TweetI personally wouldnt have done my HCG at the end but its to late now i usually wait about 2 and a half before starting PCT when i end with a long ester. For me anyway the prefered way is to end with a short ester like prop so i can go right into PCT.

TweetDONT USE HCG NOW.JUST START PCT IN 2 WEEKS. FORGET ABOUT THE HCG SHOULD OF USED IT DURING YOUR CYCLE

TweetSTOP THE HCG AND START CLOMID IN 2 WEEKS INCASE U DIDNT READ THOSE OTHER 2 REPLY'S

TweetListen to fuzo, pct in 2 weeks. next time run hcg during cycle to stop the atrophy. like sat/sun while on.

Tweetbut if his nads are way small dont you guys think he should hit them with hcg as the enan is tapering down so they are ready to go before he starts clomid?

TweetYeah whats wrong with running it at the end? run it for the two weeks then start your clomid just as you have it. 2 saturdays not 3.

I know running it during may be better but both ways will work.

TweetHcg while making your nads drop and fill back up is still suppressive. Read this and remember this Swales guy is one smart mofo. I found this here on this site originally

PCT by SWALE

Here is an interesting article from Musclechemistry on PCT by SWALE (he is an MD)

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn't enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldnÂ’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM''s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a Â"bridgeÂ". Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can't fool the bodyit is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don't want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.
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MNUNZIO@HUSHMAIL
ADMIN@FITNESSGEARED

TweetMore of the same


Using HCG
It is our opinion that HCG is probably one of the most misunderstood and misused compounds in bodybuilding. Hopefully this information will go some way towards rectifying that for the members of Muscle Talk. HCG stands for Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin and is not a steroid, but a natural peptide hormone which develops in the placenta of pregnant women during pregnancy to controls the mother's hormones. (Incidentally, this is the reason you may hear of people testing for growth hormone (HGH) with a pregnancy testing kit - If their HGH shows 'pregnant', they've been ripped-off with cheaper HCG - but we digress slightly).

Its action in the male body is like that of LH, stimulating the Leydig cells in the testes to produce testosterone even in the absence of endogenous LH. HCG is therefore used during longer or heavier steroid cycles to maintain testicular size and condition, or to bring atrophied (shrunken) testicles back up to their original condition in preparation for post-cycle Clomid therapy. This process is necessary because atrophied testicles produce reduced levels of natural testosterone, this situation should be rectified prior to post-cycle Clomid therapy.

HCG administration post-cycle is common practice among bodybuilders in the belief that it will aid the natural testosterone recovery, but this theory is unfounded and also counterproductive. The rapid rise in both testosterone, and thus estrogen due to aromatization, from the administration of HCG causes further inhibition of the HPTA (Hypothalamic/Pituitary/Testicular Axis - feedback loop discussed above); this actually worsens the recovery situation. HCG does not restore the natural testosterone production.

The typically observed dosing of 2000 to 5000IU every 4 to 5 days causes such an increase in estrogen levels via aromatization of the natural testosterone that this has been responsible for many cases of gynecomastia.

From the above discussion it is clear that HCG is best used during a cycle, either to:

1) Avoid testicular atrophy, or
2) Rectify the problem of an existing testicular atrophy.

Doses of HCG
Smaller doses, more frequently during a cycle will give best overall results with least unwanted side effects. Somewhere between 500 IU and 1000IU per day would be best over about a two-week period. These doses are sufficient to avoid/rectify testicular atrophy without increasing estrogen levels too dramatically and risking gynecomastia. This dosing schedule also avoids the risk of permanently down-regulating the LH receptors in the testes.

Presentation and Administration of HCG
Synthetic HCG is often known as Pregnyl (generic name) and is available in 2500 IU and 5000 IU (not ideal for the above doses!). Administration of the compound is either by intra-muscular or subcutaneous injection. It comes as a powder which needs to be mixed with the sterile water. The powder is temperature-sensitive prior to mixing and should not be exposed to direct heat. After mixing, it should be kept refrigerated and used within a few weeks - though there are sterility issues which need to be considered after mixing.





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TweetOne other thing the only time i had gyno symptoms in my life wasnt when i was running 2.5 grams of test but when i used Hcg post cycle after a small 750mg a week cycle.

Do what you want just trying to help like the others were. If it was me i would leave the HCG unmixed and use it during my next cycle or if you have any test left run the HCG while tapering your test dose down then wait 2 weeks and run your PCT.

TweetAfter reading that again it's probably best not to use it especially if the cycle was'nt to long in duration. I just remember when people first started useing hcg they usually took it after the cycle like luke is talking about. Like everything we find better ways to use things.

TweetBump

TweetAs long as you stop using it a few days before PCT you are fine people...I run it throughout my cycles at 250iu EOD and at 250iu ed for a week after last injection....on all my cycles, but that is with long esters!

Tweet

Originally Posted by pigmeat

As long as you stop using it a few days before PCT you are fine people...I run it throughout my cycles at 250iu EOD and at 250iu ed for a week after last injection....on all my cycles, but that is with long esters!

Thats alot of HCG your nuts shrink up that bad?
Thats why i like to finish with short esters no guess work nothing wasted just straight into it. I see no reason why the way you do it wouldnt work. Just seems like a bit much to me is all.