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Originally posted by Small
I never recomended Proviron as "bridge", I don't belive in "bridge"
I recomended Proviron as part of post cycle threatment, and it has nothing to do with its suppose anti-estrogenic properties, BUT with its androgenic properties, to keep libido up and CNS from falling into depresion. And, because, as many studies show Proviron has none or very little effect on HPTA it would and DOES work very well right at the end of post cycle therapy.

you mentioned in a d-bol bridge discussion that a proviron bridge woulb be a much better option! I dont run it as a bridge though, i run it as you instructed me to...throughout pct- and a couple weeks past! I agree bridge was the wrong choice of words to be used.

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Originally posted by Nelson Montana
What would they prescribe it for? Nolva works as a site specific designed to combat tumors in the breast. Even clomid is pescribed as a fertility drug in women, not an anti e for me. Normally men don't need anti e's and isn't exactly at the top of the list of medical concerns.

OK, let's put it this way..if Proviron was thought to be effective anti-estrogen how come no studies was done to see how effective it is and compare to other anti-estrogens.
Even Clomid which specifically used as feftility drug was studied for it's effectiveness as anti-estrogen and compared to Nolvadex.
I don't think that science is THAT ignorent!

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Originally posted by Juice Authority
Whoa, whoa, whoa...you came into this discussion late in the game. If you go back through the thread you'll notice I've pretty much proved my own statement wrong with the relevant studies I posted that clearly shows Proviron is not suppressive to the hpta.

Better late then never

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Originally posted by Juice Authority
That's nice. What about this one...

Methods Find Exp Clin Pharmacol. 1984 Jun;6(6):331-7. Related Articles, Links


The effects of mesterolone, a male sex hormone in depressed patients (a double blind controlled study).

Itil TM, Michael ST, Shapiro DM, Itil KZ.

Based on computer EEG (CEEG) profiles, in high doses, antidepressant properties of mesterolone, a synthetic androgen, were predicted. In a double-blind placebo controlled study, the clinical effects of 300-450 mg daily mesterolone were investigated in 52 relatively young (age range 26-53 years, mean 42.7 years) male depressed outpatients. During 6 weeks of mesterolone treatment, there was a significant improvement of depressive symptomatology. However, since an improvement was also established during the placebo treatment, no statistically appreciable difference in the therapeutic effects of mesterolone was established compared to placebo. Mesterolone treatment significantly decreased both plasma testosterone and protein bound testosterone levels. Patients with high testosterone levels prior to treatment seem to have had more benefit from mesterolone treatment than patients with low testosterone levels. The degree of improvement weakly correlated to the decrease of testosterone levels during mesterolone treatment.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial

PMID: 6431212 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

HOLY SHIT! 350 to 400 mg proviron a day??? No wonder it depressed test levels. ANY steroid at insane dosages like that will suppress the HPTA. At the normal dosages of 25 mg to 50 mg ed, HPTA suppression is generally not seen.

TweetThis is the 'BEST DAMN THREAD' I have seen in a long time. I have been wondering when everyone would get interested in PCT and the fastest and safest HPTA recovery possible. I hope all this discussion will inspire everyone to think twice about their PCT and how they can make it better. I also hope that when everyone tries a new PCT they will post the results here so all can see and learn, I know I will. Good luck to all in this endevor!!!

Impossible

TweetI've been working with people for some time now on the Proviron/ herbal PCT and the results couldn't be better. Also, on the Elite board, as reluctant as a lot of guys were, many are dropping the Clomid and getting good results with the herbs.

I make only two exceptions to this rule.

One: If you've been on a long, heavy cycle, HCG is a must PC in conjunction with the Proviron and herbs. But take the HCG in 100IU doses 5 times a day for a week to 10 days -- not the usual 5000IU's once a week for 3 weeks. With the smaller doses there's less of a chance of gyno. And by keeping the duration short, you don't over sensitize the Leydig sells, which makes future applications more effective. In general, HCG shouldn't be used more than 3 times a year.

And Two: If you're really sensitive to gyno and begin to develop a lump, keep some nolva on hand. But you'd be surprissed how rarely it's needed.

And of course, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound a cure. By avoiding the worst gyno offenders, you can help to avoid the problem.

TweetBump...

TweetHigh SHBG is a positive thing post cycle. Deliberately trying to reduce SHBG levels is counter-productive to recovery.

Free, unbound steroid hormones are suppressive. Bound, inactive steroids hormones are not.

Post-cycle:
High SHBG = high total test, normal free test.
Low SHBG = low total test, nomal free test.

We should be aiming for our testes to produce as much total test as possble after a cycle.

Lowering SHBG may give the impression that you are fully recovered, but in general it's better to wait until you really ARE recovered..... i.e. your hormone levels are what they were before the cycle. And your SHBG levels are what they were before the cycle.

There are several meds which we can use to increase SHBG levels..... In fact we already use them in most cases.

Clomid and nolva are the two obvious ones. They both strongly increase SHBG levels. This is a good thing as we really need to recover from the low levels that were present during the cycle.

TweetThe effect of clomiphene citrate on sex hormone binding globulin in normospermic and oligozoospermic men.

Adamopoulos DA, Vassilopoulos P, Kapolla N, Kontogeorgos L.

The effect of clomiphene citrate (CG) on sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) was studied in 10 oligozoospermic patients with varicocele and 6 normospermic men. Plasma SHBG, testosterone (T), oestradiol (E2), FSH, LH, Prolactin (Prl), thyroxine (T4) and 17-OH-progesterone (17-OH-P) were determined before and during medication. SHBG concentration rose from 38.1 +/- 18.3 to 54.3 +/- 16.0 nmol/l (P less than 0.01), while T and E2 showed significant increases from 31.2 +/- 10.8 nmol/l and 24.6 +/- 5.4 pg/ml to 52.0 +/- 3.6 and 43.3 +/- 14.9, respectively in the oligozoospermic patients, with similar rises noted in the normospermic men. FSH, LH and 17-OH-P were markedly elevated while on CC, but Prl and T4 remained unchanged. The findings of this study indicated the CC causes an increase of SHBG concentration, which is probably related to the rise of E2 concentration. This SHBG change, combined with the intrinsic oestrogenic activity of CC might be one of the factors responsible, through a decrease of free T and a T to E2 imbalance, for the lack of significant effect on parameters of seminal quality in so treated patients.

TweetAs for proviron not being suppressive, yep I agree with the majority. I don't think any suppression would be significant, unless very high doses were used.

Tweetdrab: I think you're a little confused. How can having more available endogenous testosterone be suppressive??? It would just supress itself!

And levels can never be as high as during a cycle since extra androgens lower SHBG so that point doesn't make sense either.

And if more T is bound, you're suggesting that will equate to more total T? Sorry. You're misunderstanding the mechanism of SHBG.

But you do bring up one point which inadvertantly reinforces what I've been saying all along. Clomid raises SHBG which in turn LOWERS availabe testosterone. This above all else may be the reason Clomid is such a libido killer for a lot of guys.

TweetHi mate.

How can having more available endogenous testosterone be suppressive??? It would just supress itself!

Agreed, that's what I said. Available - i.e. unbound test is suppressive. Test which is bound to SHBG is not available.

And levels can never be as high as during a cycle since extra androgens lower SHBG so that point doesn't make sense either.

I'm not sure what you're referring to here mate..... What was that in response to?

And if more T is bound, you're suggesting that will equate to more total T? Sorry. You're misunderstanding the mechanism of SHBG.

Here's the best explanation I can give bro:

Total test = Bound test + Free test.

Free test is suppressive.

Bound test is not suppressive.

p.s. We're talking about test bound to SHBG, which has none of the intrinsic properties of free unbound available test. The only way that bound test can exert any effect at all is by becoming unbound.

Clomid raises SHBG which in turn LOWERS availabe testosterone. This above all else may be the reason Clomid is such a libido killer for a lot of guys.

Yes I agree, the lowered available test can certainly impact on libido. Add to this the estrogenic effects of clomid on certain parts of the brain, and we can see why so many report these effects from clomid.

This goes back to what I was saying earlier. Bound test has no effects. Free test does.

Tweetdrab: I'm still not sure we're on the same page.

Are you referring to free T while "on" or "off"? Once you're "off" the only free T would be endogenous, therfore non suppresive. As far as free T being suppressive while on, it's a moot point since any exogenous T will cause some supression. At any rate, the more free T , the better -- always. Bound test is essentially useless.


Incdentally, this was the imputus behind the supp "Unleashed" which I designed. Instead of concocting a bunch of chemicals that will attempt to act like exogenous T, the concept was to use natural substances that would lower SHBG and therefore raise Free T. So whether you're "on" or "off" you have more available testosteroe without suppression. It's pretty simple really and I'm sure a lot of companies will be copying the concept. But honestly, most supp companies are clueless as to how this stuff works.

Anyway, I think we're in agreement on everything except for the function of SHBG post cycle. I see no reason for SHBG to be elevated -- ever. It's the most overlooked aspect of anabolism.