recovery occurs or a suitable liver graft is available for transplantation.

[okcgrl]

Macro, you and I seem to be taking over this thread.

The Pavia study used 98.5% pure usnic acid with no acute (short term usage) nor chronic (from long term usage) damage to the human liver. The usnic acid was administered orally.

[prolangtum]

Moral of the story

DNP-Harsh on the body
Usnic Acid-Worse on the body

Have a nice day

[Josh]

SeaHawk - look what u started lol

[macro]

Originally posted by okcgrl


The Pavia study used 98.5% pure usnic acid with no acute (short term usage) nor chronic (from long term usage) damage to the human liver. The usnic acid was administered orally.

sorry but this reference is a joke.. this study is not even available on medline.. not even referenced.. the only place the REFERENCE is available is on a chinese site that sells usnic acid extract.

do you even have the abstract?

btw.. its obvious that you got it from that site because it is a direct cut and paste (which is why your reference says /200 .. instead of /2000) as it does on their site

http://www.chineseherbalextract.com/Products/Introduce/UsnicAcid.htm

[macro]

btw- the university of pavia has done studies on lichens, including usnea, as determinants of air pollution...

[okcgrl]

FYI,

I not only have the abstract, I alos have a copy of the complete 200 page report.

[okcgrl]

FYI,

I not only have the abstract, I also have a copy of the complete 200 page report.

You, obviously, have an axe to grind. Are you an ephedra manufacturer?